97 replies to this topic

[TheDHJ]

I eat and love foie, I care about the animals, this is ridiculous.

http://www.cbsnews.c...-foie-gras-ban/

[Tim the Beek]

Very pro using anything possible of an animal that's killed for people's sustenance. Very con using farming practices which cause animals organ damage.

One man's opinion...

[deadheadskier]

completely ridiculous

FUCK Peta

One of my prouder life/work accomplishments was organizing Maine chefs to thwart a ban when it came up in 2009. I know numerous people who have been working their asses off for years to repeal this ban. I feel real bad for them, the duck farmers, chefs and people of California who can no longer enjoy a perfectly humane and decadent duck experience.

[TheDHJ]

Very pro using anything possible of an animal that's killed for people's sustenance. Very con using farming practices which cause animals organ damage. One man's opinion...

I can respect that. I like the stuff, and will continue eating it.

I had liquified foie stuffed rabbit with foie medallions on top at Le Salle a Manger in Montreal recently.

[TheDHJ]

completely ridiculous FUCK Peta One of my prouder life/work accomplishments was organizing Maine chefs to thwart a ban when it came up in 2009. I know numerous people who have been working their asses off for years to repeal this ban. I feel real bad for them, the duck farmers, chefs and people of California who can no longer enjoy a perfectly humane and decadent duck experience.

How do you tell Thomas Keller to stop serving foie gras at the French Laundry?

[deadheadskier]

you're not too far from Hudson Valley Foie Gras Tim. I suggest you go and see first hand how these ducks are raised. I can guarantee you that after your visit, you'd be less inclined to eat chicken than you would Foie.

[TheDHJ]

Ryan, I'm glad you chimed in.

[TheDHJ]

Here's the pro foie gras argument.

[Tim the Beek]

I get out that way once in a while, Ryan, I just might...though my diet, especially when it comes to meat, is pretty unusual, and I'd be very, very unlikely to buy either that someone else had raised and killed.

[deadheadskier]

I get out that way once in a while, Ryan, I just might...though my diet, especially when it comes to meat, is pretty unusual, and I'd be very, very unlikely to buy either that someone else had raised and killed.

I fully respect that and think it's awesome you'll only eat meat you've raised yourself. I did not know that and think it's incredible.

I just hate the propaganda surrounding the Foie controversy. It's all about misinformation and big money lobbyist such as PETA attacking small money farms, such as the three Foie Gras producers in the country because they don't have the money to go after larger meat farming industries such as the chicken industry.

I can tell you that the Foie being raised in this country is about as humanely raised lifestock that exists. Temple Grandin has consulted on the facility design and operational procedures for Hudson Valley Foie. It is the cleanest farm with the most humane raising and slaughter of animals possible.

[deadheadskier]

the video Josh posted. Go to the 35 second mark and see the ramps. At the top of the ramp is the ducks water supply. That design feature is Temple's. It's to strengthen the ducks legs so they don't have unnecessary stress on their legs when they mature to adulthood.

[Jabadoodle]

About the video:

0:33 "A few twisted angry people would like to take your foie gras away. These fanatical stealth vegan extremists believe that the forcefeeding of ducks to plumb their liver is actually cruel." -- This is obviously not going to be a calm reasoned argument but rather biased view that attacks the other side. Something I can't support no matter what side I'm on.

0:36 "...vegan extremists believe that the force feeding of ducks to plumb their liver is actually cruel." -- The exact requirements of "cruel" can be debated, just look at the debates that have gone on about what constitutes "torture" as applied to humans. Still, what argument can ever be made (in a non medical setting) that "force feeding" is a good or even neutral thing? It may not qualify as "cruel" but on a scale where zero-is-neutral, force feeding is surely somewhere on the negative side, right?

0:45 "[they want] ...to outlaw something they’ve never even tried..." -- Bordain should stick to talking about food and leave the arguments to people that can think straight. Do I have to try murder or spousal abuse to know it's wrong?

1:28 "She's nice. She likes animals. She's not evil." -- Again, demonizing sides (which all parties tend to do) is a tactic I just can't stand. Let's get to the root of the issue, not try to make people devils or saints

2:29 Here is where the pipe is actually put down the duck's throat. -- Even with the doctor's assurance that this does not cut off their air-way and that they have a lining so that this is not painful -- watch this a few times, see the pipe expanding the duck's throat -- and tell me this is pleasurable for the duck. Again on a scale where -10 is horrid torture, zero is neutral, and +10 is a wonderful life -- this may not be "cruel" but can anyone here tell me they think this treatment does not fall on the negative side of the scale?

Then there are more of Bordain's arguments/reasons (like "[the activists] don't concern themselves with MY liver") that really are just noise to a reasoned discussion.


Next up...the real question...

[Jabadoodle]

So what is the argument for supporting the consumption of Foie Gras? You can't say it's a necessity. You can't say the ducks would prefer to be inside with hundreds of other ducks as opposed to being free. You can't say they are better off being force fed. ~ You can say it's less-painful than other ways we treat animals. You can say that some of the tactics used by the people that want to ban it are unfair or wrong. But is that really a reason to support it? Seems to me (and maybe I'm being unfair here?) that the argument for consuming Foie Gras is: It tastes good, we like it, and we can.

By the way, I'm not necessarily for a ban on Foie Gras. I almost certainly would support bans on the worst, most painful ways that some animals are treated. As the treatment moves away from the very worst and gets closer and closer to more borderline/debatable treatment, I'd prefer the issue be left up to trying to be sure individuals are making fully informed decisions rather than use the force of law.

[Julius]

OK, as the only guy here from CA, they over-regulate the FUCK out of everything already and spend hundreds of millions of dollars on debating fifty cent issues state-wide and that counts more to me than the actual issue at hand. I want to talk about fixing the important stuff.

[Jabadoodle]

I hear ya, Pearce. I often talk about the need to focus on root-cause issues over the issue de jure. I do like debating these type of issues with friends though -- it's a way to see how they think and decide moral outcomes in situations that aren't about any in-the-moment issue between them and I. It's an interesting way to size people up. Do they resort to flawed reasoning. Do they get upset. Do they back down. Do they stand their ground at any cost, no able to admit a bad position. Do they keep respect even when disagreeing.

[Smiles]

Force feeding seems pretty cruel. But so is debeaking, a common poultry industry practice. So is keeping animals in pens so small they can't move. So is restricting movement of baby cows. If you don't want to inflict these cruelties, you probably shouldn't eat the foods produced by them.

I remember seeing something about cruelty free foie gras. A spanish farmer who doesn't force feed. It might have even been bordains show.

I think Jabadoodle hits the nail squarely on the head here.

So what is the argument for supporting the consumption of Foie Gras? You can't say it's a necessity. You can't say the ducks would prefer to be inside with hundreds of other ducks as opposed to being free. You can't say they are better off being force fed. ~ You can say it's less-painful than other ways we treat animals. You can say that some of the tactics used by the people that want to ban it are unfair or wrong. But is that really a reason to support it? Seems to me (and maybe I'm being unfair here?) that the argument for consuming Foie Gras is: It tastes good, we like it, and we can. By the way, I'm not necessarily for a ban on Foie Gras. I almost certainly would support bans on the worst, most painful ways that some animals are treated. As the treatment moves away from the very worst and gets closer and closer to more borderline/debatable treatment, I'd prefer the issue be left up to trying to be sure individuals are making fully informed decisions rather than use the force of law.

[TheDHJ]

Yes the argument is simply that it tastes good and we can. Foie is the nectar of the gods.

[deadheadskier]

] 1:28 "She's nice. She likes animals. She's not evil." [b]-- Again, demonizing sides (which all parties tend to do) is a tactic I just can't stand. Let's get to the root of the issue, not try to make people devils or saints

I'll label her a Saint. There is not a single person more responsible for the availability of humanely raised, sustainable and organic meats in this country than Ariane Daguin. She pretty much invented the industry.

[Tim the Beek]

I fully respect that and think it's awesome you'll only eat meat you've raised yourself.

It means I don't eat much meat, that's for sure.

This thread is way too reasoned and civil for such a hot-button topic...we need to stir it up some how.

[TakeAStepBack]

OK, as the only guy here from CA, they over-regulate the FUCK out of everything already and spend hundreds of millions of dollars on debating fifty cent issues state-wide and that counts more to me than the actual issue at hand. I want to talk about fixing the important stuff.

Friggin' L Lberals.

[TakeAStepBack]

It means I don't eat much meat, that's for sure. This thread is way too reasoned and civil for such a hot-button topic...we need to stir it up some how.

You called?

[TheDHJ]

There's a thread here extolling bacon. Why isn't anyone in there talking about the treatment of mass market pigs?

[deadheadskier]

There's a thread here extolling bacon. Why isn't anyone in there talking about the treatment of mass market pigs?

wouldn't work. It would essentially be cannibalism as most lawmakers are pigs themselves.

[Tim the Beek]

You called?

[deadheadskier]

It means I don't eat much meat, that's for sure. This thread is way too reasoned and civil for such a hot-button topic...we need to stir it up some how.

well......one thing you could eat while visiting that area is produce from Rick Bishops farm. He's the National marketing P&R director for Hudson Valley Foie, but also owns his own farm and is a LEGEND among NYC chefs for the quality of his produce. His fruits and vegetables are the single most sought after in Manhattan.

[Tim the Beek]

Not to digress too much, but there's a lot going on in that valley...been making bread with wheat from http://www.wildhivefarm.com/

If you're ever over that way, the cafe is worth a visit...simple food, but very local, and quite good.

[Jabadoodle]

There's a thread here extolling bacon. Why isn't anyone in there talking about the treatment of mass market pigs?

I can only speak for me...but I don't like to go into every thread about meat and start spewing stuff about being kind to animals. I think that type of action turns people off. But this thread was specifically about the controversy over banning foie gras...so talking about animal welfare is on topic and warranted.

In my opinion, occasional appropriate comments are more effective and better received than overzealous prosthelytizing.

[GoPlastic]

i've never searched out fois gras, but i don't condone it being eaten, and will try it when the time is right.

[KittyRocks]

im not sure how i feel about it but i do firmly believe when it comes to animal welfare there are WAY WAY WAY bigger fish to fry.....

[alsoa]

i've never searched out fois gras, but i don't condone it being eaten, and will try it when the time is right.

Do you mean condemn?

[PieDoh]

You're asking the duck to impart it's essence into it's liver so you can go "yum, this sure is tasty" How long will it be before they distill the foie essence and flavor, oh cauliflower with it? Would it be as interesting? You can justify killing wild ducks in my book and harvesting any part you like...(duck penis?) But I draw the line at artifically enlarged duck liver just cause you like it. There are a lot of things that taste great, but the growing of "larger portions" must be regarded as gluttony.

[PeaceFrog]

My life does not feel incomplete in any way without it.

I think it's kind of cruel. I don't really think debeaking is cruel though, because that prevents the chickens from hurting each other and pecking eyes out... etc. which is also kind of cruel.

The whole food industry is really messed up, though, in many ways. But, in this regard I'm a huge hypocrite because it's so convenient and tasty to eat meat. It is something I might change about myself at some point.

[deadheadskier]

It is mimicking nature. All wild ducks gorge themselves before migration as the liver serves as the energy storage for their flight. Foie Gras was discovered in nature, not from a food science experiment. There is actually a fellow in Spain, Eduardo Sousa, raising natural Goose Foie Gras. He only raises the geese in the Fall and times the harvest at the peak of the bird's natural gavage. The product is the exact same as artificially stimulated gavage.

Before anyone says, "well, we shouldn't be mimicking nature", I suggest you put down the glass of milk you are drinking and visit the actual farms before coming to conclusions about whether farmers should raise ducks for Foie Gras. By the way, the whole animal is used. There's greater demand for Margret Duck Breasts and Duck Legs than there is the actual liver. I can't speak to consuming duck penis, but I have had duck hearts and testicles. Duck Balls are pretty tasty.

[seany]

Last I heard, nature doesn't use a feeding tube. Just saying, bro

[deadheadskier]

Last I heard, nature doesn't use a feeding tube. Just saying, bro

You missed my point. My point is that enlarged livers occur naturally. It's not just on commercial farms. Grab any wild duck in New England in November, cut it open and you're going to find a large ass liver. fact.

Regarding the tube....you do realize that it is less invasive than the fish ducks eat in the wild?

Just saying, bro

[TheDHJ]

Duck heart tartare is divine...

[seany]

I got your point. Gorging to increase fall fat. Check. Choking down a fish is intrusive. Check. Being forced fed 24/7 from a tube...? Sorry, you first...

I understand your point and that these farms are perhaps the cream of the crop - especially when you consider mass farming - but that's not the entire the point of the conversation. Forced fed foie gras is a luxury product. It's not a staple. Would you put a feeding tube down your throat or you cat's throat except out of medical necessity? Not trying to go all cc on you, but it seems to me that this is a luxury we really don't need. Just my opinion...

[TheDHJ]

Gavage does not take place 24/7. It's what Ryan...2-3 times a day for all of 2-3 seconds?

[seany]

Well, I'm not completely educated, but I would assume that the feeding tube is inserted once. If it's inserted multiple times, then that is tortuous.

Look - foie gras is delicious. No doubt. I like it. The few farms that raise it should maybe be praised for their practices - they're probably light years ahead of the rest of the meat/poultry industry.

I still can't help compare it to blood diamonds - it's an unnecessary luxury. You want to harvest some geese in the fall, fine. You want to stick a tube down their throat, well, I've got a fundamental problem with that...

[deadheadskier]

I got your point. Gorging to increase fall fat. Check. Choking down a fish is intrusive. Check. Being forced fed 24/7 from a tube...? Sorry, you first...

See, this is the kind of hyperbole and blatant ignorance that ruffles my duck feathers. Especially, the 24/7 part. The ducks are only fed by tube for their last two to three weeks of their lives. The first 8-10 their own their own in a HUGE barn with more room to roam than pretty much any type of indoor commercially raised animal. And the tube feeding doesn't occur "24/7." They are checked for feeding 3 times a day, but usually only fed twice. The crop of the bird is checked before feeding. If there is any undigested food in the crop from the prior feeding, the duck is set aside and not fed. For the entire 2-3 week period of the tube feeding, the duck is fed from the exact same woman every time. They work a 3 week on, 1 week off schedule. This is for the duck to become comfortable with the handler. The feeders are actually bonused on the quality of the meat at harvest because the kinder and gentler they are with the duck, the better the meat.

I understand your point and that these farms are perhaps the cream of the crop - especially when you consider mass farming - but that's not the entire the point of the conversation. Forced fed foie gras is a luxury product. It's not a staple. Would you put a feeding tube down your throat or you cat's throat except out of medical necessity? Not trying to go all cc on you, but it seems to me that this is a luxury we really don't need. Just my opinion...

Do you need beef? Do you need Chicken? Milk? I guarantee you that 90% of the food you and I have in our refrigerators we don't technically "need." Make no mistake that PETA would outlaw all of these foods if given the chance. They just decided to pick on the duck farmers because it's an extremely small industry and Foie Gras is easily vilified because so many people are clueless about it.........including yourself, no offense.

Attacking one group of farmers is a slippery slope. ESPECIALLY when the vast majority of the animals raised for food in this country have a far shittier life than ducks raised for Foie Gras. The fact that Foie Gras is a luxury and costs lot of money shouldn't even be in the discussion.

[TheDHJ]

It's unnecessarily delicious...especially merged into a terrine with pork shoulder...

It's like Garcia's licorice quote...those who like it really really like it.

[seany]

We'll agree to disagree on this one until one of us needs a feeding tube.

And I don't take any credence in anything PETA says - at all. As an NPO person, I have major issues with them. If I had to pick a non-profit that I would least like to be involved with, PETA would rank right up there with the "KKK fund for underprivileged Billionaires"

[deadheadskier]

All I can say is to visit the farm. Talk to other farmers who have visited the farm. All I know is that if Temple Grandin who is without question the most respected voice in agriculture on the humane treatment of animals, says that Hudson Valley's farming methods are okay; than that's enough for me.

As she is a professor at your Alma Mater, I'm sure you know who she is. You're a scientist sean. I would think that science would trump your emotions when looking at such issues.

[seany]

If I have the opportunity to visit the farm, I will. As for Alma Mater - I could care less about that and you should know that already

[deadheadskier]

All I was suggesting is that because Temple is probably the most famous professor at CSU you probably know who she is having attended the school. The comment wasn't about "Ram" pride.

[seany]

There's a ton of famous professors from CSU - Temple may rank, but hardly "the most famous"

Maybe the "most famous" in food circles. Maybe she's big in the Ag dept - and CSU is a big Ag school - but, in the overall academic population? There's a lot of CSU professors that have done a lot more than humanely raise a duck.

[TheDHJ]

Dinnertime must have been a blast in your house.

[PeaceFrog]

I tend to think humans have been eating meat for a long while given that we have fangs for ripping meat.

I think as a civilization we have lost a part of ourselves due to industrial agriculture. I think we've lost the feeling of a connection with the animals and plants around us.

I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with hunting and fishing to eat... and I also realize that I wouldn't want others telling me what to eat or not to eat.

I'd have to actually see the process of the foie gras. If the ducks looked happy about it, maybe I'd give it a try.



Who knows... maybe the ducks really are just having the time of their lives and couldn't ask for anything better. Maybe they like not even having to swallow.And they're just like woooohooo life is GOOOD!

[seany]

Ryan and I agree on most everything - I think this is a first...

[PeaceFrog]

well it's about time! this calls for celebration. It creeps me out when I agree with someone too much.