101 replies to this topic

[TakeAStepBack]

It's not scare tactics TASB; it's reality. I'm sure there are some not so very pleasant neighborhoods close to you where this reality manifests itself daily.

I know one thing is for darn sure. If the TV ads are what gets your panties in a bunch, I see far more ads for young people to join the military than offering them a free meal.

how pleasant will those neighborhoods be when these programs suddenly become unavailable? Are you, as JP seems to be, under the impression that we are immune from economic calamity simply because "all sides do it"?

How safe will it be then? More safe? Is it safe now? Will providing food stamps make it better? Can you actually bring up any correlation to prove this causation?

I'm not for the military either. Ive railed against it enough. More than anyone else in this "room" has on this board, so if you're going to try and bring up the orange while we're discussing the apple, I'm going to have to laugh.
This isn't about that. This is about the entire direction of the country and this is simply a sign.

I still dont see one single person that is willing to discuss the economics of this idea. Nope. It's all right back tot he warm and fuzzy, or the complete nonsensical.

[gregoir]

I don't see you willing to have a rational discussion with anyone TASB. Your a great person in real life but your one giant asshole over here. Maybe a little self reflection on how you speak to people and how one should treat their fellow man in general is in order.

[deadheadskier]

Now we've moved over into scare tactics.

I'm not for the military either. Ive railed against it enough. More than anyone else in this "room" has on this board, so if you're going to try and bring up the orange while we're discussing the apple, I'm going to have to laugh.
This isn't about that. This is about the entire direction of the country and this is simply a sign.

I still dont see one single person that is willing to discuss the economics of this idea. Nope. It's all right back tot he warm and fuzzy, or the complete nonsensical.

Dave,

One thing I've always afforded you is respect in debate. We can disagree on something and move on, but don't be a condescending asshole. You're not that smart.

high horse.........get off it

[TakeAStepBack]

First of all, this thread started with me laughing at govt. infomercials for assistance targeting specific groups and states. It was quickly responded to under the impression of my position on food assistance. There was no debate on the subject from there because Im not going to be belittled and walk away. I will give back the same shit I receive inturn.

Did I say I was against the program? Nope.

Was my position on this matter preconceived and then tossed into the discussion in a belittling manner? Yup.

And we went from there. Tyr again on weho the assholes are.


But I get it. If I dont lock step with your group thing Im the asshole. Im cool with that.

And I think Ive exhausted my wish to hang here anymore. Since people seem to think they have me all figured out and can exact judgment prior to getting my position.

[gregoir]

yup keep deflecting. You really need to remember you are speaking to your friends on here. No one is going to listen to your position if it is not stated in a manner that is respectful. You seem to like to take the human factor our of politics. The problem is that is the most important factor.

[Spidergawd]

It's actually an interesting and important debate, Dave, and one to which you might have some interesting insight. I didn't mean to offend you up front, and I'm very sorry if I did. It was meant tongue-in-cheek. Having said that, though, you can't expect no engagement with an article like that. I think some valid and considered points were brought up here, and it's a shame that you're getting upset, even though there weren't any attacks. I think it's very valuable that you're not in "lock step" with everyone else. I actually don't see that there is much lockstep here, but I can respect your perception.

[Tim the Beek]

Dave, I get, as much as anyone in this thread, why this bothers you.

I would much rather see private parties within communities helping out those in need than the government taking from people under threat of imprisonment and/or violence, and giving to someone else.

I just think there are far more egregious, dangerous and unethical examples of that going on than food assistance.

You know I think this is all going to come crashing down under its own weight at some point anyway. But given the way our economic and political systems have been co-opted and corrupted - given that we're living under a corporate oligarchy - I can't get too worked up over the issue.

Too much to do to get ready for what's coming, to try to foster love and compassion, to try to help fix the food system, and to fit in some fun for me to get pissed about it. That's just me though.

[Tim the Beek]

And stick around, please. You make an important contribution.

[Spidergawd]

And stick around, please. You make an important contribution.

This. Really.

[Smiles]

And stick around, please. You make an important contribution.

[deadheadskier]

Im not going to be belittled and walk away. I will give back the same shit I receive inturn.

and I belittled you where and how?

where exactly did I give you shit for which you felt like sending it back my way?

If my contributions to the subject were off topic, sorry. If your true concern is about how that information is presented to the public, well then I'll express that I have no problem with the government funding infomercials regarding the availability of the program.

Why? Because it's not just reaching lazy people watching Ellen on their 42 inch flat screen and looking for a handout. It's reaching the friends and family of those in need who may want to help, but are stretched as thin as they can go in supporting themselves and have nothing left over to offer their loved ones. If they are aware of the programs, then they can point their loved ones in the direction of help.

The fact is that there's a fairly large disconnect between what the government can offer and what people in need know is available. That extends beyond food stamp programs. So, investing money in increasing the channels that communicate various services really doesn't bother me.

and yes, I do believe you make great contributions here. just don't fly off the handle at those of us who did nothing to attack you in the first place.

[china cat]

hmmmm if I wasn't lucky enough to currently live with my parents and work for my father I would probably be on government assistance. Yup just another freeloading scumbag.

Greg, I think you've brought up an really important point that addresses (one of) the root causes for the need for govt. assistance: the erosion of the family. I lived with my parents after my daughter was born (and for many years after) until I could step out on my own. What happened to our families? Parents unwilling to take in adult children who need help, or adult children unwilling to move back in with parents; fathers who walk away; women giving birth outside of marriage (myself included).. this is an economic issue but we should consider it a familial issue as well. Seems we've transferred many of the responsibilities of immediate families onto everyone else's families (for a host of complex reasons). Until we heal our families and remember our obligations to the lives we bring into the world, we will see more and more people turning to others for help.

I know some of this is about the economy and the ability to find employment but we can't disregard the reality that intact nuclear and extended families could alleviate a significant amount of the burden.

Having said that, I really don't mind tax dollars going to food for those less fortunate - I know many in need (and many came from troubled and broken homes hence more evidence for my original point) Now, having said that, I also know quite a few who receive food stamps and assistance who also drive newer cars than I do, have cell phones, computers, etc. Dave, you are, in some ways, correct in your critique of the American idea of poverty, but there are still many in real need thus I am willing to allow some to take advantage so that those who truly need can feed themselves and their children. I can't look at this, solely, as an economic issue, it's a human issue. The economy, after all, is a system designed to serve humans. Is it not? The debate becomes: how best do we run the economy/allocate funds in order for it to serve that purpose.

[PeaceFrog]

I have no problems whatsoever with raising our taxes and giving everyone a food allowance.

(oh noes! that means we'd have to pay someone to administrate!)

If you can't afford to pay your taxes, then the answer is simple... earn more.

[Spidergawd]

Good points China.

And for the record, I think Dave does raise some valid points about those that don't really need/abuse the system. That certainly needs to be addressed. However, I'm in no way prepared to scrap the system entirely and leave everyone else in the lurch. Any system will suffer some abuse. It doesn't mean it's a bad system overall.

[Tim the Beek]

Greg, I think you've brought up an really important point that addresses (one of) the root causes for the need for govt. assistance: the erosion of the family.

Only thing I'd add is not only family, but community...

[china cat]

I tend to agree with you JP and, yes, Tim: community. Neighbors who watched our kids and brought meals, etc... In defense of Dave, I think that's his point: we should take care of our own and those in the community (and let each community do that - though, I'd imagine, many communities accepting aid, are full of people who are just as bad off as their neighbors. I can't turn to my neighbor if her fridge is empty as well).

but to Dave, I think our point is, when community doesn't or can't work, we want some kind of safety net. I can think of nothing more that I would want my tax dollars to be spent on. Corporate welfare and the defense budget? Not so much.

I really do see your point though, Dave,.Should people be forced to give up income, at the risk of jail if they refuse, in order to provide for others? It's a worthwhile debate.

[china cat]

Dave you'll love this page https://www.facebook...taxationistheft

[PeaceFrog]

Good points China.

And for the record, I think Dave does raise some valid points about those that don't really need/abuse the system. That certainly needs to be addressed. However, I'm in no way prepared to scrap the system entirely and leave everyone else in the lurch. Any system will suffer some abuse. It doesn't mean it's a bad system overall.

Do you think that a viable solution to the allegations of abuse would be to give everyone a food allowance? Yes, I know this would be paid for by a tax hike.

And by the way, I never meant to say anything offensive to you... sorry for the misunderstanding.

[gregoir]

Community is a great option if you live in some nice little place. but lets be real. Ever been to Camden?

[PeaceFrog]

community didn't work during the great depression, which is why we began the social programs in the first place.

Now you got others envying the poor for receiving the benefits... why aren't we just glad that everyone is eating?

[Tim the Beek]

Greg, I'm not suggesting that community is a viable solution any longer - at least across the board. I'm suggesting that (sadly) part of the reason people need the assistance they do is that communities and their spirit have withered away. I bet there was a time in Camden when people took care of one another.

It would be a whole different discussion (one I'm probably not qualified to take part in in depth) as to why that has happened. But it has. And it's sad.

Part of a discussion I had with a wonderful woman on a wonderful day last weekend was my expressing that I'd very much like to see the defense budget slashed, and *part* of that money going to the FDA and USDA so that they might conduct independent testing on some of the products and life forms they're calling "safe" based on industry funded research.

I wouldn't mind part of it going to fund safety nets for people in real need, either.

Though I think that ultimate any viable solutions to these problems will have more to do with finding a way to balance out the income inequities we see - not by redistributing wealth, but by finding a way for corporations to reduce executive salaries and hire more people who actually get stuff done...

[PeaceFrog]

Does anyone actually think that "government wants more people on food stamps"?

[deadheadskier]

Greg, I'm not suggesting that community is a viable solution any longer - at least across the board. I'm suggesting that (sadly) part of the reason people need the assistance they do is that communities and their spirit have withered away. I bet there was a time in Camden when people took care of one another.

It would be a whole different discussion (one I'm probably not qualified to take part in in depth) as to why that has happened. But it has. And it's sad.

See Tim, in the little I know of you, I think you'd be more qualified to talk about the demise of communities and how to revivse them, than comment on macro-economic policy......because it's beyond corrupt and fucked with little viable representatives who want to restore communities as they once were. That's why the conversations get so circular like an uncleaned toilet bowl even here amongst friends.

I feel the same about just about everyone who partakes in such discussions in the P&R forum on the board even if I disagree with them from time to time. Joker, TASB, Vic, Spidergawd, Julius, Captain, Chinacat, Seany, Smiles, Teo; all of us. (if I missed your name in that inclusion folks, consider you part of "us" - our community)

.....yet that's what we do here in the P&R forum......sling mud on macro issues, ignore community and often sound like Micheal Savage to our friends.......

....so with that Tim......please continue to speak upon how to improve immediate communities..........you are more than qualified for that

[Julius]

Wow. A lot of you are taking this wayyy too seriously. gregoir of all people, holy shit!

Relax, it's just a discussion.

[gregoir]

Does anyone actually think that "government wants more people on food stamps"?

the same people that think being on food stamps/welfare somehow leads to a life of luxury.

[capt_morgan]

this argument is so 6 months ago



and i love everyone here!

[china cat]

the same people that think being on food stamps/welfare somehow leads to a life of luxury.

I don't think anyone said this? Creating more dependence though, maybe?

Luxury is subjective, ambiguous, and comparative by nature. Comparatively speaking, some receiving aid in this country live a life of luxury as compared to two billion others. Not that those two billion should be the standard upon which anyone else is judged, but I'd guess (I really don't know so I might have my head up my ass, in my nice little beach community), but it seems most Americans have some access to food, education, help with utility expenses, shelters, housing assistance... Not enough assistance, but the govt. is never going to take care of all its citizens needs, nor will it ever provide for them to the standard at which fellow Americans have gotten comfortable.

Isn't another root cause of this issue is the govt itself: through trade agreements, globalization, outsourcing of American jobs...

[china cat]

this argument is so 6 months ago



and i love everyone here!

Love you too, Aug. So much so, I'd ass your face if you wanted me to (if it was ok with Nikki, of course)

[china cat]

Greg, I'm not suggesting that community is a viable solution any longer - at least across the board. I'm suggesting that (sadly) part of the reason people need the assistance they do is that communities and their spirit have withered away. I bet there was a time in Camden when people took care of one another.

It would be a whole different discussion (one I'm probably not qualified to take part in in depth) as to why that has happened. But it has. And it's sad.

Part of a discussion I had with a wonderful woman on a wonderful day last weekend was my expressing that I'd very much like to see the defense budget slashed, and *part* of that money going to the FDA and USDA so that they might conduct independent testing on some of the products and life forms they're calling "safe" based on industry funded research.

Who the fuck is she?!?!?

[Tim the Beek]

Who the fuck is she?!?!?

Someone I met while you were off assing the Cap'n's face.

That was a beautiful afternoon we had...

[Lazy Lightning]

Have we won the "war on..." anything?? Poverty, drugs, crime, anything? Perhaps we could get closer if we chose to prioritize improving people's lives rather than locking them up (in private, "market" driven prisons, btw.)

Part of the problem is that EVERYTHING is made into a war rather than a solution.

Start out with that intent, and very little that is actually productive will result. The framing of the situation does matter - if you start out with the idea that it's all about a fight, well, you're gonna get yourself a fight.

[Tim the Beek]

One more opinion kinda tangentially related to this...as someone who is a proponent of free markets, I find Federal farm policy far more offensive than more people being on food stamps. For instance, taking money from me at point of gun and giving it to people so that they won't grow food is beyond fucked.

[Tim the Beek]

and i love everyone here!

[beerzrkr]

One more opinion kinda tangentially related to this...as someone who is a proponent of free markets, I find Federal farm policy far more offensive than more people being on food stamps. For instance, taking money from me at point of gun and giving it to people so that they won't grow food is beyond fucked.

I’ll see your “ We pay folks to grow nothing” and raise you with an “Ethanol”, We burn our food. WTF is that??????

[Tim the Beek]

Another one of my favorites, yup...

[Tabbooma]

Yes, Glen Beck and his brained washed followers do, its all part of the big conspiracy the dems are using to turn poor folk against the rich

Does anyone actually think that "government wants more people on food stamps"?

[MeOmYo]

One more opinion kinda tangentially related to this...as someone who is a proponent of free markets, I find Federal farm policy far more offensive than more people being on food stamps. For instance, taking money from me at point of gun and giving it to people so that they won't grow food is beyond fucked.

and the market thrives around that. you cannot raise pigs, beefers or chicken for even close to what you can buy them for in the store. There is no question of the difference in quality but in my experiences, for those that are barely making ends meet, buying local is not an option. It's just too costly.

This is just meats. vegetables and fruits are ridiculously overpriced garbage in most stores IMO.

[Joker]

Yes, Glen Beck and his brained washed followers do, its all part of the big conspiracy the dems are using to turn poor folk against the rich

lol Beck followers having brains to be washed

[Tim the Beek]

and the market thrives around that. you cannot raise pigs, beefers or chicken for even close to what you can buy them for in the store. There is no question of the difference in quality but in my experiences, for those that are barely making ends meet, buying local is not an option. It's just too costly.

This is just meats. vegetables and fruits are ridiculously overpriced garbage in most stores IMO.

Not sure I follow...if there weren't all of the intervention there is, prices would find some sort of supply/demand equilibirum, no?

And if we, as a country, can't afford to eat meat at its real cost, then we prolly shouldn't be doin' it, prolly. Though I have a longstanding bias about meat in general, and that may color my opinion.

[Tabbooma]

You would be surprised, Tabboomas brother who is a genius regurgitates Beck. Crazy, no idea what happened to him, that is what happened to Tabbooma's brother

lol Beck followers having brains to be washed

[MeOmYo]

Not sure I follow...if there weren't all of the intervention there is, prices would find some sort of supply/demand equilibirum, no?

And if we, as a country, can't afford to eat meat at its real cost, then we prolly shouldn't be doin' it, prolly. Though I have a longstanding bias about meat in general, and that may color my opinion.

if you mean by removing factory farming from the equation, then probably. the bulk of cost in raising your own meat is in the grain. my point is that currently these factory farms are thriving becuase they can do it for far less than we can. Also, this is pointed at community taking care of itself. We don't see this much anymore because it's just not cost effective and resort to inhumane and unnatural raised and fed livestock to feed ourselves. those that do choose to buy local heathier meats, pay more.

I can say that in my area there is a decent bit of locally raised livestock available. Sadly, most of these people do not do this for profit but do this so their land can be classified as agriculture. So, typically they lose money on their "farm" but more than make up for it in their land taxes. Even more unfortunate is that this is the only way many people can afford to keep lands that have been passed down for generations. But, I digress.

[Lazy Lightning]

I'm just waiting for the "ObramaCare will PUT me on food stamps since I now HAVE to buy health insurance" argument to begin...

Don't let me down, fellow boardies!

[Tim the Beek]

You don't HAVE to buy insurance. You can pay a "tax" instead. Which will help pay for the food stamps I'm gonna have to get because I have to buy health insurance now.

[Tim the Beek]

It's the precedent, more than anything, which bothers me.

What else can we be told to do or be punished for not toeing the line?

[Lazy Lightning]

You don't HAVE to buy insurance. You can pay a "tax" instead. Which will help pay for the food stamps I'm gonna have to get because I have to buy health insurance now.

Hey, I line in MA, I'm already living in that system! Now, if only I could find someone who would sell me insurance...

[gregoir]

lol Beck followers having brains to be washed

I've been following Beck for years. His funky ass grooves washed my brain years ago.

[Joker]

I've been following Beck for years. His funky ass grooves washed my brain years ago.

[capt_morgan]

[nikkiblue]

First, I love this thread, and everyone in it.

Second, I think everyone has missed what Dave is really bitching about.... The fact that our Gov't is encouraging people so spend more money that it doesnt have. Dave's passion is the money aspect, not so much feeding the poor.

I see what your saying Dave. Coming from someone who has recently needed public assistance, I'm grateful the system is in place, and I;m just not knowledgeable enough to predict what will happen when the gov't "runs out of money'....It just seems like the whole monetary system is sort of fake to me.

And whoever said (I don't feel like scrolling up to quote..) that food stamps only pay for junk food, has no clue. Food Stamps pay for Food. What kind of food the person chooses to purchase, is up to them. And WIC only pays for healthy food for children and pregnant mothers. 2 different programs. (at least in NY)

[Smiles]

Kareoke weekend at the suicide shack