256 replies to this topic

[concert andy]

I think that us as inhabitants of Earth, we have minimal inpact on the glabl enviorment. Yes, we do have some impact, but I would put it in the single digits to teens (at most) in percentage of what we have done compared to what a single volcano explosion.

A single volcano like the one in Iceland a couple of years ago, that does more to effect green house gasses than we do in a decade. And this is not the only volcano to erupt in our lifetime.

On top of that, a while ago there was a thread about no hurricane the summer after Katrina. If you remember there were a lot of Hurricanes that year. Well 5 years later we are back to lots of hurricanes? And the heat is pretty opressive this summer. Again WHY?

Because the sun is in it's cycle of activity and all the solar flares it creates makes the solar system hotter, meaning Earth is a little hotter too.

Also, throughout history we see patterns of extreme heat and extreme cold. Back in the day, we were not around to effect the eviornment, leading me to believe the Sun was the culprit then too.

I lean towards the Cycle of the sun for blaming of global warming. I am sure I will be in the minority here with this nonsense I spew. I also think it is a coincidence that Al Gore's movie shows increased green house gasses since 1950's. How do we know what the levels were before then? I saw his movie and imediately afterwards I was not convienced.

My brain thinks logistics all the time, and I think the sun has more impact on the weather patterns than we do.

[MeOmYo]

signed

[kenbud]

Yup too many factors to just blames us, but we could always help to try to make things a little better.

[Tim the Beek]

I'm guessing it's a combination of things, but if we are contributing to it, well, we shouldn't to whatever reasonable degree possible...

[TakeAStepBack]

Signed.

[TakeAStepBack]

The man made GW argument is full of holes, psuedo-science and selective data. I dont disagree we should be mindful of our environment and work with it, not try to conquer and squander it. But the weather pattern changes that are occuring also seem to be happening while the sun is making some rather remarkable changes in what we can observe.

[Smiles]

I'm facepalming so hard right now.

[Deadshow Dan]

Climate Change.

You can be blind to it.

You can ignore the science you don't understand like with words like: "How do we know what the levels were before then? " (btw, levals ) There are several methods. You may not understand them. I may or may not understand them.

But the vast, overwhelming number of scientist who do understand them agree.

Climate change is real. And it's no coincidence that we're experiencing the effects after ignoring the science

[TakeAStepBack]

I've read tons of the data from across the board and there is no common concensus other than "yup, AGW is real".

Sure it is, the question is what is causing it. That cause is not solidified.

[Jwheelz]

definately not sign'd

[TakeAStepBack]

In the 70s, the same groups that claim warming now, were claiming another ice age, or cooling.

It's simply educated guessing.

[Jwheelz]

Climate Change.

You can be blind to it.

You can ignore the science you don't understand like with words like: "How do we know what the levels were before then? " (btw, levals ) There are several methods. You may not understand them. I may or may not understand them.

But the vast, overwhelming number of scientist who do understand them agree.

Climate change is real. And it's no coincidence that we're experiencing the effects after ignoring the science

^this

[Tim the Beek]

Does make sense to me that if carbon emissions may be a factor, and research suggests that they may be, that we should be reducing them...

[Tim the Beek]

Plus, you know, there's that whole peak oil deal...we should be getting away from oil for that reason alone.

[TakeAStepBack]

Well, the CO2 argument is kinda the whole crux of the man made version of pscience on AGW.

It could hold merit, it could also be only a portion of the deal. It could be completely wrong. From all the stuff Ive read on it, it certainly doesn't add up as nicely as the crowd likes it to.

After that, I say:

[Tim the Beek]

STPKYS!!!

[jnjn]

i don't think anyone could say it's one OR the other...there are many contributing factors. either way does not negate the fact the we should all try to be a little more mindful of our changing environment & make better choices whenever we can

[concert andy]

Climate Change.

You can be blind to it.

You can ignore the science you don't understand like with words like: "How do we know what the levels were before then? " (btw, levals ) There are several methods. You may not understand them. I may or may not understand them.

But the vast, overwhelming number of scientist who do understand them agree.

Climate change is real. And it's no coincidence that we're experiencing the effects after ignoring the science

No I do understand the science. I saw Gore's movie. I watch the science channel and Nat Geo more than I would like to admit. I am a science geek.

We have a general idea of what the levels were, but not before 1950. We know what they were like 1000 years ago, and beyond that, by using the frozen ice in Antartica.

Climate change is real, but I feel it has more to do with the Sun than anything we will ever do (Sans a nuclear disaster).

Science says that a volcano eruption does more to the earth in terms of green house gases than we will do in a decade. This is a FACT. In my life time I can remember about 5 volcanos that errupted, and that is what I know of or that was reported on. I am sure, the islands in the pacific that are still being formed do to volcanic activity also have something to do with this on a daily basis.

[Deadshow Dan]

The big money always pushes this skepticism (first the whole thing was junk science, now the why is junk science, once the why then it'll be skepticism on effect of solutions) .

Shouldn't this level of skepticism be as high around their dirty, polluting extraction techniques? Their guaranteed off shore oil spills, the pollution and toxics from hydrofracking. etc. etc.

:shakes head:

[concert andy]

I am saying that yes cars, and factories do effect the enviorment, but not to the levals () that are mentioned by the media.

I feel it is in in the 10% range of what is actually going on in the world.

I think volcanos account for 30-40%, and the sun activity the other 50%.

[MeOmYo]

we should all buy carbon stamps to offset our guilt

[concert andy]

The big money always pushes this skepticism. Shouldn't this level of skepticism be as high around their dirty, polluting extraction techniques? Their guaranteed off shore oil spills, the pollution and toxics from hydrofracking. etc. etc.

:shakes head:

Pollution of the oceans, has nothing to do with global warming, I thought the argument was CO2 in the attmosphere, not our trash in rivers and oceans.

I agree they are both awful and we should do something to fix these man made problems, but I am talking about GLOBAL weather patterns, and how f'n hot it is outside.

Scientists say this year is the most activity they have seen since they have started recording Sun data, and each time the sun has cycled it gets more and more activity. When they first started following the cycles they were 7-9 years apart. Now they are 5-7 years apart. Increased activity of the sun.

[TakeAStepBack]

The big money always pushes this skepticism. Shouldn't this level of skepticism be as high around their dirty, polluting extraction techniques? Their guaranteed off shore oil spills, the pollution and toxics from hydrofracking. etc. etc.

:shakes head:

It could be. in my case Im dead against pollution creating techniques in energy. My belief (and that is really what this comes down to - belief, not science) on whether the AGW is man made or not does not revolve around monied interests. it revolves around the scientific evidence presented from all the angles Ive read on it. Which, back years ago was quite extensive.

[TakeAStepBack]

Pollution of the oceans, has nothing to do with global warming, I thought the argument was CO2 in the attmosphere, not our trash in rivers and oceans.

I agree they are both awful and we should do something to fix these man made problems, but I am talking about GLOBAL weather patterns, and how f'n hot it is outside.

Scientists say this year is the most activity they have seen since they have started recording Sun data, and each time the sun has cycled it gets more and more activity. When they first started following the cycles they were 7-9 years apart. Now they are 5-7 years apart. Increased activity of the sun.

Agreed. The argument is CO2 from the man made AGW crowd, not pollutants. It could all play its roll. But the sun, the planets rotation, our proximity to other systems, etc....must be considered as well on why we're going through the current planet "cycle" (if you want to call it a cycle being we dont have the longevity in recording to support it either way).

Like Andy said, it isn't the first tiome climate has changed on earth and it is doubtful it will be the last.

[concert andy]

PS. Did you know that a lot of those wind energy things, are actually killing off bats. because they pull the big swarm of them right into their blades and kill most of them.

Bats are needed to lower the bug population, another reason why there are extra bugs this season (and the winter did not freeze a lot of them off).

[concert andy]

Also, I heard recently that our rotation of the earth is actually a touch closer to the sun than it has been in 10000 years. They said 1000 years ago when the earth was a touch further away from the sun, this is when we had our last ice age.

I am just putting a + b + c = D. Not A = D because Al Gore says so.

[Deadshow Dan]

PS. Did you know that a lot of those wind energy things, are actually killing off bats. because they pull the big swarm of them right into their blades and kill most of them.

Bats are needed to lower the bug population, another reason why there are extra bugs this season (and the winter did not freeze a lot of them off).

My understanding is you are incorrect.

For one, most of the deaths of bats and bees appear to be pesticide related (and the white nose thing in bats)

Second there is some evidence that there are some problems with industrial size turbines, but it has more to do with disorientation and emf. There is some controversy around all this

Edited to add: That's my understanding, but I'm not a scientist.

[TakeAStepBack]

There is some controversy around all this


No disagreement there. The entire issue is controversial.

[Deadshow Dan]

There is some controversy around all this


No disagreement there. The entire issue is controversial.

Just to be clear, it's whether and how some species are being harmed by industrial wind turbines.

Cell towers too.

[elder]

Reagrdless whether or not we've caused the warming or its naturally occurring, we know what we're doing is not helping. We should want to stop that, right?

[concert andy]

Reagrdless whether or not we've caused the warming or its naturally occurring, we know what we're doing is not helping. We should want to stop that, right?

We should, but how do we?

[MeOmYo]

Anyone can help stop by not using power off the grid and parking the cars. Who is willing to do that?

(this is not sarcasm)

I think most everyone wants to stop but nobody is willing to give anything up. our conveniences are too important to us.

[concert andy]

Anyone can help stop by not using power off the grid and parking the cars. Who is willing to do that?

(this is not sarcasm)

I think most everyone wants to stop but nobody is willing to give anything up. our conveniences are too important to us.

Exactly. If it did not take an extra 45 minutes for me to take the train than it does for me to drive to work, I would take the train.

My point is what can be done that will not stop the economy?

If we all get rid of cars and walk or take public transportation, then less cars are being bought, and we lose jobs.

Just saying the solution is convoluted, and there are no easy solutions.

But the 10% of anything is small enough that ultimately the 90% factors, volcanos and the sun, are doing the most damage to GW.

[Java Time]

I think that us as inhabitants of Earth, we have minimal inpact on the glabl enviorment. Yes, we do have some impact, but I would put it in the single digits to teens (at most) in percentage of what we have done compared to what a single volcano explosion.

A single volcano like the one in Iceland a couple of years ago, that does more to effect green house gasses than we do in a decade. And this is not the only volcano to erupt in our lifetime.

On top of that, a while ago there was a thread about no hurricane the summer after Katrina. If you remember there were a lot of Hurricanes that year. Well 5 years later we are back to lots of hurricanes? And the heat is pretty opressive this summer. Again WHY?

Because the sun is in it's cycle of activity and all the solar flares it creates makes the solar system hotter, meaning Earth is a little hotter too.

Also, throughout history we see patterns of extreme heat and extreme cold. Back in the day, we were not around to effect the eviornment, leading me to believe the Sun was the culprit then too.

I lean towards the Cycle of the sun for blaming of global warming. I am sure I will be in the minority here with this nonsense I spew. I also think it is a coincidence that Al Gore's movie shows increased green house gasses since 1950's. How do we know what the levels were before then? I saw his movie and imediately afterwards I was not convienced.

My brain thinks logistics all the time, and I think the sun has more impact on the weather patterns than we do.

cyclical

as far as CO₂...trees and plants love it.

if we've done anything we've prolly prevented an ice age with our carbon emissions....

carbon emissions sounds like another term for farting

yes methane gas emissions...just said it sounds like a term for farting

[TakeAStepBack]

The one "solution" I always find hilarious is the carbon tax. How does taxation prevent anything?

[concert andy]

cyclical

as far as CO₂...trees and plants love it.

if we've done anything we've prolly prevented an ice age with our carbon emissions....

carbon emissions sounds like another term for farting

yes methane gas emissions...just said it sounds like a term for farting

I have been saying for ever, if every person planted 1 tree, or somekind of bush that will grow and loves CO2, that would be a simple solution.

[concert andy]

The one "solution" I always find hilarious is the carbon tax. How does taxation prevent anything?

The idea here is, companies that dump extreme amounts of CO2 would have to find another way to do so.

The tax being the thing that makes companies stay under the threshold.

[Phishfolk]

The one "solution" I always find hilarious is the carbon tax. How does taxation prevent anything?

Less jobs and higher gas prices people can't afford to go anywhere. Also people will be spending more of what they do have on the inflated price of food.

[TakeAStepBack]

The idea here is, companies that dump extreme amounts of CO2 would have to find another way to do so.

The tax being the thing that makes companies stay under the threshold.

That's how it is sold, sure. But that never happens. The big corps and Companies that utilize "above threshold" CO2 emmissions just pay a tax and then up their prices to offset the difference. Passing the tax onto consumers. It does not stop the emissions of the biggest offenders, it merely puts the little guy on the hook yet again. And then, emissions are still happening! So we didn't solve the problem and we hurt the little guy.

Terrible idea.

This is one of those things that takes cooperation by all humans to make an impact. People have to want to change their ways. The only other option in this regard is by brute force. Because as I pointed above even theft isnt going to do it. I'm against the use of force for shaping behavior in most cases (there are exceptions, but that isnt for here) just as much as Im against pollution. So I see a massive quandery on this.

[bigtoddy]

Follow the money and watch Al Gore's business dealings and you'll understand why he's that biggest scam artist out there.

There's no doubt that climate change is occurring, its been occurring since there was a climate.

Its extremely narcissist of us to think that we're doing it.

PS.... all the other planets in the solar system are experiencing temperature and weather changes. Did we do that too?

[Java Time]

I find it hard to believe that my HS chem teacher can separated hydrogen and oxygen from water at his desk and we in this day n age can't come up with something like a filtration system or something to safely separate emissions from factories industrial facilities cars, etc.

talk about renewable resources

[Smiles]

Volcanoes? Fer realz?

http://en.wikipedia...._climate_change

[TakeAStepBack]

I find it hard to believe that my HS chem teacher can separated hydrogen and oxygen from water at his desk and we in this day n age can't come up with something like a filtration system or something to safely separate emissions from factories industrial facilities cars, etc.

talk about renewable resources

Dont get me started. Electrolysis has already been proven to run cars emissions free. You wanna talk about monied interests?
Why aren't we running vehicles on water? It can be done, some are doing it and there si a reason this has never hit the consumer market as an option.

[Tim the Beek]

Not saying turbines and pesticides aren't an issue, but it's my understanding that the major contributor to bat mortality, at least in the Northeast, is White Nose Syndrome.

[MeOmYo]

I find it hard to believe that my HS chem teacher can separated hydrogen and oxygen from water at his desk and we in this day n age can't come up with something like a filtration system or something to safely separate emissions from factories industrial facilities cars, etc.

talk about renewable resources

Who said they can't? They can and some do. Implementing laws to require it is where it stops as this would put an overwhelming burden on an already downspiraling manufacturing sector.

[TakeAStepBack]

IPCC opinion on climate change is that the Earth's climate system is unequivocally warming, and it is more than 90% certain that humans are causing it through activities that increase concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, such as deforestation and burning fossil fuels.^[1][2][3][4] This scientific consensus is expressed in synthesis reports, scientific bodies of national or international standing, and surveys of opinion among climate scientists. Individual scientists, universities, and laboratories contribute to the overall scientific opinion via their peer-reviewed publications, and the areas of collective agreement and relative certainty are summarised in these high level reports and surveys.




Opinion, 90% certain, surveys of opinion, scientific opinion, areas of collective agreement, relative certainty.

The IPCC was caught manipulating data too.


This is why I am not onboard. There may be a slight truth to all of this man made stuff, but if all we have is collective agreement on opinions, I'll reserve my skepticism until the scientific data can be expressed in solid state, instead of opinionated (liquid).

[Deadshow Dan]

Follow the money and watch Al Gore's business dealings and you'll understand why he's that biggest scam artist out there.

:palmface: It's disgusting how they've gotten this lie into people's heads. And it has nothing to do with this topic, except for the illustration of the propaganda machine

We should, but how do we?

One thing they should do is solarize a vast amount of federal and state buildings, requiring the cells be US made

[TakeAStepBack]

Are you certain that it is the propaganda from one side that is lying, or could it be that you have fallen for a propaganda on the issue?


Just saying.

[concert andy]

Volcanoes? Fer realz?

http://en.wikipedia...._climate_change

I would think the top two returns San Diego State U and Scientific American can confirm that volcanic activity does more than we will ever do.

http://www.geology.s...te_effects.html

THE INFLUENCE OF VOLCANIC ERUPTIONS ON
THE OZONE, GREENHOUSE, AND HAZE EFFECTS

Volcanic eruptions can enhance all three of these climate effects to variable degrees. They contribute to ozone depletion, as well as to both cooling and warming of the earth's atmosphere. The role of volcanic eruptions on each climate effect is described below.


LAKI (1783) -- The eastern U.S. recorded the lowest-ever winter average temperature in 1783-84, about 4.8^OC below the 225-year average. Europe also experienced an abnormally severe winter. Benjamin Franklin suggested that these cold conditions resulted from the blocking out of sunlight by dust and gases created by the Iceland Laki eruption in 1783. The Laki eruption was the largest outpouring of basalt lava in historic times. Franklin's hypothesis is consistent with modern scientific theory, which suggests that large volumes of SO2 are the main culprit in haze-effect global cooling.
http://www.scientifi...canoes-affect-w

VOLCANIC ERUPTIONS inject ash and aerosol clouds into the atmosphere and produce more than 100 million tons of carbon dioxide each year.

[Deadshow Dan]

Are you certain that it is the propaganda from one side that is lying, or could it be that you have fallen for a propaganda on the issue?


Just saying.

Yes, I am certain that the specific deluge of crap thrown at Al Gore is propaganda from one side.

There ya go. /thread