47 replies to this topic

[roo]

Over the last decade or so people have taken their sobriety the way they take their food.. Fast. and they want it now. Truth is 28 days ONLY gets the alcohol and drugs out of your system ,no more physical dependence. which is the only reason i believe rehab serves a purpose. (my opinion)

28 days only started because its all insurance co.'s would pay for. Huh go figure? if you couldnt pay for it yourself rehabs turned to insurance companies because in reality how many drug addicts or alcoholics have money or a job by the time they even get to rehab.

i digress ,my point is since 28 days is all a rehab gets with you they tell someone to go to AA or NA. Oh and take these suggestions with you.. "do 90 meetings in 90 days" and "No relationships for a year". by doing this the Message has somewhat become muddied with rehab shit. yeah.. shit.

by doing this.. rehabs have done aa and na a great diservice. if you want to get sober all you need is in the big book. It was written in 1939!!!!!!!! NOT A SINGLE WORD has been changed since!!!!!! it is how the FIRST 100 people in aa got sober stayed sober and died sober after many many many years of sobriety.

Before there was any rehab AA and NAs sobriety rate was 3 in 4. since rehab started dumping their people into the program the number has dropped. In other words.. "hey rehab!! get YOUR SHIT TOGETHER MAN!!

[In A Silent Way]

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.

[In A Silent Way]

And with that, I'm on my way to the Sunday night BB.

[roo]

i likes me a goood BB meeting

[In A Silent Way]

The Vicious Cycle'd.

[sarah b.]

Bed and bath? keep comin' back.

[deadphan]

While I can agree with what you're saying, if it wasn't for rehab I might not really know what AA is all about. The bottom line is ya wanna be sober or you don't imo. You can do 90 in 90, get a sponsor, work the steps, get a commitment, worship Bill W as your higher power...but still go out. Seen it a few times in my short time and IASW bein an old timer, I'm sure has seen it a lot.

[In A Silent Way]

Five years, 12 years, 20 years; people go out all the time. There's no rhyme or reason to it. Cunning, baffling, powerful.

The best advice I've ever gotten is "Stay in the middle of the herd so you don't get picked off."

[George]

I went to an IOP called rehab after work. It got me through the first six weeks while my head was still spinning and sent me in the right direction(AA). I still go to my homegroup there 3yrs later. I have seen hundreds of people come through the door never to return. When I was in IOP they told us 1 in 30 will make 1yr. I immediately thought, "Wow, these people are Fucked, cause I'm the one that's gonna make it!" I thank my higher power everyday that my union made me go to that IOP because it saved my life. I only went because I was forced. Now I go to as many meetings as I can!

[roo]

I attended the 12 in 12 on sat nov. 26th.

the history lesson i got on the big book ,aa ,rehab and the effect that rehab has had on aa was just invaluable and mind boggling. thats pretty much where this rant comes from.

i have nothing against rehab or their counselours. I do not agree with any place that boots anyone out the door after 28 days. If a person WANT to get sober and/or clean they will ,wether its by rehab or a self help program.

[Tim the Beek]

The answer is in "a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition."

Some go to rehab. Some don't. Some go to meetings. Some don't. Some stay sober. Some don't. Whatever works for each individual is what's right.

[roo]

my point is is that "AA has gotten a little too tolerant and lazy and started letting rehabs do their work" (i heard a few AA old timers say this) and that if we who have done the steps and are living step 12 their would be no reason for rehab. If people would stop telling addicts and alcoholics that they can be "cured" in 28-30 days the original message of AA and NA would stop getting blurred and watered down by the bullshit of rehabs.

[deadphan]

I disagree. Living the 12 step doesn't mean we go around telling everyone we think has a problem that they have a problem. Without rehab I wouldn't have known a damn thing about A.A. Rehab is meant to be a stepping stone the way I see, that's how it was for me anyways. The rehab I went to in no way told me that I was "cured" when I got out, they told me to get to an A.A. meeting that night or I'd be drinking. It was the first of many suggestions I listened to.

[roo]

Have you seen the commercial for Passages? its places like these that im talkin about.

yes i called and did some research. They have three "tiers of recovery" the first tier $18,500!! the second tier $45,000!!!!!!!!! the fourth teir $91,500!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! all for only THIRTY days!

[In A Silent Way]

Custy'd

[George]

I think alot of people come in before they are ready to surrender and admit they are powerless

[deadphan]

I think alot of people come in before they are ready to surrender and admit they are powerless

Bingo! And yea, that Passages place really pissed me off at first. Especially the way they say, "this really works, it's NOT a 12 step program." First it made me mad, now I can't help but laugh. In the end it doesn't matter, I'm sober today and that's what matters to me.

[Karen]

my point is is that "AA has gotten a little too tolerant and lazy and started letting rehabs do their work" (i heard a few AA old timers say this) and that if we who have done the steps and are living step 12 their would be no reason for rehab. If people would stop telling addicts and alcoholics that they can be "cured" in 28-30 days the original message of AA and NA would stop getting blurred and watered down by the bullshit of rehabs.

Are you an expert at this point in what works? Aren't you just about 6 months sober or something like that? You might benefit from focusing on your own recovery instead of putting so much energy into criticizing rehabs and their approaches/effectiveness.

Just sayin'.

[roo]

Are you an expert at this point in what works? Aren't you just about 6 months sober or something like that? You might benefit from focusing on your own recovery instead of putting so much energy into criticizing rehabs and their approaches/effectiveness.

Just sayin'.

yes karen.. im an expert. move along because your too smart for me.

[roo]

my point is is that "AA has gotten a little too tolerant and lazy and started letting rehabs do their work" (i heard a few AA old timers say this) and that if we who have done the steps and are living step 12 their would be no reason for rehab. If people would stop telling addicts and alcoholics that they can be "cured" in 28-30 days the original message of AA and NA would stop getting blurred and watered down by the bullshit of rehabs.

I disagree. Living the 12 step doesn't mean we go around telling everyone we think has a problem that they have a problem. Without rehab I wouldn't have known a damn thing about A.A. Rehab is meant to be a stepping stone the way I see, that's how it was for me anyways. The rehab I went to in no way told me that I was "cured" when I got out, they told me to get to an A.A. meeting that night or I'd be drinking. It was the first of many suggestions I listened to.

where did i say "tell everyone that we think has a problem has a problem?"
where did i say that that is even what Step 12 is?

also more importantly you just proved my point. People go to rehab ,rehab cant rehabilitate someone for life (hence why its a great place to go just to physicaly detox) and on yer way out the door they say GO TO AA/NA.

[sarah b.]

I think for some people, there's value in being pulled over (and out of their usual routines) for a while (aka rehab, among other approaches). How long insurance covers people to stay varies. People keep people sober, many times with the help and support of AA/NA, sometimes w/a stint in rehab first. Whatever works. There are enough people who need help healing to keep everyone busy.

[deadphan]

where did i say "tell everyone that we think has a problem has a problem?"
where did i say that that is even what Step 12 is?

also more importantly you just proved my point. People go to rehab ,rehab cant rehabilitate someone for life (hence why its a great place to go just to physicaly detox) and on yer way out the door they say GO TO AA/NA.

if we who have done the steps and are living step 12 their would be no reason for rehab

You really can't see where I drew that conclusion from? To me that says, "hey if we just go around and drag all the drunks into A.A. than there would be no need fore rehab except for detox purposes. Rehab helped to start my road to rehabilitation and did a lot for me. I'm not going to get into specifics, but I'm so thankful for the rehab I went to. I'm also thankful for A.A. You can't 12 step someone who doesn't want it, just like rehab can't "cure" someone that doesn't want it. A.A. can't rehabilitate someone for life, but it can help me today, and God willing, it'll help me tomorrow, but that's not my call.

[roo]

Step 12 (and i quote) Having had a Spiritual Awakening as a direct result of these steps we tried to carry this message to other alcoholics ,and to practice these steps in all our affairs.

now nowhere in there or did i ever say go grab every alcoholic i could find and drag him to AA. YOU ASSUMED and got a resentment about it instead of askin what i meant. The fact is it becomes our RESPONSIBILTY to carry this message to other alcoholics and AA/NA has become lazy in doing so. Slacking if you will. The first 100 would often go directly to hospitals ,to sanitariums (yes back in the day they put alcoholics in sanitariums because cops and doctors didnt know what else to do with them) and yes bars but only to sit ,drink some soda and let the drunk come to them. (sneaky but it worked on many occasion) all these practices became extinct through the years when rehabs started to pop up.

Now go back to the beginning of this thread re read everything i posted which is ALL FACTUAL STATISTICS and tell me that AA/NA hasnt become lazy. Had they not ,rehabs might not be around.

i get my information directly from the Old timers. The accounts of the difference of before and after rehabs is astounding.

[deadphan]

You posted your opinion. Not one statistic brah. Nope, not a one. It's attraction rather promotion, A.A. is still A.A. The same argument could be made that the difference is because now there's a lot more people that are exposed to A.A. because of rehabs that otherwise might not be. Myself being one such case. And the fact that you accused me of getting a resentment is laughable. Give me a break man, you're posting your opinion as fact and now you can judge if someone has a resentment over the interwebs. You say I assumed something and got a resentment, well aren't you assuming that I got a resentment?

[roo]

no one on the planet can ever be honest when saying they never not once heard of aa until they went to rehab.

[roo]

and furthermore the FACT is 9 in every 10 people in rehab are remanded there by probation parole and or drug court.

[TEO]

(((Whatever works to heal that does not harm another.)))

[deadheadskier]

(((Whatever works to heal that does not harm another.)))

this.

it's pretty stupid bickering about it and declaring some treatments / programs are better than others.

[Tim the Beek]

Sigh.

I hesitate to get too deeply involved in this, as I'm no shining AA poster boy...there are some things I believe which would be considered heretical to many. But...

the original message of AA and NA...

I'm curious what you think this "original message" is, as, other than for maybe a tweek here and there, none of it is original.

rehab cant rehabilitate someone for life

This isn't true. I've known people who went into a 28 day program and turned their lives around completely.

The first 100 would often go directly to hospitals...all these practices became extinct through the years when rehabs started to pop up.

Those practices aren't extinct. Perhaps the advent of treatment programs has made them less commonplace. But they're far from extinct.

i get my information directly from the Old timers.

There are plenty of old timers who haven't found deep and abiding humility in their lives (the heart of the "message" of the steps, IMO). I personally put more stock in how someone carries himself, and less on how long he's been around.

The dude with 4 months, who knows that he doesn't know all of the answers, is more sober than the "Old Timer" who shares at every meeting that he's been around since 1987 and that his way is "the" way. In my opinion.

roo, I have a sense that you're deeply grateful for what the fellowship and steps have done for you. That's a wonderful thing. Please just keep in mind that no one, and no group, is infallible, and that there's seldom only one route to the answer to any given problem.

[In A Silent Way]

I recommend reading the story "Gutter Bravado" starting on p. 501 in the Big Book for a good description of how in-patient treatment worked for somebody.

[Tim the Beek]

I recommend reading the story "Gutter Bravado" starting on p. 501 in the Big Book for a good description of how in-patient treatment worked for somebody.

Is this from the fourth edition? I've been around way too long to read such swill.

[In A Silent Way]

Is this from the fourth edition? I've been around way too long to read such swill.

Too sober for the Big Book?

Yes, 4th ed.

[Tim the Beek]

Too sober for the Big Book?

Yes, 4th ed.

Naw, just been around too long to be bothered to read the 4th Edition. It's for gneubs.*

It's a fine story.

*There are plenty of old timers who haven't found deep and abiding humility in their lives (the heart of the "message" of the steps, IMO). I personally put more stock in how someone carries himself, and less on how long he's been around.

The dude with 4 months, who knows that he doesn't know all of the answers, is more sober than the "Old Timer" who shares at every meeting that he's been around since 1987 and that his way is "the" way. In my opinion.

[TEO]

[Karen]

yes karen.. im an expert. move along because your too smart for me.

[Tim the Beek]

Hope it's clear that I'm funnin' up above IASW.

Though they should oughn't have screwed with things in such a way that alla those Page 449 stickers and stuff became obsolete. And I'm more a fan of the 3rd Ed. Page 452 myself.

Then again, how important is it, really? :funny1::funny1:

[In A Silent Way]

Though they should oughn't have screwed with things in such a way that alla those Page 449 stickers and stuff became obsolete.

Oh, so now you have a resentment for the editors who moved the famous p. 449 paragraph to a different page?

[Tim the Beek]

I like to think I've earned it, since I've got everything figured out.

Suite post timing here on my part.

[sarah b.]

Every time someone says they have a resentment, i want to shoot a nerf dart at them in the most loving possible way.

[roo]

jeez i go to work for one day and i miss alll this:coffee:

[roo]

I recommend reading the story "Gutter Bravado" starting on p. 501 in the Big Book for a good description of how in-patient treatment worked for somebody.

holy shit!! my fav story!! i cant believe you just pulled that off the top of yer head!!!!!!!!!!!! i was lookin for a random story and of course go figure the words Gutter and Bravado caught my attention.

[roo]

Oh, so now you have a resentment for the editors who moved the famous p. 449 paragraph to a different page?

HAAAaaaaa i see what ya did there:wink:

[roo]

Sigh.

I hesitate to get too deeply involved in this, as I'm no shining AA poster boy...there are some things I believe which would be considered heretical to many. But...



I'm curious what you think this "original message" is, as, other than for maybe a tweek here and there, none of it is original.



This isn't true. I've known people who went into a 28 day program and turned their lives around completely.



Those practices aren't extinct. Perhaps the advent of treatment programs has made them less commonplace. But they're far from extinct.



There are plenty of old timers who haven't found deep and abiding humility in their lives (the heart of the "message" of the steps, IMO). I personally put more stock in how someone carries himself, and less on how long he's been around.

The dude with 4 months, who knows that he doesn't know all of the answers, is more sober than the "Old Timer" who shares at every meeting that he's been around since 1987 and that his way is "the" way. In my opinion.

roo, I have a sense that you're deeply grateful for what the fellowship and steps have done for you. That's a wonderful thing. Please just keep in mind that no one, and no group, is infallible, and that there's seldom only one route to the answer to any given problem.

this whole post is like the guy that speaks and says"i'm gonna keep it short" but speaks for 30 minutes of the hour! oh wait you did that when you said i dont want to get too deeply involved:lmao: seriously jk
idk how to respond like you did with all the inbetween comments!?

[Karen]

idk how to respond like you did with all the inbetween comments!?

yes karen.. im an expert. move along because your too smart for me.

[Lazy Lightning]

I am thankful for rehab b/c it helped a very close friend of mine turn her life completely around - she is now healthy and drug-free, and getting married to the love-of-her-life - if that isn't the start of a happy ending, then I don't know what is!

Whatever works, works. You'll see no judgement from me in so far as improving oneself goes.

[CharlieHarper]

[quote name='roo']Step 12 (and i quote) Having had a Spiritual Awakening as a direct result of these steps we tried to carry this message to other alcoholics ,and to practice these steps in all our affairs.
[/QUOTE]

Just for the record I had to correct you on this one...

and I quote .... Step 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

https://encrypted-tb...2jlk69X5hjk1J8w

[In A Silent Way]

We stood at the turning point ...

stop me if you've heard this one before ...

[roo]