122 replies to this topic

[syd_25]

5 cops to subdue one person.... and with 5 they still need batons and a taszer..... He didn't showor have a weapon. This is inexcusable.

And if they are found to be ok within the police policy I would hope charges are brought against the Chief.

But whether all of it is true, or none of it is true, or some of it is true, the guy died at the hands of the police. That fact is not in question.

exactly

[Mind Left Body]

I was just making a point showing the picture that this is what happened to him when he quote unquote "resisted". What was the problem with him sitting there with his legs out and leaning back? He wasn't in a position to attack anyone and the cop had a baton in his hand. He clearly wasn't threatened at all. Bottomline here is he died at the hands of the police. For what? I guess the cops should beat to death all schizophrenic people they come across because they they didn't put their hands on their knees while sticking their legs straight out. Yea...makes perfect sense.

[Joker]

I disagree 100%. His actions could have caused him to be arrested, maybe. His actions could have caused him to be detained. I see nothing here where his actions were cause for him to die. Even without dying, he got a hell of a beating. Ever been in a fight? There is a point when you stop beating the other guy. That point is usually before his pulse stops. Even if it is five against one. Your response that it wasn't entirely his fault, that is you saying "the cops could have said fuck it and just let the guy do whatever he wanted to do." just shows your disregard for this man's life. Are you saying the only choices were to comply 100% or die? That after he choose to lie about his name that the only solution was the final solution? I'm not familiar with Fullerton Police Tactics, but I assume that there are other choices.

Were they "beating" on the guy or just trying to control him? I know he took a couple of hits from the batons at first when he appeared to be fleeing but after that I didn't see anybody swinging and it appeared to be all about getting him under control.

I've been involved in more fights than I care to remember, both one on one and gang fights involving knives, bottles, bats and once where we were shot at, I've also been on the other side and had to break up fights so I have a very good idea how these things go down.

This wasn't a case of a guy getting beaten until his pulse stopped.

How does my response show disregard for the man's life?

No, I'm not saying the choice was comply or die. What I'm saying is that if he had given the cops his name at the start, things probably wouldn't have escalated, a tragic accident could have been avoided and he'd probably still be alive today.

[MeOmYo]

Joker, do we still have a right to remain silent? If we exercise that right, does it deserve a beating?

[deadheadskier]

Were they "beating" on the guy or just trying to control him? I know he took a couple of hits from the batons at first when he appeared to be fleeing but after that I didn't see anybody swinging and it appeared to be all about getting him under control. .

Joker,

One of the cops admitted to smashing the hell out of the guys face with the but end of the taser. How is that "controlling" and not "beating"?

No man suffers the kind of injuries Kelly did without being beaten severely. That doesn't happen by "controlling"

Come on man, you are really grasping at straws.

[Joker]

Joker, do we still have a right to remain silent? If we exercise that right, does it deserve a beating?

As far as I know we do. Definitely doesn't deserve a beating and from what I've seen it doesn't appear that's what happened here

[Mind Left Body]

Joker, One of the cops admitted to smashing the hell out of the guys face with the but end of the taser. How is that "controlling" and not "beating"? No man suffers the kind of injuries Kelly did without being beaten severely. That doesn't happen by "controlling" Come on man, you are really grasping at straws.

And there it is...

[Joker]

Joker, One of the cops admitted to smashing the hell out of the guys face with the but end of the taser. How is that "controlling" and not "beating"? No man suffers the kind of injuries Kelly did without being beaten severely. That doesn't happen by "controlling" Come on man, you are really grasping at straws.

Yes, he was hit in the face because he was still resisting despite having been tased and having 5 cops trying to pin him down to control him. That's probably the next step in the progression for the use of force. It's not like they started out with the intent to beat the guy let alone beat him to death.

[Mind Left Body]

Yes, he was hit in the face because he was still resisting despite having been tased and having 5 cops trying to pin him down to control him. That's probably the next step in the progression for the use of force. It's not like they started out with the intent to beat the guy let alone beat him to death.

Just so I have this straight....It's ok for 5 cops to pummel an unarmed man in the face to control him?

[deadheadskier]

Yes, he was hit in the face because he was still resisting despite having been tased and having 5 cops trying to pin him down to control him. That's probably the next step in the progression for the use of force. It's not like they started out with the intent to beat the guy let alone beat him to death.

but beat him to death they did and for that, all five of them should go to jail for a LONG time.

no excuse for it. NONE

[Joker]

Just so I have this straight....It's ok for 5 cops to pummel an unarmed man in the face to control him?

That would probably depend on the circumstances. I imagine it's possible a judge could rule it acceptable if he believed there was no other acceptable alternative.

[MeOmYo]

Yes, he was hit in the face because he was still resisting despite having been tased and having 5 cops trying to pin him down to control him. That's probably the next step in the progression for the use of force. It's not like they started out with the intent to beat the guy let alone beat him to death.

You're wrong, one of them stated they were going to when Kelly was acting within his legal right.

[Joker]

but beat him to death they did and for that, all five of them should go to jail for a LONG time. no excuse for it. NONE

Well that's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it but I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the courts say about it.

[Mind Left Body]

I watched the video again. While he had legs out and hands on his knees the cop CLEARLY says "See these fists? They are going to fuck you up". Is that how cops treat people complying. It's right there in the video. What would you do in that situation? Wouldn't you be afraid?

Also I clearly saw the cop beating him in the face with the taser. I could see the wires flailing about. C'mon Joker...you got to see it.

[vic]

still resisting despite having been tased

seizing is resisting

[vic]

C'mon Joker...you got to see it.

that doesn't matter at all...this is someone with a sociopathic mentality that will give you the same responses that an internal affairs or PD PR person would give...it's a dangerous mentality that is allowed into law enforcement and expected of all officers...the ones who go against this be damned...it is a gang with a code that no one in said gang should dare disobey, and why the best cops you'll get are merely assessories if not participants because they know anything more will have dire consequences

[Joker]

I watched the video again. While he had legs out and hands on his knees the cop CLEARLY says "See these fists? They are going to fuck you up". Is that how cops treat people complying. It's right there in the video. What would you do in that situation? Wouldn't you be afraid? Also I clearly saw the cop beating him in the face with the taser. I could see the wires flailing about. C'mon Joker...you got to see it.

Then you also saw him repeatedly disobeying the cop and lying to him right before he said that? In that situation I would have done what the cop told me to do and I'm pretty sure I'd have walked away. No, I wouldn't have been afraid because I would have done as I was told rather than break the law and give him a reason to arrest me.

He was hit in the face, I said as much already. I also see the reason behind them having to do so

[Java Time]

giving a false name to a cop is a crime...so in this case...no you can't lie to the cops

if the gentleman complied from the get go...he'd still be around wouldn't he?

I'm not condoning the officers' actions but as I may have posted many a time "when are we going to hold ourselves responsible for our own actions?"

this is another case broadcasted to the masses with a clear message...

fuck with the police = getting fucked by the police

yet we keep doing it and we still only blame the police.

and let's not use this man's mental ilness as an excuse...he clearly knew what was right and wrong at the time of this incident

[MeOmYo]

Then you also saw him repeatedly disobeying the cop and lying to him right before he said that? In that situation I would have done what the cop told me to do and I'm pretty sure I'd have walked away. No, I wouldn't have been afraid because I would have done as I was told rather than break the law and give him a reason to arrest me. He was hit in the face, I said as much already. I also see the reason behind them having to do so

How did he break the law?

[Joker]

How did he break the law?

Lying to the cops for starters

[Mind Left Body]

Then you also saw him repeatedly disobeying the cop and lying to him right before he said that? In that situation I would have done what the cop told me to do and I'm pretty sure I'd have walked away. No, I wouldn't have been afraid because I would have done as I was told rather than break the law and give him a reason to arrest me. He was hit in the face, I said as much already. I also see the reason behind them having to do so

Then he complied and was told he was going to get fucked up. The moment he complied(and he did) there was no reason to threaten him with violence. It's right there in the video. If you don't see it, then that is your fault.

[vic]

giving a false name to a cop is a crime...so in this case...no you can't lie to the cops if the gentleman complied from the get go...he'd still be around wouldn't he? I'm not condoning the officers' actions but as I may have posted many a time "when are we going to hold ourselves responsible for our own actions?" this is another case broadcasted to the masses with a clear message... fuck with the police = getting fucked by the police yet we keep doing it and we still only blame the police. and let's not use this man's mental ilness as an excuse...he clearly knew what was right and wrong at the time of this incident

that's all well and good if this guy was merely arrested...you're leaving out the cop making violent threats, telling him to stop resisting after being tased which it is a well known fact causes one to seize so they cannot remain still, and smashing his face in. which cicinelli states as "beating his face to hell" with the butt of his taser...and don't forget the fireman who said when he arrived on the scene the policemen were doing absolutely nothing to treat his motionless body while being treated for minor wounds

[MeOmYo]

Lying to the cops for starters

wasn't aware that was a law. from what I've seen, he did not give a false name.

have fun in your police state. Obey!

[Mind Left Body]

giving a false name to a cop is a crime...so in this case...no you can't lie to the cops if the gentleman complied from the get go...he'd still be around wouldn't he? I'm not condoning the officers' actions but as I may have posted many a time "when are we going to hold ourselves responsible for our own actions?" this is another case broadcasted to the masses with a clear message... fuck with the police = getting fucked by the police yet we keep doing it and we still only blame the police. and let's not use this man's mental ilness as an excuse...he clearly knew what was right and wrong at the time of this incident

He gave no name which isn't a crime. The only thing he lied about was being able to speak english.

So that deserves a pummeling? I don't think so.

[Java Time]

that's all well and good if this guy was merely arrested...you're leaving out the cop making violent threats, telling him to stop resisting after being tased which it is a well known fact causes one to seize so they cannot remain still, and smashing his face in. which cicinelli states as "beating his face to hell" with the butt of his taser...and don't forget the fireman who said when he arrived on the scene the policemen were doing absolutely nothing to treat his motionless body while being treated for minor wounds

I hear ya I'm thinking the cops went too far in this one...it just irks me a bit how we still coveniently omit the cause to soapbox the result.

[Mind Left Body]

I hear ya I'm thinking the cops went too far in this one...it just irks me a bit how we still coveniently omit the cause to soapbox the result.

I'm certainly not saying he was in the right. He tested their patience some but they are trained to deal with people like that. The cop who said he was going to fuck him up clearly lost his professionalism at that point. That is when the real trouble started the way I see it.

[Joker]

Then he complied and was told he was going to get fucked up. The moment he complied(and he did) there was no reason to threaten him with violence. It's right there in the video. If you don't see it, then that is your fault.

Yes, I saw it. And then he interrupts the cop telling him to "start punching dude" before the cop finishes his sentence saying "IF you don't fucking start listening." Then the guy stops complying for about the tenth time so the cop once again tells the guy to put his hands on his knees and the guy says he's "sick of playing fucking games," then he grabs at the cop's arm, jumps up and starts making a move to leave. It's right there in the video. If you don't see it, then that is your fault.

It looks like this video starts at the point where they plan on arresting this guy. The cop's attitude changes from what it was in the first video and he's putting on the gloves so he's probably expecting there's going to be physical contact.

It really sucks it went down the way it did but putting this all on the cops is just plain wrong. They were all for letting him go once he gave them his name. If he had just done that, we're not discussing this at all.

[Joker]

wasn't aware that was a law. from what I've seen, he did not give a false name. have fun in your police state. Obey!

Neither was I

I guess they charge you with hindering an investigation or obstruction.

It's your state too, we see what can happen to those who don't obey

[MeOmYo]

Joker justifying cops killing someone. If he'd a just listened to us, we wouldn't have had to kill him.

[MeOmYo]

it is people like you that are fucking up this country

[vic]

It's your state too, we see what can happen to those who don't obey

there you have it.

[TakeAStepBack]

Inexcusabe. But all to common these days. Rule of law be damned from all angles.

[Mind Left Body]

Yes, I saw it. And then he interrupts the cop telling him to "start punching dude" before the cop finishes his sentence saying "IF you don't fucking start listening." Then the guy stops complying for about the tenth time so the cop once again tells the guy to put his hands on his knees and the guy says he's "sick of playing fucking games," then he grabs at the cop's arm, jumps up and starts making a move to leave. It's right there in the video. If you don't see it, then that is your fault. It looks like this video starts at the point where they plan on arresting this guy. The cop's attitude changes from what it was in the first video and he's putting on the gloves so he's probably expecting there's going to be physical contact. It really sucks it went down the way it did but putting this all on the cops is just plain wrong. They were all for letting him go once he gave them his name. If he had just done that, we're not discussing this at all.

Joker..I like you. You know this. I think your point of view on cops vs public is skewed due to the line of work you are in. You deal with unruly people all the time so when you see this type of thing happen, I think your knee jerk reaction is to side with the police.

I know you understand right from wrong and it's my opinion this was wrong and excessive.

Did he need to be subdued? Yes, that is clear but you can do that without pummeling the guy. Especially with five cops.

[deadheadskier]

He was hit in the face, I said as much already. I also see the reason behind them having to do so

Exactly what was the reason the cop had to smash Kelly in the face with the butt end of taser while five cops were on top of him? Why was that warranted?

[Joker]

It's all good, people are going to disagree and see things from different PoV, that's just life. As long as we can discuss things civilly, I have no problem with you being wrong when you don't agree with me


It'll be interesting to see how this plays out in court.

[Joker]

Exactly what was the reason the cop had to smash Kelly in the face with the butt end of taser while five cops were on top of him? Why was that warranted?

I haven't heard the testimony yet so I have no idea what their reasoning was other than possibly the next step up in their use of force tactics. Probably arguing that the tasor didn't do the job and there was no other, safer way to subdue him.

[deadheadskier]

It's all good, people are going to disagree and see things from different PoV, that's just life. As long as we can discuss things civilly, I have no problem with you being wrong when you don't agree with me It'll be interesting to see how this plays out in court.

answer my question. Why was it acceptable for the cop to smash Kelly in the face when five cops were on top of him.

[vic]

negligence after the fact needs to be brought to the table as well, as the fireman who showed up on the scene said the police were doing nothing to treat thomas as he laid motionless

and would anyone care to comment on what the difference is between seizing after being tased and resisting?

[deadheadskier]

I haven't heard the testimony yet so I have no idea what their reasoning was other than possibly the next step up in their use of force tactics. Probably arguing that the tasor didn't do the job and there was no other, safer way to subdue him.

You are back tracking. You said " I also see the reason behind them having to do so"
So you are defending the cop smashing him the face with the butt end of the taser.

[syd_25]

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out in court.

Unfortunately there will be no justice for Kelly. That ship has sailed.

[GoPlastic]

This wasn't a case of a guy getting beaten until his pulse stopped.

this was a case of a guy getting beaten until he went comatose, as he choked on his own blood because his thorax was crushed.

that close enough for ya?

[deadheadskier]

would anyone care to comment on what the difference is between seizing after being tased and resisting?

I won't comment on that. What I will comment on is basic human physiology. "Resisting" isn't always a conscious decision. Fight or Flight reflex is not a conscious decision. If the body thinks that it is potentially going to be severely harmed or killed, it will resist without conscious thought by sending massive amounts of adrenaline to the muscles and doing whatever is possible to remove the stimulus causing that reflex. Already having been beaten with a baton and having four guys on top of you preventing you from breathing will cause that.

[Joker]

You are back tracking. You said " I also see the reason behind them having to do so" So you are defending the cop smashing him the face with the butt end of the taser.

Just because I can see a reason why they would have to do it, it doesn't mean I'm defending them doing it. If they had a better, safer option they could have used it then they should have used that.

[Java Time]

flight or flight being involuntary is not the police's concern and is not a valid excuse when a crime is committed and facts are facts the dude broke the law however trivial that it may have been.

[Java Time]

I'm certainly not saying he was in the right. He tested their patience some but they are trained to deal with people like that. The cop who said he was going to fuck him up clearly lost his professionalism at that point. That is when the real trouble started the way I see it.

can't argue with that.

[MeOmYo]

How did he break the law?

[Depends]

How did he break the law?

he didn't break the law. The law broke his face....

[Java Time]

ok...last time you cannot give a false name to the police...that's a crime


and apparently in that neck of the woods a crime punishable by death

think it's a low level fraud felony

[MeOmYo]

I must have missed him giving a false name. From what i saw he didn't answer when asked his name.

[Java Time]

I must have missed him giving a false name. From what i saw he didn't answer when asked his name.

Sent from my LG phonehttp://m.ocregister.com/video/?lineupId=1125998380&play=now

if this works it has the full vid...@ a minute or two into video right before he says he doesn't speak english.