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Boardie Documentary Club Discussion 11: "Price of pleasure"


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#1 china cat

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:14 AM

NOT SAFE FOR WORK!

this is a small screen preview but still watchable. you can't find a full version anywhere but this link - best I can do.

"Once relegated to the margins of society, pornography has emerged as one of the most visible and profitable sectors of the cultural industries, assuming an unprecedented role in the mainstream of our popular culture at the same time that its content has become more extreme and harsh, more overtly sexist and racist. This eye-opening and disturbing film tackles the complexity behind this seeming paradox, placing the voices of critics, producers, and performers alongside the observations of men and women as they candidly discuss the role pornography has played in shaping their sexual imaginations and relationships. Honest and non-judgmental, The Price of Pleasure moves beyond the liberal versus conservative debates so common in the culture to paint a myth-busting and nuanced portrait of how pleasure and pain, commerce and power, liberty and responsibility have become intertwined in the most intimate area of our lives. An ideal tool for initiating classroom discussion about this notoriously difficult subject. "

Viewer discretion advised: contains violence, nudity, and sexual imagery.

http://www.mediaed.o...em_Preview.html

Edited by TEO, 22 February 2012 - 06:34 PM.


#2 china cat

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 04:41 PM

nobody :huh:

#3 Tim the Beek

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:15 PM

Will take a look tonight...

#4 Lazy Lightning

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:19 PM

I will watch this soon as I have the chance - behind in some werk and been at it till late, but I will definitely give this a look-see!

#5 china cat

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:26 PM

Before viewing, can I ask: what are your opinions of pornography?

#6 china cat

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:31 PM

Does porn meet the criteria of "free speech?" Is it protected by the First Amendment?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

If prostitution is illegal, why is video-taped prostitution not prosecuted? Is there a contradiction here?

Can you think of any forms of pornography you believe should be outlawed?

Should there be restrictions (ex: XXX domain created on web)?

What do you think of Journalist Robert Jensen's critiques of porn?

#7 capt_morgan

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:35 PM

yes!!:jamguy: :shocked: :lol:

#8 seany

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:39 PM

Umm... you'd better holster that thing, capt, else china may not visit your camp to devour your cheezy balls anymore :undecided:

#9 capt_morgan

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:42 PM

noone can resist the cheezy ballz:devil:

#10 Lazy Lightning

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:50 PM

Before viewing, can I ask: what are your opinions of pornography?


My views on pornography are like my views on most things in life - so long as no one is forced into it, it is between two (or more) consenting adults, and so long no one is being harmed or harming anyone else by participating in it, I have no issues with it.

Personally, I'm not big into watching it, and I don't feel one way or another about other folks watching it, be they friends, lovers, or my partner. I find it extreme that some folks view watching porn as "cheating" or being "cheated on" in a relationship.

Does porn meet the criteria of "free speech?" Is it protected by the First Amendment?


I don't know. Does art? I'm not well versed in the amendments and what is protected and what isn't since I am not American. Given the wording, shouldn't nearly everything be protected? The Occupy movement sure was shut-down at every turn, and that seems to me to be a right that should be protected.

I don't think the law should have any say in people's sex lives so long as my above listed criteria is met (no harm, no minors, no animals who can't consent, no one being forced into it against their own will.) Stuff gets censored all of the time, if you have the right amount of money/influence it seems like you can get whatever you want taken off the shelves.

If prostitution is illegal, why is video-taped prostitution not prosecuted? Is there a contradiction here?


Prostitution is legal in some places. Should it be okay where prostitution is legal, and prosecuted where prostitution is illegal? And then I would think we should even question whether or not prostitution should be legalized. Or drugs. It kinda snowballs at that point. I don't have an opinion either way b/c it's not something that really effects me.

Can you think of any forms of pornography you believe should be outlawed?


I don't know of any pornography that isn't already outlawed that should be. Then again, I'm not much exposed to it, so there are certainly some flavours out there to which I am unaware. At the same time, I have seen some extreme/crazy shit. Are they hurting or forcing someone against their will to participate tho? If not, then why should it be outlawed?

#11 Jabadoodle

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:51 PM

Watched. Thoughts forming.

#12 seany

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:56 PM

Thank you, Lola, for your thoughtful comments. :smile: That's pretty close to where I stand on the issues with porn.

If I have time, I will watch and join in the discussion...

#13 PeaceFrog

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 06:43 PM

Don't like porn? Don't look at it.

#14 Tim the Beek

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 07:18 PM

K, to answer your questions, I would be rewriting what Lola wrote by and large, so I won't.

#15 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:02 PM

K, to answer your questions, I would be rewriting what Lola wrote by and large, so I won't.

:smile:

#16 Lazy Lightning

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:18 PM

Oh, c'mon you guys... You're not NOT American... :lol:

I'm not well versed in the amendments and what is protected and what isn't since I am not American.


:funny1:

#17 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:28 PM

:lol:

Not that part, lollercoaster. :rolling:

I know that document rather well.

#18 TEO

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:28 PM

I would not be plagiarizing Lola as we learned that was a no-no in school.

#19 TEO

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:30 PM

Prior to watching, I am of this opinion if everyone is consenting and it harms no one then it is none of my business.

On the other hand, are some people drugged, coerced, etc into being in porn, I would suspect that is the case.

#20 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:33 PM

On the other hand, are some people drugged, coerced, etc into being in porn, I would suspect that is the case.


I would concur. It's very likely the case. A horrible thing too.

#21 PeaceFrog

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:42 PM

you mean it isn't every girl's dream to be a porn star?

#22 Depends

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:01 PM

I Lola said it best.... My feelings 100%

The people I knew in the industry(mid 80's) were (and still are) very supportive of the industry. Jody Maxwell is an old friend (http://www.jodymaxwell.com/index.html). She has lots of good stories to tell. She is just your normal girl next door, with a PhD, who just happens to be a former porn star. Friend her on FB. If you are a friend of mine on FB, she will accept your invite.
One of my craziest friends, Annie Sprinkle [www.anniesprinkle.org(asm)] is also a PhD

#23 Tim the Beek

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:09 PM

I would not be plagiarizing Lola as we learned that was a no-no in school.


Not where I'm from in Canada, it wasn't. :one:

#24 jnjn

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:13 PM

re. the legality of porn if prostitution is illegal...prostitution involves the exchange of money from one individual to another for sex, but w/ porn you have both (or more) individuals being paid as "actors" by an uninvolved individual. could that be the technicality that keeps porn legal? i'm not sure, but that's the best i could come up w/.

good question, cc...i'm curious how it's kept legal if filmed in a state where prostitution is illegal.

#25 Depends

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:38 PM

Porn actors/actresses are not prostitutes. They are not being paid to have sex, they are being paid to act. Just like any other love scene in a mainstream movie.

#26 seany

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:41 PM

Now you've done it - china's head just exploded! Good luck w/ that. :lol:

#27 jnjn

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:46 PM

Porn actors/actresses are not prostitutes. They are not being paid to have sex, they are being paid to act. Just like any other love scene in a mainstream movie.


yea, that's pretty much what i was thinking

#28 Tim the Beek

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 10:10 PM

K, to answer your questions, I would be rewriting what Tim wrote by and large, so I won't.

:smile:


Give credit where credit's due, breh. Sheesh. :funny1:

#29 TEO

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 10:12 PM

Not where I'm from in Canada, it wasn't.




Is that why your mouth/lips move the way they do when you speak? :crazy:

#30 china cat

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:16 PM

re. the legality of porn if prostitution is illegal...prostitution involves the exchange of money from one individual to another for sex, but w/ porn you have both (or more) individuals being paid as "actors" by an uninvolved individual. could that be the technicality that keeps porn legal? i'm not sure, but that's the best i could come up w/.

good question, cc...i'm curious how it's kept legal if filmed in a state where prostitution is illegal.


I suppose that's how they justify it but here is a legal definition of prostitution:

The following is an example of a New Mexico statute defining prostitution:
"Prostitution consists of knowingly engaging in or offering to engage in a sexual act for hire. As used in this section "sexual act" means sexual intercourse, cunnilingus, fellatio, masturbation of another, anal intercourse or the causing of penetration to any extent and with any object of the genital or anal opening of another, whether or not there is any emission. Whoever commits prostitution is guilty of a petty misdemeanor, unless such crime is a second or subsequent conviction, in which case such person is guilty of a misdemeanor."


I would imagine porn meets this definition?

#31 Lazy Lightning

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:21 PM

re. the legality of porn if prostitution is illegal...prostitution involves the exchange of money from one individual to another for sex, but w/ porn you have both (or more) individuals being paid as "actors" by an uninvolved individual. could that be the technicality that keeps porn legal? i'm not sure, but that's the best i could come up w/.


I thought so as well, but the actual definition of prostitution that I found was:

"the act or practice of engaging in promiscuous sexual relations especially for money"

Not sure if the legal definition is different from the language definition, but as the definition I found does not state that it is only one person being paid, I didn't make a note of it in my post.

(ah, I see CC found a legal definition, thanks, I was curious)

#32 china cat

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:23 PM

The question of harm: certainly many industries/products cause harm and are still legal. So even if it causes harm (and I think it does), admittedly, that's not enough of a reason to criminalize it.

Wondering if we can move away from "personal choice" argument and legal arguments (though I did bring that up) and approach from a spiritual, relational, and cultural perspective.

Perspectives on the pervasiveness of misogyny within mainstream porn?

Interested in responses after viewing.

#33 china cat

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:25 PM

Porn actors/actresses are not prostitutes. They are not being paid to have sex, they are being paid to act. Just like any other love scene in a mainstream movie.


Prostitutes, as well, are most certainly "acting"

#34 PeaceFrog

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:03 AM

I think I watched the movie on Netflix a while ago and it made me horny.

So what's the issue here? Is it pornography? Is it prostitution? Or is it the exploitation of people in desperation? because those are 3 different things. I have no issue with the first 2.

#35 Depends

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:10 AM

Under Miller v. California, as long as a work, taken as a whole, has "serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value," the First Amendment protects its distribution.

likewise, if 2 people want to have sex in private, and one is being paid, and one is receiving gratifacation, the law says that is prostitution. If, however, both members of the couple are in it for the money, and there is a man with a camera taping them, then the sex is insulated by the Constitution from legal regulation.

-Sherry F Colb professor and Frederick B. Lacey Scholar at Rutgers Law School in Newark, New Jersey.

#36 PeaceFrog

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:23 AM

my question is: Why are people so concerned about what others are doing sexually?

#37 china cat

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:37 AM

Under Miller v. California, as long as a work, taken as a whole, has "serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value," the First Amendment protects its distribution.

likewise, if 2 people want to have sex in private, and one is being paid, and one is receiving gratifacation, the law says that is prostitution. If, however, both members of the couple are in it for the money, and there is a man with a camera taping them, then the sex is insulated by the Constitution from legal regulation.

-Sherry F Colb professor and Frederick B. Lacey Scholar at Rutgers Law School in Newark, New Jersey.


Hi M

I know the Supreme Court definition well. The court is surely on a collision course with itself because words (by nature) are arbitrary, abstract, and ambiguous - there really is no clear definition upon which people will agree. We're livin in a postmodern world

"Obscene" speech is not protected by the First Amendment. Which is speech that lacks S.L.A.P (scientific, literary, artistic, political) value.

We'd all be hard pressed to find S.L.A.P. value in today's hardcore porn. Again, though, who decides?

#38 Depends

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:49 AM

I think the industry gets a bad rap (sometimes justifible so) with coerced, or forced participation. I have been away from the industry for many years, and I'm not familiar with what goes on today. But I would be hard pressed to shutdown an industry because some people involved do illegal things. Many doctors, lawyers, and priests do illegal things, but we don't call for their industries to be outlawed.

I encourage you to contact some of my friends. Let an real insider (no pun!) tell you what goes on most of the time...

(BTW. I never worked in the industry, just ran with a group of friends....)

#39 Tim the Beek

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:51 AM

I don't think it's possible for me to move entirely to away from the personal choice/legal arguments. They're too important to me, whether I choose to watch porn or not. And I don't often. In order of hotness, I much prefer what goes on in my head, and then audio/video from someone I've been with, or might be with in the future, to strangers.

A side note about porn I've seen...I would much rather the focus be on the women's faces than on parts smashing into each other. Maybe that's part of the "spiritual/relational" perspectives for me. And while talking dirty has its place sometimes for me, hearing people "say it like they don't mean it" is a turnoff. For me. Then again, I've never been in a strip club...I'm a weird guy. :funny1: Maybe someday I will for the experience. I dunno.

Another thought, and this is all sort of stream of consciousness...I wonder if culturally, the wide acceptance of porn isn't a backlash against a couple of millenia of sex being made shameful in western society. While I'd prefer it to always be a respectful and caring (and I think it can be, even when it's animalistic, loud, and raw), it's perhaps worse in my eyes that that not always be the case than that something natural, which should bring people closer together (for one night or several thousand) has long been treated as sinful and wrong.

Maybe part of the distastefulness of a lot of porn is rooted in confusion between those two mindsets.

"And if you're bothered by it, there's really nowhere to go."

I disagree, while it might not be easy, we'd all do well to unplug from the majority of modern media. It's a choice we can make.

Sex/intimacy as a commodity...capitalism, etc. :

The clip where the young woman discussed her compensation for different types of scenes bothered me, but it is her choice whether or not to accept those rates.

"When your best choice is taking off you clothes and sticking toys in your c**t for money, I think there's a real problem with the labor system."

I agree to some extent. Though there are other jobs...they may pay less, but they're there. I could choose to do things which pay more than what I currently do, but I'm not willing to.

I don't like most of what I saw in the documentary, but I come back to the notion that as long as what is filmed is consensual, it's not my place to get in its way. Though it is my responsibility to try to educate people to seeing sex in a different way when I can.

Re: pornography "bleeding into" the way men have sex: I'm sure there's some truth to this, but I'm as sure that sometimes hair pulling, and biting and the like would be part of sex if there'd never been a movie made about it.


One last thing, re: the girl who found the Playboys and thought her mother wasn't good enough for her father...

A couple of thoughts...I wish her parents had discussed this with her at some point. As some of you know, I'm not big on the idea of monogamy as a natural system of relationships. We could have an entire discussion about that sometime. But if we can stipulate for a moment that that's true, then if people are shoehorned into an unnatural way of being, there's bound to be some outlet...

It's a tough subject, and I don't know if anything I've written above makes any sense.

Spiritually, culturally, relationally, I think it's a sign of broader problems we have as a society...

#40 TEO

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:02 AM

Right on Tim!

#41 Depends

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:06 AM

Right on Tim!


Prolly heard that more than a few times in a porno.

"Where did that shot land?"

"Right on Tim."


:lmao:

#42 Tim the Beek

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:08 AM

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

#43 TEO

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:15 AM

:rotf:

#44 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:09 AM

I don't think it's possible for me to move entirely to away from the personal choice/legal arguments. They're too important to me, whether I choose to watch porn or not. And I don't often. In order of hotness, I much prefer what goes on in my head, and then audio/video from someone I've been with, or might be with in the future, to strangers.

A side note about porn I've seen...I would much rather the focus be on the women's faces than on parts smashing into each other. Maybe that's part of the "spiritual/relational" perspectives for me. And while talking dirty has its place sometimes for me, hearing people "say it like they don't mean it" is a turnoff. For me. Then again, I've never been in a strip club...I'm a weird guy. :funny1: Maybe someday I will for the experience. I dunno.

Another thought, and this is all sort of stream of consciousness...I wonder if culturally, the wide acceptance of porn isn't a backlash against a couple of millenia of sex being made shameful in western society. While I'd prefer it to always be a respectful and caring (and I think it can be, even when it's animalistic, loud, and raw), it's perhaps worse in my eyes that that not always be the case than that something natural, which should bring people closer together (for one night or several thousand) has long been treated as sinful and wrong.

Maybe part of the distastefulness of a lot of porn is rooted in confusion between those two mindsets.

"And if you're bothered by it, there's really nowhere to go."

I disagree, while it might not be easy, we'd all do well to unplug from the majority of modern media. It's a choice we can make.

Sex/intimacy as a commodity...capitalism, etc. :

The clip where the young woman discussed her compensation for different types of scenes bothered me, but it is her choice whether or not to accept those rates.

"When your best choice is taking off you clothes and sticking toys in your c**t for money, I think there's a real problem with the labor system."

I agree to some extent. Though there are other jobs...they may pay less, but they're there. I could choose to do things which pay more than what I currently do, but I'm not willing to.

I don't like most of what I saw in the documentary, but I come back to the notion that as long as what is filmed is consensual, it's not my place to get in its way. Though it is my responsibility to try to educate people to seeing sex in a different way when I can.

Re: pornography "bleeding into" the way men have sex: I'm sure there's some truth to this, but I'm as sure that sometimes hair pulling, and biting and the like would be part of sex if there'd never been a movie made about it.


One last thing, re: the girl who found the Playboys and thought her mother wasn't good enough for her father...

A couple of thoughts...I wish her parents had discussed this with her at some point. As some of you know, I'm not big on the idea of monogamy as a natural system of relationships. We could have an entire discussion about that sometime. But if we can stipulate for a moment that that's true, then if people are shoehorned into an unnatural way of being, there's bound to be some outlet...

It's a tough subject, and I don't know if anything I've written above makes any sense.

Spiritually, culturally, relationally, I think it's a sign of broader problems we have as a society...


:lmao::lmao::lmao:


:rotf:


:lmao::lmao::lmao:

:rotf:

#45 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:10 AM

FAIL.

Macolms post should be in there too. :undecided:

Im losing my edge.

#46 TEO

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:13 AM

Sticky Fingers?

#47 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:16 AM

:lol:

#48 seany

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:17 AM

prolly going blind. prolly. :coffee:

#49 Lazy Lightning

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:18 AM

My thoughts on what I saw in bits and bites:

====

The "virtual child pornography" thing is just creepy and wrong. I wasn't even aware that there was stuff out there like that, nor that it was legal. I don't agree with encouraging that sort of attraction, people are not always able to turn the switch off and differentiate fantasy from reality (this was mentioned in the film a few times, but never in context to the virtual child pornography.)

I disagree with the "I have no other choice" argument. Everyone has a choice. If someone chooses to go into porn b/c they feel they can make more money there than they would doing something else, that is their choice. If they went into an entry level job, at least they could have the possibility of moving up thru the ranks and bettering their pay. I think going into porn with the idea that it'll be better than working your way up in another industry is a fool's bet - good luck when no one wants to see you in a porn shoot anymore - we all know that porn stars have a shelf life and another hunderd people standing behind them ready to cue up for their chance at all that "fame and money" - and then you'll be back at square one, looking for that entry level job. You'd have to be pretty ignorant not to be able to see that far ahead.

The "Girls Gone Wild" phenomenon is something else - I think that many younger folks confuse sex and desire with love and affection. I see this with young kids posting highly inappropriate pictures to their FB pages and such. There *is* a difference between positive and negative attention, kiddos.

That "Burning Angel" crap was pathetic! :lol:

The whole "porn uses racial stereotypes and objectifies women" - yeah, so tell me something new. Like rape, it's more about power than sexuality.

I agree that the future growth of the porn industry is in the torture films. I have seen more and more of this cropping up. Some of it is so extreme that it turns my stomach. I know some folks who have modelled for it in the past, so I also know that they consented to it. Everything just seems to keep getting more and more extreme as the "regular stuff" gets old.

The closing statements by the guy from UMass are bang on the money - the porn industry is market driven and always striving for financial and market growth. Like every other thing out there, it would seem.

There wasn't really anything sexy going on in that entire film.

====

Did it change any of my perspective on porn? Nope. How do I feel about porn spiritually/culturally/relationally? The same as I did in my first post, I can't separate my spiritual nature and my relationship from my personal choices and opinions. Culturally, we are such a sexually repressed society, it's no wonder there is so much porn and sexual confusion out there. Also, culturally, the weirdest most hardcore stuff I have ever seen has been in Japanese porn flicks.

If you want to see a really depressing account of a porn star's life, check out "The Annabel Chong Story: Anal Queen"

I still stand by if that's what people consent to, then that is theie choice - my choice is that I don't need to support, view or participate in it.

#50 Depends

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:53 AM

FAIL.

Macolms post should be in there too. :undecided:

Im losing my edge.


double fail. My post makes no sense without TEO's before it....:dunno: