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Naomi Wolf on OWS: The First Amendment, Obligation to Protest


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#51 Joker

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 04:29 PM

noone is blocking fire stations and pro-life groups already do that

Nobody is doing it yet. Would it be acceptable if it were to happen? Or if they were protesting by blocking the only entrance/exit to a tunnel?

Pro life groups have buffer areas they're not allowed to enter. Is it acceptable for them to crash the barriers? Is it their obligation to do so?

#52 vic

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 04:33 PM

Nobody is doing it yet. Would it be acceptable if it were to happen? Or if they were protesting by blocking the only entrance/exit to a tunnel?


you ignored my response to this already

hmmm, good point...i agree.

it would have taken the protesters about 30 minutes to walk across the bridge, or less to be made to turn back.

the cops shut down the bridge for about 8+ hours to make a jail cell out of it.


:dunno:

#53 Joker

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 04:50 PM

Any protest action can be labeled disruptive by it's opponents. By that logic, no protests would ever be allowed. And your "what if" is irrelevant, as no such actions have been carried out or even discussed, as far as we know.



Old news. They already have, and still do. It's been litigated and legislated. And that is an action against specific individuals (the patient and her care-giver), which, IMO, is a different animal. As far as I have seen, OWS is protesting situations, policies and issues for the most part. Only a few rogues have accosted individual bankers, and that has not been blessed by the overall movement. The so-called "right to lifers" can picket and protest their brains out on the national mall, outside congress, etc. But they prefer to threaten violence against, and block access to facilities by the individual patients and providers. That is not okay. So it's a false equivalency.

It's the author of the article who is saying we are obligated to disrupt.

Does it matter what your protesting? I wouldn't think it should matter. If one has the "right" to do it for their cause, all should have that same right.

What about the OWS protesters who threaten violence? What about the OWS protesters blocking traffic, entering establishments and disrupting businesses?

What makes one form of disruption acceptable and not another?

#54 TEO

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 04:51 PM

I've seen a few people on the news speak out against it.

But again I'm speaking more to her point that we're obligated to be disruptive


Yeah the "obligated" part is a rub. Shouldn't we first be obligated to live as good human beings? Yeah then we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with

#55 Joker

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 05:01 PM

hmmm, good point...i agree.

it would have taken the protesters about 30 minutes to walk across the bridge, or less to be made to turn back.

the cops shut down the bridge for about 8+ hours to make a jail cell out of it.

Sure it would have and the group would have turned around and left immediately, I can tell because they were so good at not going onto the bridge like they were told BEFORE they went right by the cops onto the bridge.

#56 vic

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 05:05 PM

again, 8+ hours vs. 30 minutes tops

who was more disruptive?

and most of your arguments here are strictly theoretical...no violence in 1+ month but you're still talking about people 'threatening violence':dunno:

#57 jg

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 05:27 PM

I don't know what any of this means but here are the standards:

(1) Ambient noise quality zone N-1: Ambient noise quality zone N-I shall consist of those low ; density residential areas RL presently designated as land-use zones R-I, R-2, and R-3.
(2) Ambient noise quality zone N-2: Ambient noise quality zone N-2 shall consist of those high density residential areas RH presently designated as land-use zones R-4, R-5, R-6, R-7, R-8, R-9, and R-10.
(3) Ambient noise quality zone N-3: Ambient noise quality zone N-3 shall consist of all commercial and industrial areas presently designated as land-use zones C-I, C-2, C-3, C-4, C-5, C-6, C-7, C-8, M-I, M-2, and M-3.


The park is zoned as a C5-5 (a highly dense Commercial District) http://www.nyc.gov/h...zone/map12b.pdf .
As you can see its legally on the high end for acceptable noise (N-3) similar to industrial areas.

#58 Joker

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 05:31 PM

You can say 30 minutes but you have nothing to support it. They were told not to go on it and they did, hell, they were chanting take the bridge. It would be foolish to even think they'd all just turn around and leave after going up there knowing they were subject to arrest. Chances are some would have tried to stir shit up if there was a way to do so and then sneak off. Closing down the bridge the way they did probably kept things as in control as it was because there wasn't people running back and forth looking for a way out and it kept those not on the bridge away with less chance of stirring up trouble and instigating others. That is something that could have turned things ugly while they were waiting for all the buses needed to transport.

I'd guess that once the bridge was closed and traffic was rerouted the amount of time needed to clear the bridge was pretty much irrelevant.

#59 vic

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 05:37 PM

You can say 30 minutes but you have nothing to support it. They were told not to go on it and they did, hell, they were chanting take the bridge. It would be foolish to even think they'd all just turn around and leave after going up there knowing they were subject to arrest. Chances are some would have tried to stir shit up if there was a way to do so and then sneak off. Closing down the bridge the way they did probably kept things as in control as it was because there wasn't people running back and forth looking for a way out and it kept those not on the bridge away with less chance of stirring up trouble and instigating others. That is something that could have turned things ugly while they were waiting for all the buses needed to transport.

I'd guess that once the bridge was closed and traffic was rerouted the amount of time needed to clear the bridge was pretty much irrelevant.



what i have to go on is i was there and it took less than 30 minutes to walk across the walkway. the protesters on the bridge were moving forward. what do you have to go on with your 'chances are' theories? they made 700+ arrests and took their sweet time doing so. also, still gotta wonder what happened in that gap of an unknown amount of time between the cop speaking on the megaphone and when the protesters started advancing with police seemingly gone from the front and out of the way of the protesters. also, there was no violence on the bridge from the protesters, even though they were penned in like animals. but you knew that already. i can't believe we're still on this topic as it's been nearly a month since that incident.

#60 vic

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 05:40 PM

and again, and again, and again...a lot more could have been done to prevent them from going onto the bridge...the cops knew they were approaching the bridge, and normally they would have done a better job directing traffic...the bridge could have been briefly close and rerouted before the protesters got to the walkway, but they weren't...so you could either call it a setup or poor management

#61 Joker

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 05:45 PM

I'm not trying to make an issue of the bridge incident other than to point out it was a disruption. The amount of time it was disrupted and whether or not people should have been arrested isn't as important as the fact that it WAS disrupted and therefore endangered others.

#62 TEO

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 05:48 PM

and again, and again, and again...a lot more could have been done to prevent them from going onto the bridge...the cops knew they were approaching the bridge, and normally they would have done a better job directing traffic...the bridge could have been briefly close and rerouted before the protesters got to the walkway, but they weren't...so you could either call it a setup or poor management


Either way protesters should take it as a lesson, be vary wary of being setup as well as aware of potential impacts of actions.

#63 Jwheelz

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 05:58 PM

I don't think Wolf is defending getting the Brooklyn bridge shut down. When she says disruption, she doesn't mean breaking laws unless they are unjust, as they were with segregation. She means disrupting the status quo, jarring people from their usual routine to make problems visible. People on the extremes already know how to disrupt in extreme ways, regardless of the consequences. She is talking to everyone else, people who feel strongly on various issues but believe the lie that the only acceptable way to be heard is once a year, anonymously, in November. The establishment wants people to think that noisy, visible protests are a blight on our society. And they are when face mask wearing anarchists smash windows or the Westboro Baptist Church protests dead soldiers' funerals. But when everyday citizens, parents, grandparents, teachers, soldiers, sons and daughters peacefully but firmly stand up for their beliefs, rattling cages, it's a beautiful and patriotic thing. No matter what they believe. The point is Democracy requires the participation of everyone, and that means more than just voting, it means demonstrating when you're not being heard.

Edit: Also, she was arrested last week for refusing to follow an unlawful order given by a police officer, she was legally permitted to stay where she was, different issue, but just a clarification.

#64 vic

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 05:59 PM

Either way protesters should take it as a lesson, be vary wary of being setup as well as aware of potential impacts of actions.


agreed, and i think OWS agrees w that statement as well

some people are just looking for every negative they can and taking the slim pickings and running with them

it's not working

public sentiment continues to grow

#65 vic

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 06:01 PM

I don't think Wolf is defending getting the Brooklyn bridge shut down. When she says disruption, she doesn't mean breaking laws unless they are unjust, as with segregation. She means disrupting the status quo, jarring people from their usual routine to make problems visible. People on the extremes already know how disrupt in extreme ways. She is talking to everyone else, people who feel strongly on various issues but believe the lie that the only acceptable way to be heard is once a year, anonymously, in November. The establishment wants people to think that noisy, visible protests are a blight on our society. And they are when face mask wearing anarchists smash windows or the Westboro Baptist Church protests dead soldiers' funerals. But when everyday citizens, parents, grandparents, teachers, soldiers, sons and daughters peacefully but firmly stand up for their beliefs, rattling cages, it's a beautiful and patriotic thing. No matter what they believe. The point is Democracy requires the participation of everyone, and that means more than just voting, it means demonstrating when you're not being heard.


this.

a shame it is how the people that have been saying everyone is 'asleep' about the issues ows is making public are the ones who are doubting this movement or complaining about its actions

#66 china cat

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 06:28 PM

this.

a shame it is how the people that have been saying everyone is 'asleep' about the issues ows is making public are the ones who are doubting this movement or complaining about its actions


exactly. you just can't win.

#67 TEO

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 06:33 PM

exactly. you just can't win.


I thought the spirit of the movement was that we can win?

Patience in sharing info, explaining, modifying approach so the target audience understands, keeping at it until all the light bulbs light up, no defeatist attitudes!

#68 china cat

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 06:45 PM

thanks, teo :smile:

there is a sense of frustration when everyone says we need change and then in the next breath critique those who seek to initiate change. Having said that, there is benefit to discussing/debating the manner in which change is sought.

#69 TEO

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 06:48 PM

:heart:

#70 vic

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 06:52 PM

thanks, teo :smile:

there is a sense of frustration when everyone says we need change and then in the next breath critique those who seek to initiate change. Having said that, there is benefit to discussing/debating the manner in which change is sought.


having as many people as there are engaging in debate is leaps and bounds forward from where we were not even 2 months ago

and in that simple respect, we are winning.

#71 china cat

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:58 AM

um....



#72 china cat

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:59 AM

please watch that

#73 vic

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 01:24 PM

please watch that


wow

#74 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 01:29 PM

Top bunk at camp fema brehs

#75 china cat

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 03:51 PM

it's all in place, dave

tin foil all you want peeps

#76 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 03:53 PM

As usual us silly conspiracy whackos are on the right track, even as we are laughed at. Im so surprised. :hmmm:

#77 TEO

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 04:07 PM

I don't think some people see that their are strings on the puppets.