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Boardie Documentary Club Discussion 11: "Price of pleasure"


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#51 china cat

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:09 AM

Thank you for all of your insights. I started the discussion by posing the same (boring and over-quarreled) questions presented when the topic of pornography is debated.

I think, for me, what saddens me about pornography are the images and messages of dehumanization. I find no eroticism in images of women being gang-banged while being called derogatory names, whose faces are then used as semen receptacles. What if that scene involved your daughter or your sister? What does it say about human nature that those images turn men on; what does it say about how we relate to other human beings when we enjoy and ejaculate to 3 men calling a woman a "stupid bitch who only knows how to fuck?" What do these images portray? Is porn more than a vehicle for sexual gratification - to me, it insults sex and intimacy. Maybe it's really a reflection of something else. How do the messages and representations in pornography work to structure our basic assumptions about ourselves, each other, and our relationships?

I believe these images degrade men as well, and for the heaviest consumers, effect their ability to form and maintain real and intimate relationships with women.

Admittedly, pornography is one small (albeit incredibly popular) example of some of the darker parts of human nature that pervade our cultural landscape. Violent video games, horror movies where psychopaths torture others for entertainment as audience members look on, Reality TV.. daily representations and spectacles of abuse, name-calling, incivility, tabloids, sexual crassness.. all replacing models of basic human kindness and compassion. “If we are forced, at every hour, to watch or listen to horrible events, this constant stream of ghastly impressions will deprive even the most delicate among us of all respect for humanity.” ~Cicero, 80 B.C.

Today's porn is just a more dramatic example these same storylines of dehumanization and objectification. To me, this promotes an environment in which people become indifferent to how violence and degradation results in human suffering. Is it fair to say that when we witness and enjoy such images we erode our respect for one another as valuable and worthy human beings? Can genuine concern for one another coexist in the commodified world of ass-to- mouth, double penetration, and gang-banging? Can we objectify one another while simultaneously maintaining dignity for another another? When you think about a healthy society and creating a more beautiful world, do you ever include hard core pornography in that vision?

I know it's not going away, it's just not part of the world in which I want to live. There is something so valuable and beautiful about each of us. I know that each act influences our world and brings either more or less value and beauty into it. I know that the world needs more compassion, more sweetness, more empathy, more hope, and a lot more love. I don't see any of that in the world of today's pornography.

#52 Lazy Lightning

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:47 AM

The other thing that was weird was the guy that cut out all those pictures and then hid them. It was the obsessive action and the hiding of them that creeped me out. I think there is a lot behind this sort of action - lots of people feel shame when it comes to their own sexuality. How can people have mutually satisfying sexual relationships if they can't even start the conversation with their partners? In it's own turn, I think this shame and repression pushes the sexualization of the more extreme examples of porn (gang-banging, bukakki, etc...) Then again, so much of our society views control and power as a turn-on, it's no wonder that the porn industry produces the sort of material CC mentions in her above post.

The other thing that surprised me is that I didn't read any posts in this thread about anyone being a real avid porn supporter. I kinda always thought I was a little alone in this, which is yet another perfect example of how pervasive and mainstream this media has become in our society.

#53 Tim the Beek

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:14 PM

I think, for me, what saddens me about pornography are the images and messages of dehumanization.


Again, I think this is a symptom and expression of wider-spread difficulties societies are having.

Add in that (IMO) sex at it's "best" dances the line between lower and higher brain functions, and it's not hard to see how (some) porn has ended up where it has.

And for me, some of the lines when it comes to sexual behaviors are pretty fine..."facials" don't really interest me, but once in a while, with the right lover, letting fly on her body and reveling in the aftermath can be a celebration of earthiness and something primal which we don't experience in many other ways in modern life.

What I'm talking about isn't demeaning, but an extension of the connection that just took place and, again, a mutual celebration.

Is porn more than a vehicle for sexual gratification - to me, it insults sex and intimacy.


The behaviors you're talking about in some porn certainly do.

I believe these images degrade men as well, and for the heaviest consumers, effect their ability to form and maintain real and intimate relationships with women.


Maybe to some degree, although I suspect that they may primarily be catalysts to an existing problem, and not causes.

I know it's not going away, it's just not part of the world in which I want to live. There is something so valuable and beautiful about each of us. I know that each act influences our world and brings either more or less value and beauty into it. I know that the world needs more compassion, more sweetness, more empathy, more hope, and a lot more love. I don't see any of that in the world of today's pornography.


Hear hear!

The other thing that was weird was the guy that cut out all those pictures and then hid them. It was the obsessive action and the hiding of them that creeped me out.


That was creepy. I thought at the time that that guy was some sort of statistical flier...that even if porn didn't exist, he would be very troubled in some way.

#54 Lazy Lightning

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:53 PM

How would this industry be regulated if that is what you think it requires? How would you ensure that these regulations are met?

#55 Depends

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:31 PM

I think some of the gang bang stuff goes after the viewer thinking " This beautiful girl is so horny, she might even do me."

#56 Lazy Lightning

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 03:43 PM

:lol:

It is all about the fantasy and availability, right?

#57 TEO

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 04:16 PM

I think some of the gang bang stuff goes after the viewer thinking " This beautiful girl is so horny, she might even do me."


This. My experience with a "porn addict" was that much of the appeal was fantasy that the chicks would do him, well that and an obsession with the male members, but that is a semi-repression for another time.

#58 Tim the Beek

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 05:08 PM

I think some of the gang bang stuff goes after the viewer thinking " This beautiful girl is so horny, she might even do me."


Heck, I don't need porn to have that delusion. Just a walk down the street will do... :funny1:

#59 manzanita stark

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 05:17 PM

I don't know. I saw my first porn at a drive-in in '72 and I don't think things have ever been the same since.:lol:

http://gatheringofth...&pictureid=2518

#60 Lazy Lightning

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 05:18 PM

Which of course brings up a whole other debate: why don't male cartoon characters ever wear any pants? :lol:

#61 china cat

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 05:35 PM

How would this industry be regulated if that is what you think it requires? How would you ensure that these regulations are met?


I think maybe we've moved beyond that - the proliferation of websites, the mass quantities of videos.... makes it too difficult to regulate.

I do wish x-rated sites were required to register under a xxx domain, so that if you want it you go to seek it, rather than be confronted with it during a web search. I also don't think there should be any free pornographic teasers on the web. Homepages should not be allowed to show graphic images--you must have a credit card/payment in order to see them. Reason being: We are not a society of adults only, we have some responsibility to our children--to keep our children safe--and reduce exposure to potentially disturbing material. I think reasonable measures, though challneging to implement, could be enacted.

In the end, I think the proliferation of hard core pornography is a mirror of the hearts and minds of the culture. How do we change things? By changing the hearts and minds of the culture. One person at a time. That's why I want to start a love revolution. I don't want to focus on the pain anymore - I want to focus on a solution. Can we begin a conversation about how to participate in the resurrection of moral values, mutual obligations, and genuine concern for one another; develop a vision of what we want our future to look like. Our law makers aren't going to do it. The porn industry isn't going to do it. The media isn't going to do it. I guess that leaves me. and you.

It's estimated that 80-90% of women in porn and prostitution are victims of sexual abuse. To have such a high number in one industry leads me to believe this is an industry that provides a vehicle for further exploitation and rewounding. There is so much work to be done: healing the women, creating better opportunities, teaching love...

#62 china cat

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 05:36 PM

sometimes my heart hurts.

#63 Tim the Beek

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 05:41 PM

sometimes my heart hurts.


(((CC)))

Don't forget to look at what's good and right and beautiful (there's still plenty of it), and more at the solutions than the problems.

#64 TEO

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 05:51 PM

"If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of yourself. If you want to eliminate the suffering in the world, then eliminate all that is dark and negative in yourself. Truly, the greatest gift you have to give is that of your own self-transformation." —Lao Tzu

"More fundamental than religion is our basic human spirituality. We have a basic human disposition towards love, kindness and affection, irrespective of whether we have a religious framework or not. When we nurture this most basic human resource – when we set about cultivating those basic inner values which we all appreciate in others, then we start to live spiritually. - Dalai Lama

"The basic foundation of humanity is compassion and love. This is why, if even a few individuals simply try to create mental peace and happiness within themselves and act responsibly and kind-heartedly towards others, they will have a positive influence in their community." - Dalai Lama

#65 Tim the Beek

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 05:52 PM

[quote name='TEO']"If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of yourself. If you want to eliminate the suffering in the world, then eliminate all that is dark and negative in yourself. Truly, the greatest gift you have to give is that of your own self-transformation."

#66 china cat

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:02 PM

[quote name='TEO']"If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of yourself. If you want to eliminate the suffering in the world, then eliminate all that is dark and negative in yourself. Truly, the greatest gift you have to give is that of your own self-transformation."

#67 TEO

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 06:33 PM

:smile: :heart:

#68 PeaceFrog

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 08:10 PM

ever see that television show "30 days?"

I think China Cat needs to masturbate to porn once a day every day for 30 days and then get back to us.

Start off with some soft porn on Skinemax and then work your way up from there.

#69 Tim the Beek

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 09:42 PM

I just had the great displeasure of viewing this thread while I was inadvertently not logged in...so that my ignore function wasn't functioning.

Normally I'd let trolls be trolls, especially this one, but...

PF, if what you wrote was meant to be funny, it wasn't. If it was meant to be insulting and mean-spirited, then you succeeded, because it sure looks that way. I hope its target either doesn't see it, or takes it more in stride than I have.

I'm logged back in, so have fun spitting up whatever pablum you have in response to this...I won't see it.

#70 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:00 PM

Sorry to hear, Tim. Always an unpleasant experience.

Log in on the board is always a must now. That said.


((((CC)))) :heart:

#71 PeaceFrog

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:31 PM

I'm glad we have these libertarians here to decide what's funny and what's mean spirited.

Why don't you go ahead and decide what exactly porn is and then ban it while you're at it.

It was actually a serious comment. Has anyone seen Morgan Spurlock's show?

I wish all you assholes that have a bug up your ass you lovingly call PeaceFrog would just ignore me. I get it, you don't like what I say and you want me to conform to your expectations. Let me just tell you right now that you're not going about it the right way by acting self-righteous and condescending.

#72 PeaceFrog

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:43 PM

Posted Image

#73 manzanita stark

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 03:35 PM

Aside from the moral and psychological issues pertaining to it's impact on society Depends has been quite accurate concerning the mainstream business that has developed since the early 70's. There are many in the "legit" industry by choice.

However, the underground and amateur industries are still very much real and provide the much larger share of what is available on the internet. One of the principal reasons bigger money began to back "mainstream" was to bring the participants who chose to be in adult entertainment into an environment containing the basic parameters of the film industry to even include benefits such as health insurance and retirement packages. The guise was that if they brought the industry legit that underground would eventually be brought down by lack of interest due to the superior quality of this new breed of mainstream adult film.

Obviously the idea was most likely true to a good measure, but the motive to make the top people richer is always a factor.

Then came the internet. Underground and amateur had an uncontrolled distribution media and has gone wild, or at least was, as we all know there are efforts being made to limit internet content.

I would have to agree the mainstream industry itself operates much like Hollywood itself, finding it's market whether it be VOD or DVD or what, most likely with no more illegal activity and coercion.

Then there is the underground:

Do Snuff films really exist? I know I had a plain label VHS tape in my hands in the early 80's, Plain white label and all it said was SNUFF #38. I asked if I could borrow it and the Policemen that had it told me I didn't need to see what was on it. (They had it for training purposes and to convince them snuff is real)

(I grew up with all kinds of legal and law enforcement people around):funny1:

Also late 70's early 80's a friend brought back a plain label tape directly from Van Nuys with five movies on it. Believe me this tape got circulated and I never talked to anyone who ever watched the whole thing. I made it into a portion of the third film and came to the realization that the little voice inside me was telling me I was not supposed to be seeing this shit, let alone it was fellow humans doing it.

I never really paid much attention until Larry Flint got shot. Then my interest was aroused so I started researching what it was all about.:dunno:

#74 china cat

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 05:22 PM

That information sickens me Stark and convinces me that evil exists

Larry Flint is one of the most disgusting misogynists and racists on the planet. He has admitted to sex with an animal and been accused of molesting his daughter (with a magazine series titled "chester the molester" I have no doubt he is a pedophile)

Real class act, he is. These images are beyond disturbing: http://www.hustlingt...lery/index.html

#75 PeaceFrog

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 07:05 PM

Posted Image

#76 manzanita stark

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 12:53 AM

That information sickens me Stark and convinces me that evil exists

Larry Flint is one of the most disgusting misogynists and racists on the planet. He has admitted to sex with an animal and been accused of molesting his daughter (with a magazine series titled "chester the molester" I have no doubt he is a pedophile)

Real class act, he is. These images are beyond disturbing: http://www.hustlingt...lery/index.html


Not even sure evil is the correct description. Flint is in my opinion a vile creature at best.

If there were no coercion how was it possible after getting away from the industry Linda Boreman successfully stopped the further manufacture of any more new copies of Deep Throat? Of course there is no control over the bootlegs, but she made a successful attempt to stop the people who were making money off from her from making any more.

Even her ex husband (Chuck Traynor made her marry him so she couldn't testify against him in California court) admitted he only ever received $1200 for a film that eventually grossed millions. Linda never saw a dime. Traynor controlled EVERYTHING.

Traynor met two different younger women he enticed into the industry, the second being Marilyn Chambers (whom he married the year after Linda successfully divorced).

There were many people in the industry that all knew Traynor was a very sick and disturbed person. He began with both women flashing money and fancy cars etc. and before they knew it they were working for him. So is it fair to blame Gerard Damiano for Linda being forced to make the film for not verifying she was a completely willing participant? What did he know?

This situation was directly related to what is now mainstream when "porn became chic" so to speak in the 70's. From what I have researched Linda did seem to be an exception to many of the women who became stars and the problem seemed to lie with her agent-husband. Many have claimed to have lived very different lives and are still around and do defend the mainstream industry.

#77 Depends

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 07:25 AM

A couple of things here...
@ Peacefrog
Every individual decides what is funny and what is mean spirited. Tim actually asked if you were trying to be funny. You can't always side step your remarks by saying "It was just a joke." CC has said/done nothing to you that would cause you to recire such a remark. If you were a gentleman, you would apologize. My opinion any way. IF you meant it as a joke, you missed the mark. If you meant, as you say, as a serious remark, then quite frankly, you are out of line. And I ain't no libertarian.

@ Stark
You are right about Linda/Deep Throat. It did bring porno out from beyond peep shows into the bedrooms of America. VCRs helped a lot also. Marilyn Chambers was at odds with Linda about the coercion, but I side with Linda on this ...
The people I knew/know in the industry never had a bad word to say. I'm sure there are many who would have tons to say. Money at the top? Yeah, of course. Isn't it always the way? Ask any artist/musician/actor. What is the percentage of high paid actors to actor that wait tables... I'm not saying its right, but its the norm.
Like I said, I've been away from it for a long time. But the people I knew were very smart, knew what they were doing, made decent $$. Many of them had demons. A few died young. Some went on to become PhD's. Funny world.
I've never seen a SNUFF film, but I don't consider that porn.
And we all can agree. Larry Flint is slime.

#78 manzanita stark

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 11:09 AM

How many people realize the "Free Speech Coalition" was founded by the adult entertainment industry?

Guess it would be more accurate to say co-founded as there were people forming the FSC but when the Adult Film and Video Association of America stepped in is when it became a prominent lobbying group.

#79 PeaceFrog

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 07:12 PM

This thread smells like Rick Santorum.

#80 Esau

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 07:16 PM

The film's website has a few other videos.

http://thepriceofpleasure.com/

1.Does porn meet the criteria of "free speech?" Is it protected by the First Amendment?


I don't see why it shouldn't. The same amendment protects hate mongers like the KKK or funeral protesting westboro baptists. Folks appear to be fine with that it seems.

2.If prostitution is illegal, why is video-taped prostitution not prosecuted? Is there a contradiction here?


If your referring to the documentary, then I think the answer will depend how someone perceives question 1.

Personally, I see no contradiction as I see it as a form "freedom of speech" via arts - unless those taped were not age of majority, recorded unknowingly, or against their will.

3.Can you think of any forms of pornography you believe should be outlawed?


Yes. Anything with animals, children or anyone not consenting.

4.Should there be restrictions (ex: XXX domain created on web)?


Yes. (refer to question 3) - Also, I have no issues with restrictions for porn websites that are located in countries that have a different age of majority then the country that is viewing the material.

5.What do you think of Journalist Robert Jensen's critiques of porn?


Not much.

#81 china cat

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 07:37 PM

Hi Esau

The free speech issue: Guess it depends on how we define speech. Speech (edit to clarify) as I believe the founders intended, involves the written and spoken word (speech being a linguistic act). The First Amendment does not say "freedom of expression" as many claim, it says freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech is the political right to communicate one's ideas via speech

Speech is the vocalized form of human communication. It is based upon the syntactic combination of lexicals and names that are drawn from very large (usually to about 10,000 different words) vocabularies

speech: the faculty or power of speaking; oral communication; ability to express one's thoughts and emotions by speech sounds

speech: something that is spoken; an utterance, remark, or declaration: We waited for some speech that would indicate her true feelings.

speech: a form of communication in spoken language, made by a speaker before an audience for a given purpose: a fiery speech.



There is a difference between saying "I want to fuck" and actually fucking, isn't there? There is a difference between saying I want to kill that person and actually killing them. Don't we look at speech a bit differently than we look at physical acts?

#82 Esau

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 07:56 PM

Hi Esau

The free speech issue: Guess it depends on how we define speech. Speech, to me, involves the written a spoken word (speech is a linguistic act). The First Amendment does not say "freedom of expression" as many claim, it says freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech is the political right to communicate one's ideas via speech

Speech is the vocalized form of human communication. It is based upon the syntactic combination of lexicals and names that are drawn from very large (usually to about 10,000 different words) vocabularies

speech: the faculty or power of speaking; oral communication; ability to express one's thoughts and emotions by speech sounds

speech: something that is spoken; an utterance, remark, or declaration: We waited for some speech that would indicate her true feelings.


speech: a form of communication in spoken language, made by a speaker before an audience for a given purpose: a fiery speech.



There is a difference between saying "I want to fuck" and actually fucking, isn't there? There is a difference between saying I want to kill that person and actually killing them. Don't we look at speech a bit differently than we look at physical acts?


Excuse my misinterpretation of "freedom of speech". Although, I don't see the need for a lesson in the meaning of the word 'speech', aside from just being an arrogant ass.

My misinterpretation is more then likely due to this: Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms states that everyone has these following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication.

Feel free to link to any dictionary definitions you feel like.

#83 seany

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 08:04 PM

China - You of all people know better than to make a simplistic argument about "speech" like that. In the US, we define "freedom of speech" in legal terms, not Oxford dictionary terms, and that legal definition is sufficiently broad to cover much more than "speech."

Here's two good resources on pornography and censorship: (the first philosophical, which leads to legal, the second legal case law for pornorgraphy).

http://plato.stanfor...phy-censorship/

http://legal-diction...com/pornography

#84 china cat

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 08:46 PM

Excuse my misinterpretation of "freedom of speech". Although, I don't see the need for a lesson in the meaning of the word 'speech', aside from just being an arrogant ass.

My misinterpretation is more then likely due to this: Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms states that everyone has these following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication.

Feel free to link to any dictionary definitions you feel like.


I am sorry that you misinterpreted the post. It was not to school you or to be arrogant. As stated, I said it depends on how one defines speech. The definitions were posted to defend an argument (that could be made) that the act of pornography may not fall within the parameters of "speech."

#85 china cat

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 09:09 PM

China - You of all people know better than to make a simplistic argument about "speech" like that. In the US, we define "freedom of speech" in legal terms, not Oxford dictionary terms, and that legal definition is sufficiently broad to cover much more than "speech."

Here's two good resources on pornography and censorship: (the first philosophical, which leads to legal, the second legal case law for pornorgraphy).

http://plato.stanfor...phy-censorship/

http://legal-diction...com/pornography


I know the debate in the second article well. Seems to defend the prosecution of hard core porn rather than defend it as a first amendment issue.

Distribution of much milder forms of pornography used to be punishable by law. So legal definitions and standards change with the times http://www.pbs.org/w...ews/taylor.html

I simply brought up the argument because, when asked if porn is protected under first amendment, Esau responded "I don't see why it shouldn't." I was presenting a potential argument as to why it may not be protected. (throughout the nation's history is was prosecutable) and, if we define it instead as "obscenity" (today's pornography seems to meet the legal criteria--granted definitions are problematic) it is not protected "speech" http://legal-diction...y.com/Obscenity



edit: this is an interesting and current court case: http://www.post-gaze...1/733755-85.stm

#86 PeaceFrog

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:01 PM

I'm still not sure what the problem or the solution is.

Should we start a government agency to monitor all the porn on the internet?

#87 Esau

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 06:00 PM

I am sorry that you misinterpreted the post. It was not to school you or to be arrogant. As stated, I said it depends on how one defines speech. The definitions were posted to defend an argument (that could be made) that the act of pornography may not fall within the parameters of "speech."


I believe I interpreted the post correct. In fact, I understood your point of view from merely reading this;

The free speech issue: Guess it depends on how we define speech. Speech, to me, involves the written a spoken word (speech is a linguistic act). The First Amendment does not say "freedom of expression" as many claim, it says freedom of speech.


The rest appears to me as nothing more then an assumption I needed to be reminded of the definition of speech. Perhaps you don't find such assumptions arrogant. In which case, I apologize.

Anyway, I still feel it should be protected. Speech to me, includes expression in these terms. I mean, burning a flag is protected under freedom of speech when the action obviously does not fit the definition of "speech", according to you. A few other things come to mind like t-shirt slogans, political buttons/bumper stickers or works of art. With my limited understanding of how everything works in the USA, it appears to me this topic isn't entirely based on a person's rights (if at all), but more on moral ideologies. Looking around on the web, I can find instances were non-verbal freedom of expression is and/or was protected under the first amendment, and I can find instances were it wasn't and/or isn't.

Since, your defining speech so strictly, it's safe for me to define expression the same I imagine.

Definition of EXPRESSION http://www.merriam-w...nary/expression

1a : an act, process, or instance of representing in a medium (as words) : utterance <freedom of expression> b (1) : something that manifests, embodies, or symbolizes something else <this gift is an expression of my admiration for you> (2) : a significant word or phrase (3) : a mathematical or logical symbol or a meaningful combination of symbols (4) : the detectable effect of a gene; also : expressivity 1

2a: a mode, means, or use of significant representation or symbolism; especially : felicitous or vivid indication or depiction of mood or sentiment <read the poem with expression> b (1) : the quality or fact of being expressive (2) : facial aspect or vocal intonation as indicative of feeling

3: an act or product of pressing out

Synonyms: articulation, formulation, phrasing, statement, utterance, verbalism, voice, wording



#88 vic

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 06:10 PM

the whole nsfw thing keeps me from being able to watch it since i usually watch docs at work...


i do love porn though, and that's all i got to say about that:smile: