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What is Occupy Wall Street?


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#101 concert andy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 11:55 AM

OK. Is the "interest" going toward the national debt? Is this a private enterprise for the American people or for itself? Waking up is hard, I understand....


Profits made on TARP were used for the national Debt. So I assume that interest made is going towards it, and if it is not, I assume it being used for other future transactions to protect the US people from inflation or the dollar losing more value.

You seem to think the Fed is the Dark Side.

The fed are like the police of the US currency. They are on your side, but sometimes you think they are not because of how they act, just like cops.

#102 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 12:45 PM

Lmao. Yeah, no. They are crooks that run the money supply.

#103 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 12:48 PM

Naive? Have fiat currencies worked in the past? Im not gonna run in this circle....it will end.

#104 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 12:49 PM

Im right about the fed, but im wrong.....ok....

#105 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 12:52 PM

15 trillion. In debt......i give up
People just dont want to see it....
Lets start another war...it is good for our economy.
..

#106 concert andy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 01:30 PM

15 trillion. In debt......i give up
People just dont want to see it....
Lets start another war...it is good for our economy.
..


Where your argument breaks down is that you focus on today, or the last 3 years. Whent here is almost a 100 years of track record to base my claims on, and you are worried about what will happen tomorrow.

Please provide a FIAT currency that has failed and I will tell you why it failed, and it was not because of OUR fed.

I think our fed has done a fantastic job.

Being in debt is not the fault of the fed, it is the fault of the Bush administration. When Clinton was president there was a surplus.

These are facts, not fear based worries.

#107 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 01:51 PM

Im right about the fed, but im wrong and they are doing a great job. You wont see it no matter how i show it to you. There is no reason to continue running in uour thought circle.

#108 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 01:51 PM

chine that the world has ever seen, and we have completely wrecked it.

Decades of incredibly foolish decisions have left us drowning in an ocean of corruption, greed and bad debt. Thousands of businesses and millions of jobs have left the country and poverty is exploding from coast to coast. We are literally becoming a joke to the rest of the world. It is absolutely imperative that we educate America about what is happening. Until the American people truly understand the problems that we are facing, they will not be willing to implement the solutions that are necessary.

The following are the top 100 statistics about the collapse of the economy that every American voter should know

#109 vic

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 01:56 PM

got a link to that mouthful you just posted, dave?:dunno:

#110 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 02:00 PM

Doh! Im trying to figure out how to do this from my phone. Go to jones site. Its linked from there. But dont worry, vic. The fed is doing a good job and all is well in our economy. Just ask andu. Lolz

#111 concert andy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 02:09 PM

[quote name='TakeAStepBack']chine that the world has ever seen, and we have completely wrecked it.

Decades of incredibly foolish decisions have left us drowning in an ocean of corruption, greed and bad debt. Thousands of businesses and millions of jobs have left the country and poverty is exploding from coast to coast. We are literally becoming a joke to the rest of the world. It is absolutely imperative that we educate America about what is happening. Until the American people truly understand the problems that we are facing, they will not be willing to implement the solutions that are necessary.[/QUOTE]


The following are the top 100 statistics about the collapse of the economy that every American voter should know….

[quote name='TakeAStepBack']
#100 A staggering 48.5% of all Americans live in a household that receives some form of government benefits. Back in 1983, that number was below 30 percent.
[/QUOTE]

This is why we are so far in debt. It is called boot strapping, something this country forgot about long ago and kept asking for hand outs.

We are entitled to this and that? No your not, get a job and pay some taxes bitch.

[quote name='TakeAStepBack']
#99 During the Obama administration, the U.S. government has accumulated more debt than it did from the time that George Washington took office to the time that Bill Clinton took office.
[/QUOTE]

Most of this is interest on the debt that Bush left him with.



[quote name='TakeAStepBack']
#98 Since Barack Obama was sworn in, the share of the national debt per household has increased by $35,835.
[/QUOTE]

So is it Obamas fault or the feds?


[quote name='TakeAStepBack']
#97 The U.S. national debt has been increasing by an average of more than 4 billion dollars per day since the beginning of the Obama administration.

[/QUOTE]


See 99.

[quote name='TakeAStepBack']

#96 It is being projected that the U.S. national debt will hit 344% of GDP by the year 2050 if we continue on our current course.
[/QUOTE]

That will not happen, we are already starting to cut the deficit, and when the unemployment gets back under 5% there will be more money in the tax coffers.

[quote name='TakeAStepBack']
#95 The Congressional Budget Office is projecting that U.S. government debt held by the public will reach a staggering 716 percent of GDP by the year 2080.
[/QUOTE]


I wont be alive so I do not care. But keep panicing.



[quote name='TakeAStepBack']

#94 In 2010, the U.S. government paid $413 billion in interest on the national debt. That is projected to at least double over the next decade.
[/QUOTE]

You want services from the government, someone has to pay for them.


[quote name='TakeAStepBack']
#93 According to one new survey, one out of every three Americanswould not be able to make a mortgage or rent payment next month if they suddenly lost their current job.
[/QUOTE]


Because they did not plan like you are told. Always have 6 months emergency money in your savings for a situation like this.



[quote name='TakeAStepBack']
#92 State and local government debt has reached an all-time high of 22 percent of U.S. GDP.[/QUOTE]

Want me to go on?



[quote name='TakeAStepBack']
#91 In 1980, government transfer payments accounted for just 11.7% of all income. Today, government transfer payments account for 18.4% of all income.

#90 U.S. households are now receiving more income from the U.S. governmentthan they are paying to the government in taxes.

#89 According to a new study conducted by the BlackRock Investment Institute, the ratio of household debt to personal income in the United States is now 154 percent.

#88 If you can believe it, one out of every seven Americans has at least 10 credit cards.

#87 According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, health care costs accounted for just 9.5% of all personal consumption back in 1980. Today they account for approximately 16.3%.

#86 The cost of a health insurance policy for the average American family rose by a whopping 9 percent last year, and according to a report put out by the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Health Research and Educational Trust, the average family health insurance policy now costs over $15,000 a year.

#85 One study found that approximately 41 percent of working age Americans either have medical bill problems or are currently paying off medical debt.

#84 An all-time record 49.9 million Americans do not have any health insurance at all at this point, and the percentage of Americans covered by employer-based health plans has fallen for 11 years in a row.

#83 According to a report published in The American Journal of Medicine, medical bills are a major factor in more than 60 percent of the personal bankruptcies in the United States. Of those bankruptcies that were caused by medical bills, approximately 75 percent of them involved individuals that actually did have health insurance.

#82 Average yearly tuition at U.S. private universities is now up to $27,293.

#81 The cost of college tuition in the United States has gone up by over 900 percent since 1978.

#80 In America today, approximately two-thirds of all college students graduate with student loans.

#79 In 2010, the average college graduate had accumulated approximately $25,000 in student loan debt by graduation day.

#78 The total amount of student loan debt in the United States now exceedsthe total amount of credit card debt in the United States.

#77 One-third of all college graduates end up taking jobs that don’t even require college degrees.

#76 In the United States today, there are more than 100,000 janitors that have college degrees.

#75 In the United States today, 317,000 waiters and waitresses have college degrees.

#74 In the United States today, approximately 365,000 cashiers have college degrees.

#73 It is being projected that for the first time ever, the OPEC nations are going to bring in over a trillion dollars from exporting oil this year. Their biggest customer is the United States.

#72 U.S. oil companies will bring in about $200 billion in pre-tax profits this year. They will also receive about $4.4 billion in specialized tax breaks from the U.S. government.

#71 The United States has had a negative trade balance every single yearsince 1976, and since that time the United States has run a total trade deficit of more than 7.5 trillion dollars with the rest of the world.

#70 The United States has lost an average of 50,000 manufacturing jobsper month since China joined the World Trade Organization in 2001.

#69 The U.S. trade deficit with China is now 27 times larger than it was back in 1990.

#68 Today, the United States spends more than 4 dollars on goods and services from China for every one dollar that China spends on goods and services from the United States.

#67 China has surpassed the United States and is now the largest PC market in the entire world.

#66 In 2002, the United States had a trade deficit in “advanced technology products” of $16 billion with the rest of the world. In 2010, that number skyrocketed to $82 billion.

#65 In 2010, the number one U.S. export to China was “scrap and trash”.

#64 Do you remember when the United States was the dominant manufacturer of automobiles and trucks on the globe? Well, in 2010 the U.S. ran a trade deficit in automobiles, trucks and parts of $110 billion.

#63 The United States has lost a staggering 32 percent of its manufacturing jobs since the year 2000.

#62 If you can believe it, more than 42,000 manufacturing facilities in the United States have been closed down since 2001.

#61 Between December 2000 and December 2010, 38 percent of the manufacturing jobs in Ohio were lost, 42 percent of the manufacturing jobs in North Carolina were lost and 48 percent of the manufacturing jobs in Michigan were lost.

#60 Back in 1970, 25 percent of all jobs in the United States were manufacturing jobs. Today, only 9 percent of the jobs in the United States are manufacturing jobs.

#59 According to Professor Alan Blinder of Princeton University, 40 millionmore U.S. jobs could be sent offshore over the next two decades.

#58 If you gathered together all of the workers that are “officially” unemployed in the United States today, they would constitute the 68th largest country in the world.

#57 There are fewer payroll jobs in the United States right now than there were back in 2000 even though we have added 30 million extra people to the population since then.

#56 Back in 1969, 95 percent of all men between the ages of 25 and 54 had a job. In July, only 81.2 percent of men in that age group had a job.

#55 Only 55.3% of all Americans between the ages of 18 and 29 were employed last year. That was the lowest level that we have seen since World War II.

#54 Today, there are 5.9 million Americans between the ages of 25 and 34 that are living with their parents.

#53 The economic downturn has been particularly tough on men. According to Census data, men are twice as likely to live with their parents as women are.

#52 According to one recent survey, only 14 percent of all Americans that are 28 or 29 years old are optimistic about their financial futures.

#51 Incredibly, less than 30 percent of all U.S. teens had a job this summer.

#50 According to one study, between 1969 and 2009 the median wages earned by American men between the ages of 30 and 50 dropped by 27 percent after you account for inflation.

#49 Since the year 2000, we have lost approximately 10% of our middle class jobs. In the year 2000 there were about 72 million middle class jobs in the United States but today there are only about 65 million middle class jobs.

#48 In 1980, 52 percent of all jobs in the United States were middle income jobs. Today, only 42 percent of all jobs are middle income jobs.

#47 Back in 1980, less than 30% of all jobs in the United States were low income jobs. Today, more than 40% of all jobs in the United States are low income jobs.

#46 According to Paul Osterman, a professor of economics at MIT, approximately 20 percent of all employed Americans are making $10.65 an hour or less.

#45 Half of all American workers now earn $505 or less per week.

#44 Since December 2007, median household income in the United States has declined by a total of 6.8% once you account for inflation.

#43 New home sales in the United States are now down 80% from the peak in July 2005.

#42 The all-time record for fewest number of new homes sold in the United States was broken in 2009. Then it was broken again in 2010. It is on pace to be broken once again in 2011.

#41 At one point this year, U.S. home prices had fallen a whopping 33% from where they were at during the peak of the housing bubble.

#40 U.S. home values have fallen approximately 6 trillion dollars since the housing crisis first began.

#39 According to the U.S. Census Bureau, 18 percent of all homes in the state of Florida are sitting vacant. That figure is 63 percent larger than it was just ten years ago.

#38 Historically, the percentage of residential mortgages in foreclosure in the United States has tended to hover between 1 and 1.5 percent. Today, it is up around 4.5 percent.

#37 According to the Mortgage Bankers Association, at least 8 million Americans are currently at least one month behind on their mortgage payments.

#36 According to a Harris Interactive survey taken near the end of last year, 77 percent of all Americans are now living paycheck to paycheck. In 2007, the same survey found that only 43 percent of Americans were living paycheck to paycheck.

#35 Starting on January 1st, 2011 the Baby Boomers began to hit retirement age. From now on, every single day more than 10,000 Baby Boomers willreach the age of 65. That is going to keep happening every single day for the next 19 years.

#34 According to a new poll by Americans for Secure Retirement, 88 percentof all Americans are worried about “maintaining a comfortable standard of living in retirement”. Last year, that figure was at 73 percent.

#33 One out of every six elderly Americans now lives below the federal poverty line.

#32 In 1950, each retiree’s Social Security benefit was paid for by 16U.S. workers. According to new data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, there are now only 1.75 full-time private sector workers for each person that is receiving Social Security benefits in the United States.

#31 According to the Congressional Budget Office, the Social Security systempaid out more in benefits than it received in payroll taxes in 2010. That was not supposed to happen until at least 2016.

#30 The U.S. government now says that the Medicare trust fund will run outfive years faster than they were projecting just last year.

#29 According to one study, the 50 U.S. state governments are collectively 3.2 trillion dollars short of what they need to meet their pension obligations.

#28 A different study has shown that individual Americans are $6.6 trillion short of what they need to retire comfortably.

#27 Between 1991 and 2007 the number of Americans between the ages of 65 and 74 that filed for bankruptcy rose by a staggering 178 percent.

#26 According to a shocking AARP survey of Baby Boomers that are still in the workforce, 40 percent of them plan to work “until they drop”.

#25 Last year, 2.6 million more Americans dropped into poverty. That was the largest increase that we have seen since the U.S. government began keeping statistics on this back in 1959.

#24 Back in the year 2000, 11.3% of all Americans were living in poverty. Today, 15.1% of all Americans are living in poverty.

#23 More than 50 million Americans are now on Medicaid. Back in 1965, only one out of every 50 Americans was on Medicaid. Today, approximately one out of every 6 Americans is on Medicaid.

#22 More than 45 million Americans are now on food stamps.

#21 The number of Americans on food stamps has increased 74% since 2007.

#20 Approximately one-third of the entire population of the state of Alabama is now on food stamps.

#19 Right now, one out of every four American children is on food stamps.

#18 It is being projected that approximately 50 percent of all U.S. children will be on food stamps at some point in their lives before they reach the age of 18.

#17 The poverty rate for children living in the United States increased to 22%in 2010.

#16 There are 314 counties in the United States where at least 30% of the children are facing food insecurity.

#15 In Washington D.C., the “child food insecurity rate” is 32.3%.

#14 More than 20 million U.S. children rely on school meal programs to keep from going hungry.

#13 It is estimated that up to half a million children may currently be homeless in the United States.

#12 The number of Americans that are going to food pantries and soup kitchens has increased by 46% since 2006.

#11 According to a recent report from the AFL-CIO, the average CEO made343 times more money than the average American did last year.

#10 The wealthiest 1% of all Americans now own more than a third of all the wealth in the United States.

#9 The poorest 50% of all Americans collectively own just 2.5% of all the wealth in the United States.

#8 The percentage of millionaires in Congress is more than 50 times higherthan the percentage of millionaires in the general population.

#7 According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 16.6 million Americans were self-employed back in December 2006. Today, that number has shrunk to 14.5 million.

#6 According to one recent poll, 90 percent of the American people believe that economic conditions in the United States are “poor”. To put this in perspective, only 11 percent of Americans rated economic conditions in the U.S. as “poor” back in January of 1999.

#5 According to another recent poll, 80 percent of the American people believe that we are actually in a recession right now.

#4 Our dollar is being systematically destroyed by the Federal Reserve. An item that cost $20.00 in 1970 will cost you $116.78 today. An item that cost $20.00 in 1913 will cost you $457.67 today.

#3 The Federal Reserve made $16.1 trillion in secret loans to their friends during the last financial crisis.

#2 The Federal Reserve is a perpetual debt machine. Today, the U.S. national debt is more than 4700 times larger than it was when the Federal Reserve was created back in 1913.



#1 According to a new CNN/ORC International Poll, 27 percent of all Americans have never even heard of Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke.


We need to educate America.

Please share this with as many people as you can. Time is running out for America, and 2012 is going to be an absolutely pivotal year in the history of this nation.

We are in the midst of a long-term economic decline that is rapidly accelerating. If dramatic changes are not made very quickly, we will soon witness a full-blown collapse of the economy.

Wake up as many people as you can.[/QUOTE]



Everything in this article is extrapolations, which are as acurate as me describing what you look like and we never met.


I can go down this list and give you a legit response to it all.





The debt is not cause by the FED. Did you read my responses?

The debt is caused by social programs, and running the goverment.

With Unemployment this high their is less money in the coffers.

So a solution the Occupy people want is if it is to big, let it fail.

Welll if thei would have been the case in 2008 and the government let Banks fail, and auto inustry to collapse, the unemployment rate would be almost 30%.

These protests would be about something else.

This is why I say these protests are naive. Be careful what you wish for.

#112 concert andy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 02:20 PM

Doh! Im trying to figure out how to do this from my phone. Go to jones site. Its linked from there. But dont worry, vic. The fed is doing a good job and all is well in our economy. Just ask andu. Lolz


That is not what I said.

The fed is different from the government.

What will it take for you to realize it is not the fed who put us in debt. The fed is doing everything it can to protect the economy.

The government i.e., Congress, are the ones who is spending all this money.

https://chart.google...,5&chl=Pensions 21%|Health Care 23%|Education 3%|Defense 25%|Welfare 13%|Protection 2%|Transportation 2%|General Government 1%|Other Spending 4%|Interest 5%&chtt=Federal Spending for United States - FY 2011
Source:
http://www.usgovernm...art_2011_US_fed

Please look at the attached chart.

Where is the debt created by the Fed?

The fed spends 25% on defense? 23% on health care (i.e., medicare), or the 21# spent on pensions of government officials?


You know your whole argument is off base. because of this simple fact.

Has the Fed done some shady stuff? Probably, but at the time they did it, I gaurentee you they thought it would help the US people.




Now stop banging on the fed, and go back to what the Occupy people want.

1. More government (congress) accountability.

2. CEO golden parchutes.

3. Let large corporations fail (even if it means the unemployment rate sky rockets and creates more problems).


PS. I saw signs that say where is my bail out? Read how 48% of americans are getting some kind of Government subsidy. That is your bail out.

#113 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 02:24 PM

Ive already successfully stated my case against the. It is unconstjtutional and it hurts. America. Sound money. Smaller govt. No more war.

#114 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 02:25 PM

Dont make guarantees you cant back up breh.

#115 vic

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 02:34 PM

i'm not savvy enough to get as far into detail as you guys...but...

We are entitled to this and that? No your not, get a job and pay some taxes bitch.


#77 One-third of all college graduates end up taking jobs that don

#116 vic

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 02:39 PM

#69 The U.S. trade deficit with China is now 27 times larger than it was back in 1990.

#68 Today, the United States spends more than 4 dollars on goods and services from China for every one dollar that China spends on goods and services from the United States.

#67 China has surpassed the United States and is now the largest PC market in the entire world.

#66 In 2002, the United States had a trade deficit in “advanced technology products” of $16 billion with the rest of the world. In 2010, that number skyrocketed to $82 billion.

#65 In 2010, the number one U.S. export to China was “scrap and trash”.

#64 Do you remember when the United States was the dominant manufacturer of automobiles and trucks on the globe? Well, in 2010 the U.S. ran a trade deficit in automobiles, trucks and parts of $110 billion.

#63 The United States has lost a staggering 32 percent of its manufacturing jobs since the year 2000.

#62 If you can believe it, more than 42,000 manufacturing facilities in the United States have been closed down since 2001.



i'm truly puzzled as to who and why and how it was was thought that this would benefit us...this is probably the biggest problem of all in this country and why i think outsourcing american jobs should have been banned a long time ago

#117 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 02:46 PM

I supppose the man that predicted the housing crash and also predicts the dollar collapse is naiv too.



#118 seany

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 03:09 PM

I skimmed that video. Sorry - you lost me at Grover Norquist and overwhelming christian rhetoric.

Just who in the video predicted the housing collapse? Whoever it was, they weren't unique. Lots of economists had warned of that.

#119 vic

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 03:10 PM

#45 Half of all American workers now earn $505 or less per week.

yeah, that would be nice:rolleyes:

#120 concert andy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 03:12 PM

[quote name='vic']i'm not savvy enough to get as far into detail as you guys...but...



#77 One-third of all college graduates end up taking jobs that don

#121 concert andy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 03:24 PM

Ive already successfully stated my case against the. It is unconstjtutional and it hurts. America. Sound money. Smaller govt. No more war.


You have not addressed the fact that the Fed is not the cause of the National Debt. The fact is it is the US government spending money it does not have.

The fed has to react to us being so far in debt and take drastic actions to protect US citizens and economy.

What is there not to understand?

I have laid it out three times now, even with a pie chart to show you the actual spending of the US government which exceeds the actual amount of money they have to spend because of high unemployment.

Stop being reactionary to the last 3 years and look at the whole picture.

Stop drinking the its the Feds fault kool aid when it is actually the elected officials who ultimately appoint the head of the fed.

#122 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 03:26 PM



#123 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 03:28 PM

I skimmed that video. Sorry - you lost me at Grover Norquist and overwhelming christian rhetoric.

Just who in the video predicted the housing collapse? Whoever it was, they weren't unique. Lots of economists had warned of that.

Ron paul predicted it in 2003. It isnt in the vid. That vid is old but shows how long weve been living beyond our means.

#124 concert andy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 03:28 PM

#45 Half of all American workers now earn $505 or less per week.

yeah, that would be nice:rolleyes:


I mentioned this earlier, but uneduacated people their unemployment rate is almost or above 20%. While educated people rate is under 5%.

Yes there may be some people working jobs that they did not go to school for, but that is why I decided to get a major in Math and accounting as a minor, and currently going to grad school for my MS in computer science.

Guarentee me that I have a marketable skill well past my prime working days and make me an old guy that can still work and get paid. I am taking care of me.

My biggest problem with Occupy is the lack of direction, lack of message, and many things they are railing against, on the back side they get government money somehow with out evening knowing it in some cases.

I am a democrat but I have listened to Rush L. Yes he is a gas bag, but the basis of everything he talks about is the funding of social programs and how the country is going broke because of them.

See the 48% getting government money. Otherthan that point I disagree with him in general.

#125 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 03:30 PM

The fed keeps rates artificially low. It isnt the job of govt to provide our safety and silly entitlements. Sound money. Uphold the law.

#126 concert andy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 03:30 PM

Ron paul predicted it in 2003. It isnt in the vid. That vid is old but shows how long weve been living beyond our means.


So what he predicted the collapse of the housing market.

What does this have to do with

1. the national debt?

2. The fed.

3. How the fed and the debt are connected (when clearly they are not).



You keep saying it is, but have shown nothing to support this, and I have have provided countless examples, and now a chart.

Posted Image

#127 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 03:39 PM

THEY PRINT THE MONEY. THEY RUIN THE CURRENCY AND THAT HURTS AMERICA. IT IS U CONSTITUTIONAL AND THIS IS THE ROAD TO SERFDOM.

#128 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 03:40 PM

Rewatch all the videos in hete and maybe you will catch on. Maybe.

#129 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 03:41 PM

Im done here. No more circles for me.

#130 concert andy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 03:54 PM

THEY PRINT THE MONEY. THEY RUIN THE CURRENCY AND THAT HURTS AMERICA. IT IS U CONSTITUTIONAL AND THIS IS THE ROAD TO SERFDOM.


They do not print money with out Congress approval. Please provide one instance where they printed money without government approval.

Your example was the US sending money to New Zealand. That was not newly printed money, it was money on hand.

The Fed used money in the vault/bank/whatever to help eleviate pressure to the US economy.

You may be done, but just note. I won this discusion for a few reasons.

1. Your responses have been countered in every response with real numbers and facts.

2. You have provided nothing to support your claim that the Fed prints money at their own whim.

3. You gave up.

4. Ron Paul is a smart man, but he will never be elected president. I would vote for him, but he does not have enough charm.

See last 4 of 5 presidents had the charm (reagan, Clinton, Bush Obama) Bush's dad did not have that charm nor did the presidents before Reagan except Kennedy. Before that I am not old enough to really remember.

#131 concert andy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 03:56 PM

PS. This was a fun debate. Circles are part of debating. You have your point I have mine. Until you show me evidence that the Fed is printing money without congress approval every point you made is nonsense.

You said they are unconsitutional because it is not in the constitution, well neither are the some 40+ amendments made to the constituion. That is why that is in place, to amend something from 200+ years ago to make it relevant to todays times and problems.

#132 u.s.blues

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 04:39 PM

I wont be alive so I do not care. But keep panicing.


Because they did not plan like you are told. Always have 6 months emergency money in your savings for a situation like this.



wow, please tell me you do not mean these things. you really don't care about the people of the future..? do you really think everyone has the ability to save 6 months emergency money...even if i could save a hundred dollars a month(which i cannot) it would take me 8.5 years to save 6 months emergency money. i cannot express acurately with words how i feel about these two statements without getting banned from the boards...

#133 concert andy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 04:45 PM

wow, please tell me you do not mean these things. you really don't care about the people of the future..? do you really think everyone has the ability to save 6 months emergency money...even if i could save a hundred dollars a month(which i cannot) it would take me 8.5 years to save 6 months emergency money. i cannot express acurately with words how i feel about these two statements without getting banned from the boards...


No and No.

This was a long list of things. But that response was for 2080. 70 years from now. That is the extrapolation part of the argument.

As a person who uses statistical analysis daily, extrapolation of data is 100% of the time wrong, because it does not take into accoutn real world actions, or decisions.

So I said I do not care because it is not a true statement.

As for the 6 months point. That goes back to TASB stating that no one tells people to save. And yes they do not now, but back in the day this was standard.

Today we can not affort to save 6% every pay check because if we did one the economy would suffer for missing that money.

But in truth that is the desired savings monthly. Please read the entire thread and not cherry pick out of context comments.

#134 u.s.blues

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 04:46 PM

PS. I saw signs that say where is my bail out? Read how 48% of americans are getting some kind of Government subsidy. That is your bail out.


cool beans but what about he other 52%

#135 u.s.blues

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 04:48 PM

No and No.

This was a long list of things. But that response was for 2080. 70 years from now. That is the extrapolation part of the argument.

As a person who uses statistical analysis daily, extrapolation of data is 100% of the time wrong, because it does not take into accoutn real world actions, or decisions.

So I said I do not care because it is not a true statement.

As for the 6 months point. That goes back to TASB stating that no one tells people to save. And yes they do not now, but back in the day this was standard.

Today we can not affort to save 6% every pay check because if we did one the economy would suffer for missing that money.

But in truth that is the desired savings monthly. Please read the entire thread and not cherry pick out of context comments.


i have read the whole thread, and i do agree with some of your points...

#136 concert andy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 05:38 PM

i have read the whole thread, and i do agree with some of your points...


Thank you. I try and present my case with facts. I may not 100% agree with the facts, but that is what they are. Changes to the system are needed? Absolutely.

A lot of the thread got high jacked about the Fed and the US national debt.

I am a democrat. But many of the things I have noticed about Occupy is the things they mention on some of their signs lean towards Socialism/communsm in the sense that they want every one to be paid the same rate no matter the job. That is communism 101 and why it failed.


The extremes are all that is being referenced, the subtlties are being missed and glossed over.


Because a doctor was geting paid the same as a garbage man (completely generalized BTW).

And while they have some valids points, it gets lost in the scope and direction of the movement.

Although, I was curious to hear what you would have said if you I did believe that statement. :funny1:

Again, I praise the noble efforts, but direction and substance will go a lot further than NYC arrests.

#137 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 06:10 PM

The federal reserve charter ALLOWED the private banks to deploy paper money. Read the federal reserve act. This began the process of elastic currency and the inevitable fall to where we are now with all of the excess printing and spending of money.

I have proven this throughout this thread with links to videos amass. You keep saying the the fed has nothing to do with debt and that they have to follow congressional orders. Then I prove that the federal reserve doesnt answer to govt. and you concur. The videos on page 2 prove that.

You can believe you "won" this debate all you want. I wasn't in it to "win". What i was interested in was hearing a real rebuttal to the FACT that the federal reserve banking cartel is responsible for providing the ability for excessive spending and complete debasing of our currency which they secretly control. You concurred with me, told me I'm wrong and then asked me to jump back through the fruit loop.

You may have had fun, Andy, but you obviously didnt learn a thing and you will continue to believe the federal reserve that is ruining our currency with the addicts in congress, are "doing a great job."

In closing, you agreed with me on the fed and then told me Im wrong and naive to believe our dollar could ever fail.

You want me to provide the secrets the fed has inorder to believe they are compromised and arent working to fix shit. I brought Paul into it because NONE of the federal economists could EVER have forseen the housing crash, yet Paul did. Yet you want the fed to continue to steer our economy through planning. Disasterous planning at that.

You win Andy. You win.

#138 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 06:22 PM

And the missing half billion that came up missing...oh, it prolly found its way back somehow....the 9 trillion in secret loans? We prolly got some...prolly.

#139 concert andy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 06:23 PM

The federal reserve charter ALLOWED the private banks to deploy paper money. Read the federal reserve act. This began the process of elastic currency and the inevitable fall to where we are now with all of the excess printing and spending of money.

I have proven this throughout this thread with links to videos amass. You keep saying the the fed has nothing to do with debt and that they have to follow congressional orders. Then I prove that the federal reserve doesnt answer to govt. and you concur. The videos on page 2 prove that.

You can believe you "won" this debate all you want. I wasn't in it to "win". What i was interested in was hearing a real rebuttal to the FACT that the federal reserve banking cartel is responsible for providing the ability for excessive spending and complete debasing of our currency which they secretly control. You concurred with me, told me I'm wrong and then asked me to jump back through the fruit loop.

You may have had fun, Andy, but you obviously didnt learn a thing and you will continue to believe the federal reserve that is ruining our currency with the addicts in congress, are "doing a great job."

In closing, you agreed with me on the fed and then told me Im wrong and naive to believe our dollar could ever fail.

You want me to provide the secrets the fed has inorder to believe they are compromised and arent working to fix shit. I brought Paul into it because NONE of the federal economists could EVER have forseen the housing crash, yet Paul did. Yet you want the fed to continue to steer our economy through planning. Disasterous planning at that.

You win Andy. You win.



You connect two dots that are disjointed. They do not link together.

Yes they do not answer to the government on their day to day issues.

But they can not just print money. Here is where you lose me.

Again it is not the fed who is ruining our currency it is the US government.

No videos support printing of money by the fed, all they do is question the fed on the transfers of money from their coffers.

I put in the point that I won, to draw you back into the debate.

I did learn something, the fed can move money around the globe to protect the US citizens with out approval of US congress.

But again, there is no evidence that Fed prints money at will. Once you show me even ONE example of the FED PRINTING MONEY WITH OUT CONGRESS APPROVAL, may be I will change my tune until then I have matched you point for point (and that is what I find fun not winning).


During the 2000's the US government voted to print money almost twice a year to "support the troops". It was a veiled way to increase money in the system, and now Obama gets blamed for it.

Obama has not done much to help his cause but he was dealt a bad hand.

#140 concert andy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 06:27 PM

And the missing half billion that came up missing...oh, it prolly found its way back somehow....the 9 trillion in secret loans? We prolly got some...prolly.


They are not secret? because there is a paper trail. Implying the Fed is more transparent than you give them credit for.

This is part of spreading money around the globe to help banks that do not have enough in deposits to help stabalize the economy and the US dollar, and in the end we make interest on that money which does go towards debt elimination.

You are stuck on the Fed being the problem, when it is the US congress to blame for not taking the RON PAUL stand.

I get Ron Paul emails almost every day so i am aware of his positions.

You seem to think I am not on your team, but because you can not match me point for point you said I quit argueing because I do not understand.

BUT I DO UNDERSTAND, it seems you have a misinformed opinion.

#141 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 06:39 PM

Paper money is the problem. The constitution said no palper money. It is treason because THIS ise wjere it leads. Without the ability to create currency out of thin air, most of these terrible policies would end. Honest money keeps policies rrgarding spending in check.

That is why the fed must end. Sound money not paper from a private enterprise with central eco planning

#142 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 06:40 PM

Its a disaster. And the dollar will fail as predicted

#143 concert andy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:02 PM

Its a disaster. And the dollar will fail as predicted


I will take that wager. May be we should bet a $1 on it.

#144 concert andy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:06 PM

Paper money is the problem. The constitution said no palper money. It is treason because THIS ise wjere it leads. Without the ability to create currency out of thin air, most of these terrible policies would end. Honest money keeps policies rrgarding spending in check.

That is why the fed must end. Sound money not paper from a private enterprise with central eco planning


Paper money is an issue not a problem.

Ending the fed will not do away with paper money or money not backed by gold.

Are you aware that no currency in the world is back by gold?

Again this is where your argument falls apart. You say this is a US problem, but it is a global problem because only 1 country is partially backed by gold.

This is why the fed helps stabalize other banks because one we have enough money to do help, and two it helps US citizens in the exchange rate glabally. Leading to more jobs long term. It is called MACRO economics. May be you should read up on this instead of watching propganda videos. Ok that was a cheap shot, but I think these videos are warping reality.



Can you name the only currency in the world that is not at least partially backed by gold?

#145 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:11 PM

Back through the fruit loop agin? Nah.

Youre right breh the fiat money is a good thing....

#146 concert andy

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:32 PM

Back through the fruit loop agin? Nah.

Youre right breh the fiat money is a good thing....


You will not answer my question about what currency is back by gold?

You seem to gloss over the fact that Every currency in the world is FIAT money (guess that is what you call non gold based currency), not just the US currency.

BTW gold is only given a value because we used to think it was valuable, ultimately it is just a piece of rock. So you keep worshiping a rock based currency world.


I never said it was a good thing or a bad thing, I just stated that you are drinking the propoganda of currency and how bad the fed is.


I want you to tell me the following.

1. How the US will be better with out the Fed?

2. What will the currency be after the Fed is gone?

3. Give me some solutions to these problems and then we can have a legit conversation, instead of you just stating half truths and expecting me to accept it.

4. I mentioned that I am well versed in this subject hence me asking for specific examples, not conclusion from half based questions like what did the fed do with this transaction?

5. Use example prior to 2008, because every thing done by the fed and US government has been to stabalize the economy so that unemployment does not get above 10%. If they did not, the rate would be almost 30% then we would all be in real trouble. Not this made up fear of what the Fed is doing to the US.


And, the video I watched of Bernake about the moving of money to New Zealand. He answered every question calmly and thoughtfully. I am one that thinks Greenspan and Bernake are very smart men, and understand the ground situation better than you and I will ever understand.

You seem to think the Fed is a conspiracy theory, and because I just dont see it, I some how do not understand.

This is why i say, match me point for point, that is a true debate.

Not this, "you just dont understand, man" nonsense.

Make me understand. Show me examples. Show me track records. Show me your truth, and may be some of what I have stated in this thread will be rethought.

Until then, I see this as a ghost hunter trying to convince me there is a ghost in the house. I do not believe.

I put it on you to make me believe, which you have not even got me to consider what your points as valid in anyway.

I ask for facts. Not two points that are completely disjointed and some how put them together and walla it is magic.

#147 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:38 PM

I didnt attempt to make a believer out of you. I point out the fed as being what it is an the fiat currency is a large portion of our eco prob..if not all of it. There is tons of info in this thread regarding that. No fiat has ever lasted in history and the predictions from good economists are in. If you think the system is great and is good for oir country, i am not going to try and change your. Mind.

#148 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:40 PM

Im going to pay attention to those who keep predicting the outcomes accurately. You can believe bernanke.

#149 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:42 PM

And im not a globalist so other economies who are drinking tbe fed kool aid were never part of the discussion.

#150 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:45 PM

I guess ron paul os a ghost hunter too....