224 replies to this topic

[Lazy Lightning]

As Jwheelz's attorney, I was going to come in here and call for a cease and desist, but I can see he is rockin' it quite well.

Carry on, good people.

(Sorry, Jordan - you're just makeing too much sense for me to rescue you as requested!!! )

[Jwheelz]

maybe I just need to be rescued from myself

I almost got really sucked in on a different thread...

[manzanita stark]

Easy to forget that the May Day '71 protests and those following were instrumental in ending the draft and bringing the troops home from Viet Nam.

[Joker]

I don't see it as whining and bitching, I see it as being outspoken to make sure it's clear to outsiders what's actually happening... plus I think "getting wet" should mean facing legal consequences anyone would face doing the same actions, but reasonable ones... I don't think it should include getting physically beaten... but that's a really complex issue. As for being full of its own people, I think that's an unfortunate but necessary price of trying to enact some kind of change in a serious way. I'm pretty sure the people that participated in the student protests in the 1960s weren't necessarily happy (I'm sure there were some that were, but I'm speaking in general) about disrupting everyone's education for the process of what they were doing, but it takes a lot to get a point across, especially in today's world and with today's media. Protests are sometimes ugly things, but they need to be noticed to have any potential of accomplishing anything. While this can obviously backfire and harm the cause that people are trying to promote, I don't think that eliminates the need to try.

Outspoken is one thing but flagrantly breaking laws just to make waves in order to get attention is another. This has been going on since last year it should be "clear" what's actually happening by now.

Disrupting people's lives, endangering others, stealing, assaulting police, terrorizing neighbors, literally throwing shit around are anything but reasonable actions just to get one's point across.

Would these types of things be acceptable if it were being done by the KKK? Neo-nazis? Hell, I'd bet most here wouldn't think it was acceptable if the Tea Party pulled this type of shit.

Speaking of which, their voices were heard quite clearly without having to resort to this type of behavior. Enough so to affect elections across the country.

[deadheadskier]

is it the 5th? or the 1st? I could google it so I wont look stupid.. but I dont feel like it. lol.

The 5th would be better. Combine the strike with a bunch of tequila and it would be a lot more interesting.

[Joker]

but you're listening .. in fact, it seems like it's all you can talk about

Much like one "listens" to the screaming of a two year old who is desperately crying for attention with no regard for anyone but herself.

[Feck]

Due to leap year, the 6th month point would be April 30. April Day just doesn't have the same ring to it.

please be careful rocking the boat, if that boat is the ferry i'm on.
you might not like what comes out of my pie hole, unless i've taken my motion sickness meds
i need to take them an hour or so before hand.

please do not block the bridges, or transportaion hubs - forcing people to miss pay does not seem right.
give us a chance to make our own decsions.

[vic]

Outspoken is one thing but flagrantly breaking laws just to make waves in order to get attention is another. This has been going on since last year it should be "clear" what's actually happening by now. Disrupting people's lives, endangering others, stealing, assaulting police, terrorizing neighbors, literally throwing shit around are anything but reasonable actions just to get one's point across. Would these types of things be acceptable if it were being done by the KKK? Neo-nazis? Hell, I'd bet most here wouldn't think it was acceptable if the Tea Party pulled this type of shit. Speaking of which, their voices were heard quite clearly without having to resort to this type of behavior. Enough so to affect elections across the country.

people seem to have forgotten about this:

http://thinkprogress...spit/?mobile=nc

tell me with honesty that occupiers would ever be able to even get close enough to do something like this

how many were arrested that day? i forget

[Joker]

Looks like the guy that reportedly spit on him was screaming at him. Could it be he simply "sprayed" him while yelling? Apparently that guy was arrested and released when Cleaver didn't press charges.

I have no idea if occupiers would get that close, they've certainly been that close to other politicians, what's the difference?

The congressmen walked right through the crowd and the crowd parted for them rather than blocking their way, unlike the occupiers who seem to make a point of blocking anyone they feel like, whenever they feel like doing so (including innocent women and children) and not letting them pass by freely.

I see no sign of violence nor do I hear anything from the crowd other than boos and chants of kill the bill

http://www.youtube.c...;v=f7wYt9jee2U#!

[vic]

maybe part of what you say is right, but you can't honestly tell me that the tea party is not protected by the koch brother's dollaz

most original tea partiers will even tell you that

and i can guarantee you they'll never be able to influence another election again

[TakeAStepBack]

{most original tea partiers will even tell you that]

Most fo the original TEA Party members aren't with the movement any more. So this is false. The original movement is now called the Ron Paul revolution. Many will refuse any slogan and have sense been working to get Paul nominated.

[Joker]

Protected? Not sure what you mean by that but I'd never say that the Koch brothers aren't involved with it now. The Tea Party was certainly corrupted by right wing influences much like Occupy has been corrupted by the left.

I don't think anyone can argue the amount of violence, law breaking and disregard for others from the Occupy protests far exceeds that of the Tea Party protests.

[vic]

{most original tea partiers will even tell you that]

Most fo the original TEA Party members aren't with the movement any more. So this is false. The original movement is now called the Ron Paul revolution. Many will refuse any slogan and have sense been working to get Paul nominated.

That's pretty much what I meant

[crujonez]

May 1 is my birthday so I am already not going to w00k

[vic]

Protected? Not sure what you mean by that but I'd never say that the Koch brothers aren't involved with it now. The Tea Party was certainly corrupted by right wing influences much like Occupy has been corrupted by the left.

I don't think anyone can argue the amount of violence, law breaking and disregard for others from the Occupy protests far exceeds that of the Tea Party protests.

But you say that as if there was violence from the beginning...police violence against occupy from the beginning is pretty much what brought it into light and got people behind it...now that that game has died down this movement had better hurry up and figure out what to do next to get the public to stay behind it...we are going to find out a lot in 6 days about where this movement stands and if it can continue

Now sure, there have been violent incidents, for the most part in Oakland, and I really don't think that has been healthy for the movement as a whole, but in NYC it really depends on what you feel like calling violence...you think blocking a street is violence, I don't...zuccotti was mostly peaceful as far as I see it, and I really haven't seen violence since they returned, and I will say while the crackdowns have been ridiculous, the police have used some restraint comparative to September through November

I expect there to be a lot less standoff with the police next Tuesday than expected as well, considering the potential mass of people involved. This isn't gonna be 1-2000 people so it would be much more difficult to start confrontations from both sides

[Joker]

Yeah, the police violence that wasn't there for the Tea Party protests but magically appeared for the Occupy protests


You can bet your ass there will be more violence at this event because they know that's the only way they'll get attention from the media. It's a shame they're calling for kids to skip school to come down for this knowing the high probability of mass confrontation.

I wonder how many arrests there's been at this May Day event in past years, I'm betting this years totals will dwarf the rest combined.

The more people they have, the more chance of violence because the instigators will feel empowered to pull shit and then blend in with the crowd

[TakeAStepBack]

What is the point of this again?

[Joker]

New York May Day 2011



Workers Rally For Rights At May Day Demonstrations


Thousands of people in labor and immigrants' rights groups joined forces in Downtown Manhattan Sunday as they marked May Day, a worldwide celebration of workers' rights.

Many protesters started the day alongside immigration advocates at Union Square and marched down Broadway to the unions rally in Foley Square.
Organizers said they joined forces to fight animosity against unionized workers and growing calls for cutbacks to their benefits.
They rallied against Wisconsin's controversial law that banning public sector unions from collective bargaining. They also protested Arizona's immigration law, which gives police there the right to ask for documentation, and called for a path to citizenship.
Unions have faced widespread criticism for refusing to renegotiate contracts as states try to cut costs.
Demonstrators were worried about expected layoffs when Mayor Michael Bloomberg releases his budget this week.
"We've fought long and hard for the right to organize, and it's not something that we're going to give up easily," said one protester.
"We want legalization, we want the deportation to stop and we want a better, comprehensive reform,” said another.
"The workers that fought and died for unions to exist, that by the way gave birth to the middle class in the country, who were they? They were immigrants. They were immigrants from Italy, they were immigrants from Ireland, people who came here looking for a better life. So today is just a repeat of the same story," said a third.
People who attended both rallies said both issues of immigration and workers' rights relate to quality of life.
The demonstration was largely peaceful, with the exception of at least one isolated incident, when a group against amnesty for undocumented immigrants scuffled with demonstrators. A large police presence kept the conflict from getting out of control.

http://statenisland....-demonstrations

[vic]

Yeah, the police violence that wasn't there for the Tea Party protests but magically appeared for the Occupy protests You can bet your ass there will be more violence at this event because they know that's the only way they'll get attention from the media. It's a shame they're calling for kids to skip school to come down for this knowing the high probability of mass confrontation. I wonder how many arrests there's been at this May Day event in past years, I'm betting this years totals will dwarf the rest combined. The more people they have, the more chance of violence because the instigators will feel empowered to pull shit and then blend in with the crowd

you can refer to N17 to figure out that the larger numbers will keep police from fuckin shit up, and hopefully protesters as well

there was a shit ton of violence, from whoever you wanna say there was, during the day when there was only a couple thousand on the streets...the numbers swelled to between 40-60k depending on whose reports you follow, and literally no violence as the police backed off

hopefully that is the protocol that will prevail on tuesday

[Lazy Lightning]

maybe I just need to be rescued from myself I almost got really sucked in on a different thread...

Whoops - am I in the wrong thread for rescuing?

Damn, there go my billable hours!

[Jwheelz]

Outspoken is one thing but flagrantly breaking laws just to make waves in order to get attention is another. This has been going on since last year it should be "clear" what's actually happening by now. Disrupting people's lives, endangering others, stealing, assaulting police, terrorizing neighbors, literally throwing shit around are anything but reasonable actions just to get one's point across. Would these types of things be acceptable if it were being done by the KKK? Neo-nazis? Hell, I'd bet most here wouldn't think it was acceptable if the Tea Party pulled this type of shit. Speaking of which, their voices were heard quite clearly without having to resort to this type of behavior. Enough so to affect elections across the country.

I've said my piece... civil disobedience requires laws to be willfully broken, that's the whole damn point of it. It's unfair and wrong that legitimate protesters should be asked to leave when they have a constitutional right to be out in force (I'm not talking about Zucotti Park, I'm talking about sidewalks). A few people, a very small portion of the demonstrators have done things that they should not have and I don't support that and never have. This does not diminish the rights or cause of the people who continue to demonstrate. To even have the audacity to compare the occupy protesters to the KKK and neo-Nazis tells me all I ever need to know about your positions on this matter, I'm done debating this because there's nothing more I can say.

As for the "tea party," it's amazing how your voice can be heard when you have the backing of corporate money and right wing billionaires. As far as I'm concerned for the most part they're the same vocal minority of people who also think George W. Bush was a great president. But they're entitled to their opinions, and they've certainly been heard, but that's not what this is about.

Edit: I understand you're not necessarily trying to compare them, but by invoking hate groups in the same breath as people who have a legitimate right to protest and whose means you disagree it implies a comparison whether intentional or not.

[TakeAStepBack]

I just dont know why we want a communist country. It doesn't even work. Or is that the point?

[vic]

I just dont know why we want a communist country. It doesn't even work. Or is that the point?

no, it's not the point, and the more you say that the more you come off as a heckler akin to PF talking shit on ron paul

[TakeAStepBack]

So, what is the point again? I've asked several times now. May Day is associated with communist countries. It is their proletariat celebration in conquering the evil capitalists only to discover that due to production problems in the command system, millions would have to starve or suffer a life of servatude with a terrible standard of living.

If I'm missing something, please, fill it in here. Because i am not seeing it.

[vic]

May Day is a celebration of the working class. While it has had events and factions of communism/socialism involved, it runs much deeper and involves more than just communists, breh.

i posted the wiki link on the history of may day earlier in this thread, but apparently you just skimmed through it until you found the word communism

[Deadshow Dan]

The original May Day was for that "communist" idea of a 8 hour work day.

Any advance in worker rights is labeled communist , Marxist

May Day is not communist and started in Australia

[Joker]

I don't think you do know my position on this matter. I believe there's a legitimate beef and a need to protest. I just don't believe breaking the law and instigating confrontations with the police, which is more often than not in the larger protests, is the right way to go about it.

The sidewalk sleeping thing is fairly new and I believe those being arrested are being charged with excessive noise violations (at least some of them were) If they do have a constitutional right to be there and they're being arrested solely for being there then I would hope charges are brought against the PD. However, I don't believe the case they are citing (I think it's from around 2000 and involved a small number and specific rules) fits into the actions of these protests.

If the mere mention of those groups gets you riled up just try to imagine how the cops doing there job feel when there's hundreds if not thousands of protesters getting up in their faces yelling and screaming Nazis, fascists, etc... in an effort to provoke them. It has nothing at all to do with the message they are trying to send and is all about escalating the situation..

[vic]

seriously though, what is this the rebirth of mccarthyism where any dissenters are called communists?

knowing that you're smarter than that, i can only conclude that you're heckling

again, it's a page right out of the PF ron paul's racist newsletter book

[vic]

Any advance in worker rights is labeled communist , Marxist

yeah pretty much

[TakeAStepBack]

No, I already know what it is and it's history. It IS a socialist/communist (sprinkled with the always lovely anarchist) movement of "the working class". or the proletariat. Or most of all, unions.

I'm asking what the point is. To say, "hey, look, we work! Yay us!"?

[TakeAStepBack]

May Day is not communist and started in Australia

Interesting, not according to Wikipedia. You should give them a heads up.

[vic]

If the mere mention of those groups gets you riled up just try to imagine how the cops doing there job feel when there's hundreds if not thousands of protesters getting up in their faces yelling and screaming Nazis, fascists, etc... in an effort to provoke them. It has nothing at all to do with the message they are trying to send and is all about escalating the situation..

that's a pretty ridiculous assessment there...you have any proof that that happens BEFORE someone is violently thrown to the ground and ziptied? before someone is pepper-sprayed? before a vet is shot in the head with a flashbang? is there any chance that maybe the protesters have been attacked and provoked by the police? wouldn't you think that the protesters would want the police on their side? this movement wasn't started on the pretext of 'let's fuck with cops'...you'll be pretty hard pressed to find me a video of a protester attacking a cop, and i don't mean trying to pull their arm free after being grabbed

[vic]

No, I already know what it is and it's history. It IS a socialist/communist (sprinkled with the always lovely anarchist) movement of "the working class". or the proletariat. Or most of all, unions. I'm asking what the point is. To say, "hey, look, we work! Yay us!"?

ok. labor rights=communism. we get it. you hate workers having rights.

[Joker]

that's a pretty ridiculous assessment there...you have any proof that that happens BEFORE someone is violently thrown to the ground and ziptied? before someone is pepper-sprayed? before a vet is shot in the head with a flashbang? is there any chance that maybe the protesters have been attacked and provoked by the police? wouldn't you think that the protesters would want the police on their side? this movement wasn't started on the pretext of 'let's fuck with cops'...you'll be pretty hard pressed to find me a video of a protester attacking a cop, and i don't mean trying to pull their arm free after being grabbed

Here they are clearly trying to start shit. Obviously they don't want them on their side

[TakeAStepBack]

ok. labor rights=communism. we get it. you hate workers having rights.

That's, heh, not true. I believe everyone has the same rights in our country. I dont see any value in special rights for some over others though.

[Deadshow Dan]

Interesting, not according to Wikipedia. You should give them a heads up.

What does it say?

[Feck]

i don't need a video to show me what i've seen aleady.

early on during one of the marches down Wall St a protester kept reaching over the barricades to f'k with a cop, trying to take his hat,. badge or what ever he could grab.

nice bright orange gloves on the protester so the cameras would catch his actions, or possibly edit those out and focus on the retaliation.

same for the guys that threw cash at the bull.

[Deadshow Dan]

I believe everyone has the same rights in our country.

Do you mean that? I'm guessing no, and that you'd welcome a chance to re-state that, but maybe I'm wrong

[vic]

Here they are clearly trying to start shit. Obviously they don't want them on their side

that's obviously not what i was asking for, first off, and second that is very recent and not even close to answering who drew the first blows of violence

and besides, lighten up, that shit is funny...and not illegal

[TakeAStepBack]

What does it say?

It says a lot of things. But not a peep about Australia. Someone has erred.

[Joker]

[vic]

That's, heh, not true. I believe everyone has the same rights in our country. I dont see any value in special rights for some over others though.

uh huh...like your stance on public vs private sector workers...same rights, right?

[TakeAStepBack]

Do you mean that? I'm guessing no, and that you'd welcome a chance to re-state that, but maybe I'm wrong

Yes, I do mean that. The rights established under the constitution are for everyone. Social policies have changed over time, but the govt. should not be in charge of dictating or creating social engineering by giving some more privilege over others.

[TakeAStepBack]

uh huh...like your stance on public vs private sector workers...same rights, right?

Sigh...you really should just read a few books abotu economics, how taxation works, where wealth is built, what the governments role is and why public sector unionization is a horrible idea. We've been over it. SO you either A) don't want to believe the truth don't care or C) do not understand.

[vic]

i don't need a video to show me what i've seen aleady. early on during one of the marches down Wall St a protester kept reaching over the barricades to f'k with a cop, trying to take his hat,. badge or what ever he could grab. nice bright orange gloves on the protester so the cameras would catch his actions, or possibly edit those out and focus on the retaliation. same for the guys that threw cash at the bull.

i haven't seen incident 1...maybe you have proof? even if so, you're stating one incident from 1 guy that we're supposed to just take your biased word on

2, throwing cash at the bull is neither provoking police nor illegal

[TakeAStepBack]

seriously though, what is this the rebirth of mccarthyism where any dissenters are called communists? knowing that you're smarter than that, i can only conclude that you're heckling again, it's a page right out of the PF ron paul's racist newsletter book

McCarthy was right adn has been vindicated since the declassification of FBI, CIA , congressional and Russian documentation. Murrow is the guy to blame for the witch hunts. As such, the blue donkey has inherited the progressives. Not that this is related.

[Feck]

i don't need to prove anything on these, you can take my word, or not - no skin off my back either way.
if i've made stuff up before, be my guest and point it out.

inciting a riot, might be considered illegal, which is what the cash thing almost did.

the bull was and still is behind barricades, with a 24 hour police guard .the guy walked right up to the offcers posted there, waved the cash at the crowd that regualrly goes there for photos and then threw it so it would land on the wrong side.
many of the people there, went for the cash.
The guy i was standing next to didn;t even point the thing at the people, just the guy being arrested.
when i offered them some loose bills that fell to the ground from when they were taking the wrappers off, he told me to keep it.
I left it for someone who might need it more than i do. This was duing the throwing portion and the camera was pointed at the ground.

then again, i might be schizophrenic.

[Deadshow Dan]

It says a lot of things. But not a peep about Australia. Someone has erred.

I spent a few minutes doing some searching. I do see Australia mentioned, but then some go back to the 1600s and even earlier.

The Australia connection has to do with the 8 hour work week, which first took hold there, an there was most certainly an May Day there in the 1800s.

Wherever it started, it wasn't in a communist country, it's not socialist, Marxist or communist. It's for Labor

[TakeAStepBack]

I do not see that any where on wiki. Which is what i was pointing out. According to wiki, that 8 hour work day strike started in Chicago.


International Workers' Day is the commemoration of the 1886 Haymarket Massacre in Chicago, when, after an unknown person threw a dynamite bomb at police as they dispersed a public meeting, Chicago police fired on workers during a general strike for the eight hour workday, killing several demonstrators and resulting in the deaths of several police officers, largely from friendly fire.^[1][2][3][4] In 1889, the first congress of the Second International, meeting in Paris for the centennial of the French Revolution and the Exposition Universelle, following a proposal by Raymond Lavigne, called for international demonstrations on the 1890 anniversary of the Chicago protests.^{[citation needed]} May Day was formally recognized as an annual event at the International's second congress in 1891.^{[citation needed]}
Subsequently, the May Day Riots of 1894 occurred. In 1904, the International Socialist Conference meeting in Amsterdam called on "all Social Democratic Party organizations and trade unions of all countries to demonstrate energetically on May First for the legal establishment of the 8-hour day, for the class demands of the proletariat, and for universal peace." The congress made it "mandatory upon the proletarian organizations of all countries to stop work on May 1, wherever it is possible without injury to the workers."^[5]
In many countries, the working classes sought to make May Day an official holiday, and their efforts largely succeeded. May Day has long been a focal point for demonstrations by various socialist, communist and anarchist groups. In some circles, bonfires are lit in commemoration of the Haymarket martyrs, usually at dawn.^[6] May Day has been an important official holiday in Communist countries such as the People's Republic of China, Cuba and the former Soviet Union. May Day celebrations typically feature elaborate popular and military parades in these countries.


Unless this is about the religious May Day, dating back to the roman times (perhaps earlier) and everyone is goign to have baskets.Anyway, it is a celebration of the ideas of karl Marx and the exploitation theories of the proletariat. If the mission of the general strike is to show the "1%" that the "99%" can put a grinding halt to production/service, I would suspect they are aware of that. But that does not hurt the 1%. it hurts the 100%.


Carry on now. I've run enough muck in vic's thread.

[vic]

I spent a few minutes doing some searching. I do see Australia mentioned, but then some go back to the 1600s and even earlier. The Australia connection has to do with the 8 hour work week, which first took hold there, an there was most certainly an May Day there in the 1800s. Wherever it started, it wasn't in a communist country, it's not socialist, Marxist or communist. It's for Labor

ah the dreaded 8 hour work week...a trampling on the constitution just like criminalizing workplace discrimination and sexual harassment