240 replies to this topic

[Joker]

I would imagine that is because the chance of physical violence and injury to both students and cops would be greater if they started reaching in trying to tear them away. The pepper spray was a lesser amount of force than going that way

[bigtoddy]

Jack, you are wrong, you are in the wrong, and my opinion of you as a person has diminished over the past 2 months - dramatically. I realize that I matter to you very little, if at all, that does not change the fact that after 2 months of this, you are not a person I would like to associate with. The attitudes and beliefs you have portrayed are such that I would be uncomfortable with you at my house, or seeing you at a show, or having any interaction at all with you. We are all entitled to our beliefs, and I disagree with yours so strongly, I cannot see that we have any common ground or basis for cordiality in any way whatsoever. You, sir, are persona non grata to me.

[Joker]

Jack, you are wrong,

Where am I wrong?

[unbroken_chain]

when my patent for my post tacobellFartSprayNon_Lethal_Crowd_Dispersant is approved, Ima gonna be rich as heck.

to date, NO ONE has been able to remain in the location where I have.. .well, you know... tested it. Late last week I did a field test on the Orange Line... all but one individual promptly relocated to the other side of the train... the remaining individual was a passed out drunk, who simply pawed at his nose and mumbled "get off me fido"

[In A Silent Way]

[unbroken_chain]

but more seriously:
Malodorants are still in development. They are basically foul-smelling concoctions.

Although a foul order may cause you to moan, groan, or even run screaming the other way, they do not cause any physiological harm.

Unlike many other non lethal weapons, such as tear gas or pepper spray, which can cause bronchial irritation.

Malodorants are essentially harmless.

[vic]

President Yudof responds to campus protest issues
Email this articleDate: 2011-11-20
Contact: UC Office of the President
Phone: (510) 987-9157
Email:
University of California President Mark G. Yudof today (Nov. 20) announced the actions he is taking in response to recent campus protest issues:

I am appalled by images of University of California students being doused with pepper spray and jabbed with police batons on our campuses.


I intend to do everything in my power as president of this university to protect the rights of our students, faculty and staff to engage in non-violent protest.


Chancellors at the UC Davis and UC Berkeley campuses already have initiated reviews of incidents that occurred on their campuses. I applaud this rapid response and eagerly await the results.


The University of California, however, is a single university with 10 campuses, and the incidents in recent days cry out for a systemwide response.


Therefore I will be taking immediate steps to set that response in motion.


I intend to convene all 10 chancellors, either in person or by telephone, to engage in a full and unfettered discussion about how to ensure proportional law enforcement response to non-violent protest.


To that end, I will be asking the chancellors to forward to me at once all relevant protocols and policies already in place on their individual campuses, as well as those that apply to the engagement of non-campus police agencies through mutual aid agreements.


Further, I already have taken steps to assemble experts and stakeholders to conduct a thorough, far-reaching and urgent assessment of campus police procedures involving use of force, including post-incident review processes.


My intention is not to micromanage our campus police forces. The sworn officers who serve on our campuses are professionals dedicated to the protection of the UC community.


Nor do I wish to micromanage the chancellors. They are the leaders of our campuses and they have my full trust and confidence.


Nonetheless, the recent incidents make clear the time has come to take strong action to recommit to the ideal of peaceful protest.

As I have said before, free speech is part of the DNA of this university, and non-violent protest has long been central to our history. It is a value we must protect with vigilance. I implore students who wish to demonstrate to do so in a peaceful and lawful fashion. I expect campus authorities to honor that right.

http://www.universit...s/article/26702

the president of the university is more appaled than the police department. this is where we're at right now.

[Tim the Beek]

Jack, I never thought that much of you to begin with, so we're cool.

[Joker]

Jack, I never thought that much of you to begin with, so we're cool.

There ya go, set your expectations low and you won't be disappointed

[DancingBearly]

Jack they never prevented the officers from leaving. The officers never tried, they were stammied. They are supposed to serve and protect the public not attack them. Since it's the people taxes that pay for their salaries and the city/state just distributes it they should say to me before they step over me as I am sitting there peacefully is " excuse me but I need to pass in order to do my job of protecting public and in doing so will not stop you from exercising your rights. Thank you I do appreciate your cooperation and have a nice day citizen."
I know that's a stretch but they should be considerate of the puplic and not perceive them as the enemy.

[unbroken_chain]

I coulda jumped over them fuckers with a 30 pack under each arm... I've done it at ILCC before

[In A Silent Way]

[Tim the Beek]

[Spidergawd]

IASW for the freakin' WIN!!!

[Joker]

Jack they never prevented the officers from leaving. The officers never tried, they were stammied. They are supposed to serve and protect the public not attack them. Since it's the people taxes that pay for their salaries and the city/state just distributes it they should say to me before they step over me as I am sitting there peacefully is " excuse me but I need to pass in order to do my job of protecting public and in doing so will not stop you from exercising your rights. Thank you I do appreciate your cooperation and have a nice day citizen."
I know that's a stretch but they should be considerate of the puplic and not perceive them as the enemy.

What were they doing there surrounding the cops if not blocking them from leaving? It doesn't appear they were sitting there when the cops originally went in.

They are preventing them from leaving by sitting there with their arms locked. It looks to me like the cops did warn them and asked them to move and they refused.

I would think their doing so while the cops were in the process of taking others into custody could be considered criminal in itself.

I'd also argue that chants of "fuck the police" "police use weapon" etc... along with their blocking the way out created a hostile rather than peaceful environment.

[Joker]

I coulda jumped over them fuckers with a 30 pack under each arm... I've done it at ILCC before

If they had tried to go over them with protesters in cuffs and one of them fell face first it would have all been the cops fault.

Oh and ILCC bikers are pussies* for letting you get away with it without taking a few beers for themselves





*note if Vibes go back to ILCC I meant pussies in the nicest way possible

[vic]

[vic]

Egypt, Protest
Egyptian military say their tactics are no worse than the methods used by US police against Occupy protesters
Posted by David Wendt ⋅ November 20, 2011 ⋅ 48 Comments
Filed Under Tahrir Square
The Egyptian military, battling renewed demonstrations in Tahrir Square, have defended their used of force against protesters by comparing themselves to police in the US who are dealing with the Occupy protests.

According to various sources, officials on Egyptian TV have asked why they are being criticised when similar tactics are allegedly being used against peaceful protesters in America.

The comments come in the wake of controversial tactics used by police in a number of US cities. Just in the past week, 84-year-old Dorli Rainey was allegedly pepper-sprayed by police at Occupy Seattle and protesters at UC Davis were pepper-sprayed after police claimed they felt threatened by a bunch of people sitting on the ground.

http://100gf.wordpre...upy-protesters/

[deadheadskier]

I'm just having some fun looking at things from the other side.

missed this

so you don't really believe the cops were justified in pepper spraying the kids, you're just trolling?

[DancingBearly]

What were they doing there surrounding the cops if not blocking them from leaving? It doesn't appear they were sitting there when the cops originally went in.

They are preventing them from leaving by sitting there with their arms locked. It looks to me like the cops did warn them and asked them to move and they refused.

I would think their doing so while the cops were in the process of taking others into custody could be considered criminal in itself.

I'd also argue that chants of "fuck the police" "police use weapon" etc... along with their blocking the way out created a hostile rather than peaceful environment.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" Didn't they learn that in first grade? New headline " Police threatened by free speech"

[Joker]

missed this

so you don't really believe the cops were justified in pepper spraying the kids, you're just trolling?

Oh, I believe they were justified in spraying those interfering with them while they were trying to remove arrestees.

Those of you who don't might want to think how it would play out in other situations. Sadly none of you seem to want to stand up and respond to the questions I've asked regarding that.

It's a big picture but it seems like some of you prefer not to look at it all.

[deadheadskier]

Joker

Your questions have been answered many times. You just didn't like the answers.

[Joker]

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" Didn't they learn that in first grade? New headline " Police threatened by free speech"

Nobody said anything about it hurting anyone's feelings or being threatened by their words.


The students WANTED this confrontation with the police and they went as far as blocking their exit to achieve that goal.

[Joker]

Joker

Your questions have been answered many times. You just didn't like the answers.

Really? Where were these answered?

Do you think the protesters were right to prevent the police from leaving?

What should the cops have done to get out?

Imagine walking down the street peacefully and a gang encircles you and starts yelling, swearing and taunting you while preventing you from going on your way.

What would you do?

[DancingBearly]

Again I ask when did the officers attempt to leave? They were confused at what to do so resorted to what they know; provoking violence.
Who do cops serve? Answer should be the public. These students are the public not the enemy.

[DancingBearly]

Answer 1 cops were not prevented from leaving because they did not try.
Answer 2 inform citizens that I am going to step over you then do so. Then if the cops is interfered with he has a right to protect himself.
There satisfied?

[Joker]

And again, they were trying to leave when the protesters blocked them, I don't think there is actual video of it.

How were they confused? They asked the students to move and when the students refused they used the least amount of force they could in order to move them out of their way.

I'd say once the students chose to interfere with them doing their job they went from "public" to "perp." Like it or not, you just can't interfere with a cop making an arrest without expecting repercussions

[DancingBearly]

But like I said they could have just stepped over them. The proved so when they sprayed them.

[Joker]

Answer 1 cops were not prevented from leaving because they did not try.
Answer 2 inform citizens that I am going to step over you then do so. Then if the cops is interfered with he has a right to protect himself.
There satisfied?

1. Do you honestly believe the cops were just standing there for the sake of standing there? Hell, once they got them cleared out they continued down the path and out.

2. And if in the process of stepping over someone they trip and fall or a student gets injured or the arrestees fall and gets injured it's on the cop. Nobody is required to put himself, or anybody else, in harm's way just because someone else wants to sit in the middle of a public walkway

3. ?

[Joker]

But like I said they could have just stepped over them. The proved so when they sprayed them.

It's possible they could have but they aren't required to do so. Apparently in this case they chose not to in order to prevent possible injury to themselves and others.

[Julius]

Is that Howie in front taking it in the face?

[DancingBearly]

3. Ask them what their beef was with me an how can we peacefully resolve it.

[Joker]

and if that doesn't work?

There's obviously nothing the cops could have done in this situation that could have peacefully resolved this

[Julius]

and I don't think Joker really believes what he's saying here. . . he's just being argumentative.

[deadheadskier]

Really? Where were these answered?

Do you think the protesters were right to prevent the police from leaving?

What should the cops have done to get out?

Imagine walking down the street peacefully and a gang encircles you and starts yelling, swearing and taunting you while preventing you from going on your way.

What would you do?

A. They were not prevented from leaving. There is zero proof to that statement. There is plenty of proof to the contrary when the cop stepped over them without issue.

B. Stepped over them. Just like the one cop did.

C. If I encountered a gang doing exactly what the students did and I had a group of 20 friends with me all in full riot gear? I'd ignore them and step over the gang members who are sitting on the ground. I'd only use force if I had to. The cops DID NOT HAVE TO USE FORCE.

[Joker]

and I don't think Joker really believes what he's saying here. . . he's just being argumentative.

No, in this case there's no doubt this is on the kids.

Let the cops go on their way and there's no problem. What the hell are they trying to "protest" by preventing them from walking out?

[wonka]

I'll bite...

Do you think the protesters were right to prevent the police from leaving?

I didn't see a single protester stop any officer from leaving. Where in the videos does it show an officer trying to leave but being stopped/grabbed/pushed back by a protester. Looks to me like the police were standing around and not actively trying to leave.

What should the cops have done to get out?

walk around protesters. step over protesters (if a protester then tried to grab an officer who was leaving, then use spray, but don't spray first).
The action taken was NOT the proper one, or else the cops wouldn't have been placed on leave.

Imagine walking down the street peacefully and a gang encircles you and starts yelling, swearing and taunting you while preventing you from going on your way.

What would you do?

So, the police were walking peacefully down the street? Or were they cutting open tents and cuffing and stuffing folks who felt they were well within their constitutional rights to be protesting as they were...
If the gang that encircled me was full of girls, professors and college kids who then sat down in front of me while I was in full riot gear and packing weapons, I don't think I would quiver in fear from their taunts. Not to mention full riot gear worn by all my pals who are with me as well...
I certainly wouldn't have been able to spray severe pain point blank range into the faces of unarmed non-violent protesters


The fact the the school has backpedaled and is now saying the actions police took were not appropriate ads weight to the argument that the cops were heavy handed in their actions against the protesters.

[deadheadskier]

and if that doesn't work?

There's obviously nothing the cops could have done in this situation that could have peacefully resolved this

what are you talking about?

They could've stepped over the students and walked away.

I hate to result to name calling Joker, but you really are making yourself look like a fucking idiot.

[Joker]

A. They were not prevented from leaving. There is zero proof to that statement. There is plenty of proof to the contrary when the cop stepped over them without issue.

B. Stepped over them. Just like the one cop did.

C. If I encountered a gang doing exactly what the students did and I had a group of 20 friends with me all in full riot gear? I'd ignore them and step over the gang members who are sitting on the ground. I'd only use force if I had to. The cops DID NOT HAVE TO USE FORCE.

1 Yeah other than them encircling the cops and locking their arms there's, then refusing to move when asked, there's no proof.

2 I've pointed out reasons why that might not have been an option.

3 Well it's an answer to A question even if it's not the one I asked
In this case it seems the cops felt they had to use pepper spray to move them as stepping over them created a chance of injuring themselves or others.

[wonka]

3 Well it's an answer to A question even if it's not the one I asked
In this case it seems the cops felt they had to use pepper spray to move them as stepping over them created a chance of injuring themselves or others.

doesn't emptying 1+ cans of pepper spray point blank into kids faces create a chance of injury? I would think stepping over would be a less violent route that would have a far less change of injuring someone.

Many folks went to the hospital as a direct result of the pepper spray that was used, which you say was used to prevent people from getting hurt? In fact, it seems the pepper spraying was the only thing to cause bodily harm on that day.

[DancingBearly]

So they injured others in order to protect themselves from a possibility of injury? Wow what pussies. Protect who? The public not themselves. If they did not want to risk injury to serve and protect they should not be cops.

[Joker]

I'll bite...



I didn't see a single protester stop any officer from leaving. Where in the videos does it show an officer trying to leave but being stopped/grabbed/pushed back by a protester. Looks to me like the police were standing around and not actively trying to leave.


walk around protesters. step over protesters (if a protester then tried to grab an officer who was leaving, then use spray, but don't spray first).
The action taken was NOT the proper one, or else the cops wouldn't have been placed on leave.


So, the police were walking peacefully down the street? Or were they cutting open tents and cuffing and stuffing folks who felt they were well within their constitutional rights to be protesting as they were...
If the gang that encircled me was full of girls, professors and college kids who then sat down in front of me while I was in full riot gear and packing weapons, I don't think I would quiver in fear from their taunts. Not to mention full riot gear worn by all my pals who are with me as well...
I certainly wouldn't have been able to spray severe pain point blank range into the faces of unarmed non-violent protesters


The fact the the school has backpedaled and is now saying the actions police took were not appropriate ads weight to the argument that the cops were heavy handed in their actions against the protesters.

1 From what I've read they were trying to leave with people they had arrested and the protesters were attempting to prevent them from doing so by getting in front of them and locking their arms. They "looked like they were standing around" because of the protesters blocking their exit.

2. the video seems to show the protesters had formed a circle around them. Again, stepping over them seems to have been ruled out probably for the safety of themselves and those already in custody

3 they were attempting to peacefully leave the area after doing their job. It may be seen as heavy handed but I doubt they did anything "illegal" Although the guy that sprays down the protesters on the side may be the exception, I see no need for them spraying more than the ones directly in their path.

[Joker]

My understanding is that pepper spray is merely an irritant that washes away rather quickly as opposed to tear gas. I haven't seen anything about lasting injuries or hospitalization

[Joker]

So they injured others in order to protect themselves from a possibility of injury? Wow what pussies. Protect who? The public not themselves. If they did not want to risk injury to serve and protect they should not be cops.

You can bet your ass if one of those arrested had fallen down stepping over the protesters there'd be lawsuits filed

[Joker]

what are you talking about?

They could've stepped over the students and walked away.

I hate to result to name calling Joker, but you really are making yourself look like a fucking idiot.

And I've explained numerous times the reasons they may have had for not stepping over them.

I'm sorry that your not being open to another PoV makes me look like a fucking idiot

[Julius]

Joker, I hear there's a paperback edition.

[DancingBearly]

My understanding is that pepper spray is merely an irritant that washes away rather quickly as opposed to tear gas. I haven't seen anything about lasting injuries or hospitalization

My wife is allergic. She ended up in the hospital just cutting up hot peppers. So your understanding is flawed.

[DancingBearly]

You can bet your ass if one of those arrested had fallen down stepping over the protesters there'd be lawsuits filed

And you think by spraying pepper spay they prevented lawsuits?

[Joker]

My wife is allergic. She ended up in the hospital just cutting up hot peppers. So your understanding is flawed.

I think my understanding is correct but there may be are cases where it could cause more harm.

Which is probably why they let them know ahead of time that they would be sprayed with it if they didn't move

[Joker]

And you think by spraying pepper spay they prevented lawsuits?

I didn't say that did I?

They'd be far more likely to be found guilty of wrongdoing if they forced someone under arrest to attempt to climb over others while cuffed and they got hurt than they will be of using the spray