I imagine they'll be conducting investigations to determine what happened when this is over. They'd be chasing their tails if they started to respond to every youtube video posted while the event is still going on.what would be wrong and where is the proof? not even a statement saying otherwise. just your assumption. lets at least hear it from them that this is what happened. theyve had 3 days to issue a statement.
1 votes
Occupy Wall St.
Started by
vic
, Sep 22 2011 05:18 PM
2438 replies to this topic
#301
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- VibeTribe
- 10,261 posts
Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:06 PM
#302
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- VibeTribe
- 4,913 posts
Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:10 PM
I imagine they'll be conducting investigations to determine what happened when this is over. They'd be chasing their tails if they started to respond to every youtube video posted while the event is still going on.
well then they are doing a terrible PR job and you can't deny that...they haven't even suggested what you have...even saying 'some' of the arrests were justified by prior video evidence might help...their silence just shows arrogance
#304
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- VibeTribe
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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:13 PM
Nor are they confirming they did it.They are not denying they did it. They can't. They will also get away with it and countless other acts of senseless attacks on these peaceful folks. This is pure bullshit. Hard to believe that some of you could think otherwise!
It's just as hard to believe some of you can actually think every one of those protesters are peaceful and obeying all the laws.
I guess nowadays it's all about pronouncing "your side" right and blameless while pinning everything on the other side without actually knowing all the facts.
#305
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- VibeTribe
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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:15 PM
Nor are they confirming they did it.
It's just as hard to believe some of you can actually think every one of those protesters are peaceful and obeying all the laws.
I guess nowadays it's all about pronouncing "your side" right and blameless while pinning everything on the other side without actually knowing all the facts.
9/11/2001 - they the United States population made the ultimate "jump to conclusions" mat.
#307
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- VibeTribe
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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:24 PM
It's just as hard to believe some of you can actually think every one of those protesters are peaceful and obeying all the laws.
if there were instances of violence from the protesters, you can bet your ass the media would be all over it...show me something...until then, i'll have to go with yes they are
#309
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- VibeTribe
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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:46 PM
They aren't though. You have to understand the complexity and amount of laws in the city of NY. Laws are being broken. Bet on it. Laws broken that deserve brutality?
That is another story all together.
not saying what you're saying isn't true, but please explain
#310
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- VibeTribe
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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:58 PM
I'm saying that blocking traffic, j-walking and an assortment of other "laws" makes it almost impossible to not break them in the first place. When you group that many people together in a small space, without a permit no less, you are going to have people breaking the laws.
That does not mean I condone police brutality or even bothering to fully enforce (vs. simply protect) laws that are trivial in the state of a mass protest (like street blockage. They could easily reroute traffic if they chose, it is done all the time for lesser things). But to think this many people can descend upon a confined space like that park and NOT have people out of line and end up in the clink, is short sighted at best.
For the eleventeenth billionth time, the message at this venue is out of context and isn't going to produce the desired response that the 99% are looking for. It's just plain old logistics. I support their efforts completely beyond that personal belief and summary.
They should all have organized to take part in the October 6th shutdown on Pennsyltucky Ave.
That does not mean I condone police brutality or even bothering to fully enforce (vs. simply protect) laws that are trivial in the state of a mass protest (like street blockage. They could easily reroute traffic if they chose, it is done all the time for lesser things). But to think this many people can descend upon a confined space like that park and NOT have people out of line and end up in the clink, is short sighted at best.
For the eleventeenth billionth time, the message at this venue is out of context and isn't going to produce the desired response that the 99% are looking for. It's just plain old logistics. I support their efforts completely beyond that personal belief and summary.
They should all have organized to take part in the October 6th shutdown on Pennsyltucky Ave.
#311
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- VibeTribe
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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:02 PM
Again, did I say anything about violence from protesters or did I say there were laws being broken? As for the laws being broken there appears to be a few different ones they've been arresting people forif there were instances of violence from the protesters, you can bet your ass the media would be all over it...show me something...until then, i'll have to go with yes they are
80 'Occupy Wall Street' Protesters Arrested
Dozens of demonstrators who have vowed to "occupy" Wall Street were arrested Saturday on the seventh day of a social media-fueled protest against U.S. banking institutions, according to protest organizers.
Patrick Bruner, a spokesman for the protest group that doesn't have an official name but has often been referred to as "Occupy Wall Street," said that their monitors have recorded at least 85 arrests being made on Saturday, most in the Union Square area.
There were approximately 80 arrests, mainly for disorderly conduct by individuals who blocked vehicular and pedestrian traffic, but also for resisting arrest, obstructing governmental administration and, in one instance, for assault on a police officer, said NYPD spokesman Paul Browne.
More
http://online.wsj.co...4076524234.html
#312
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- VibeTribe
- 5,233 posts
- LocationNutmeg State
Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:10 PM
I'm not going to wade into the discussion about the overall situation since I haven't been there firsthand, but from this video it's pretty clear that the pepper spray incident was unprovoked. It came without any warning, and the people that were sprayed were literally just standing there, they had been speaking out loud while another person was being arrested, but, you know, they have a right to do that. After that someone asked a police officer where they were supposed to go and then out of nowhere the officer pulled his pepper spray and started spraying indiscriminately, if you look carefully you can even see what looks like one of the other officers in blue wiping his eye because he received some pepper spray.
The women are screaming probably because if you've never been pepper sprayed before I understand it hurts like hell. And they're also yelling for someone to give them water.
I'm not going to deny that there are probably people breaking all sorts of laws on both sides of the conflicts that are happening, but it's not fair to assume that there's always a justification for every single police action. It's also not fair to assume that every single police action is unjustified. There's a lot of nuance and I think it's really hard to judge unless you're an eyewitness to a particular incident.. having multiple people filming is very helpful though, and from a perspective of trying to get people talking, it's not as important what actually happened but what it looks like happened.
#315
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- VibeTribe
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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:21 PM
I'm saying that blocking traffic, j-walking and an assortment of other "laws" makes it almost impossible to not break them in the first place. When you group that many people together in a small space, without a permit no less, you are going to have people breaking the laws.
That does not mean I condone police brutality or even bothering to fully enforce (vs. simply protect) laws that are trivial in the state of a mass protest (like street blockage. They could easily reroute traffic if they chose, it is done all the time for lesser things). But to think this many people can descend upon a confined space like that park and NOT have people out of line and end up in the clink, is short sighted at best.
the streets should have been blocked off then, as you seem to state...from the looks of it the cops are not keeping the peace, as is their jobs...for one these nets they're using are a joke and they could easily have used wooden or metal barricades...the protesters have been there for 8 days so they had plenty of time to prepare for saturday
#317
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- VibeTribe
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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:28 PM
This is also good for business, vic. You seem to believe that the police are really there to keep the peace. We both know that is just a facade.
duh...keeping the peace is not attacking protesters the way they are...it is closer to inciting a riot...the protesters should be given nothing but credit for keeping it non-violent on their end
#318
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- VibeTribe
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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:30 PM
While you see it as unprovoked and indiscriminate it appears it was directed at the group that included the girl in the gray tank top, who moments before had been interfering with the officers (as opposed to literally just standing there) who were trying to take the girl dressed in black (who seemed to be pulling on the orange barricade net in an attempt to disrupt the police actions) into custody.I'm not going to wade into the discussion about the overall situation since I haven't been there firsthand, but from this video it's pretty clear that the pepper spray incident was unprovoked. It came without any warning, and the people that were sprayed were literally just standing there, they had been speaking out loud while another person was being arrested, but, you know, they have a right to do that. After that someone asked a police officer where they were supposed to go and then out of nowhere the officer pulled his pepper spray and started spraying indiscriminately, if you look carefully you can even see what looks like one of the other officers in blue wiping his eye because he received some pepper spray.
The women are screaming probably because if you've never been pepper sprayed before I understand it hurts like hell. And they're also yelling for someone to give them water.
I'm not going to deny that there are probably people breaking all sorts of laws on both sides of the conflicts that are happening, but it's not fair to assume that there's always a justification for every single police action. It's also not fair to assume that every single police action is unjustified. There's a lot of nuance and I think it's really hard to judge unless you're an eyewitness to a particular incident.. having multiple people filming is very helpful though, and from a perspective of trying to get people talking, it's not as important what actually happened but what it looks like happened.
As I've said already I don't doubt for a second there are cops that are acting wrong and this may be one of those instances but nothing is crystal clear at this point
#319
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- VibeTribe
- 16,773 posts
Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:37 PM
duh...keeping the peace is not attacking protesters the way they are...it is closer to inciting a riot...the protesters should be given nothing but credit for keeping it non-violent on their end
Bro, you need to stop preaching to the choir and be combatative to those who are on your side. The media wont even cover this in any real sense. Like I said, you're under the impression that keeping the peace is their goal. Their goal is in protecting their assets.
#320
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- VibeTribe
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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:39 PM
the pepper spray incident is clearly unprovoked and you are putting your own spin on it at this point...this was not a cop that was standing there and felt that it wa neccessary to subdue someone...he CLEARLY is standing a good 20 feet away and then CLEARLY runs over and sprays it indiscriminately into the crowd and CLEARLY sneaks away immediately...you're making quite the stretch for this guy and i don't understand why
i will agree that it isn't as clear cut with the woman that was dragged, although the force they used is quite excessve obviously...it's very unclear whether or not she provoked it any other way than verbally, which would be not at all...you are allowed to yell at officers unless that's one of those complex nyc laws i don't know about
i will agree that it isn't as clear cut with the woman that was dragged, although the force they used is quite excessve obviously...it's very unclear whether or not she provoked it any other way than verbally, which would be not at all...you are allowed to yell at officers unless that's one of those complex nyc laws i don't know about
#321
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- VibeGuide
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- 15,901 posts
VibeGuide
Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:40 PM
What does "social media fueled protest" mean, a bunch got together based on social media postings rather than a well thought out and organized protest?
Seriously wondering as TASB's assessment did not make the onsite seem well organized with recognized good leadership.
Seriously wondering as TASB's assessment did not make the onsite seem well organized with recognized good leadership.
#322
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- VibeTribe
- 4,913 posts
Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:40 PM
Bro, you need to stop preaching to the choir and be combatative to those who are on your side. The media wont even cover this in any real sense. Like I said, you're under the impression that keeping the peace is their goal. Their goal is in protecting their assets.
i'm not being combatative...i'm agreeing with you with a tint of sarcasm:dunno:
i'm not saying what their goal is, only what their job is
#325
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- VibeTribe
- 4,913 posts
Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:50 PM
What does "social media fueled protest" mean, a bunch got together based on social media postings rather than a well thought out and organized protest?
Seriously wondering as TASB's assessment did not make the onsite seem well organized with recognized good leadership.
the goal seems pretty obvious to me...end the rich's influence in washington and taking it to the heart of where these billionaire crooks are
and they also seem to be way more organized (they could do better than they are, but...) than they're being given credit. they are organized enough to not be violent, and they vote as a group on what actions to take and they are helping to feed each other and even doing a live feed of the entire protest...seems like some pretty good steps toward being organized to me...the difference is that this is not a one day demonstration, so it looks a little different and mayhaps somewhat stretched thin at times, but unlike a one day go, not everyone is going to stand in formation somewhere
what they could use is a stage for speakers to speak, but i doubt they'd be granted that at this time...the "leaders" are starting to pop up...chomsky stands in solidarity with them, michael moore has shown up, immortal technique has shown up, chris engles has shown up, keith olberman is hosting some of the protesters on his show
some of what you read from people you would think they can't find their own 2 feet in front of them
it's gonna be slow on weekdays...be patient and give em a chance here...nobody expected it to last this long but here we are...
#328
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- VibeTribe
- 10,261 posts
Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:53 PM
The guy that sprayed them appears to be in the wrong. Again we don't know what happened before the video (Did she throw something at the cops? Did she threaten anyone?) so it is at least possible there's a reason for what he did.the pepper spray incident is clearly unprovoked and you are putting your own spin on it at this point...this was not a cop that was standing there and felt that it wa neccessary to subdue someone...he CLEARLY is standing a good 20 feet away and then CLEARLY runs over and sprays it indiscriminately into the crowd and CLEARLY sneaks away immediately...you're making quite the stretch for this guy and i don't understand why
i will agree that it isn't as clear cut with the woman that was dragged, although the force they used is quite excessve obviously...it's very unclear whether or not she provoked it any other way than verbally, which would be not at all...you are allowed to yell at officers unless that's one of those complex nyc laws i don't know about
Why was the force excessive? They had to drag her away from the mob who were grabbing at them for their own protection. She's grabbing and pulling on the barricade (you can see her in Jwheels video) that alone constitutes interfering with the police who are trying to perform their job.
#329
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- VibeTribe
- 16,773 posts
Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:53 PM
What does "social media fueled protest" mean, a bunch got together based on social media postings rather than a well thought out and organized protest?
Seriously wondering as TASB's assessment did not make the onsite seem well organized with recognized good leadership.
Like with the "Arab spring", which was suposedly largely fueled by social media in getting out the message to attend, they are claiming the same here. They have demands, but the demands are largely nullified by the fact they are asking the parties working off existing legislation to change their affairs. While I agree with that sentiment, it is a bit misplaced, IMHO.
From what I gathered, it seems pretty unorganized. Of course, when it comes to civil disobediance, I generally look to the movements of the 60s. Those were well organized, very serious affairs. They knew their boundaries and where it was necessary to cross the line for their cause. It did not largely involve poking smot in a park outside stock exchange and a mesh of groups and folks who aren't even fully aware of what they are protesting.
Oct. 6th in Washington, folks.
#331
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- VibeTribe
- 4,913 posts
Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:57 PM
I'd say that the goal of 95% of those cops is protecting their asses and getting home safe to their families rather than beating up protesters.
And FTR non-violent protesters don't instigate confrontations with the police
keepers of the peace don't instigate confrontations with non-violent protesters
show me one video of a protester assaulting an officer
#332
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- VibeGuide
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- 15,901 posts
VibeGuide
Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:57 PM
Like with the "Arab spring", which was suposedly largely fueled by social media in getting out the message to attend, they are claiming the same here. They have demands, but the demands are largely nullified by the fact they are asking the parties working off existing legislation to change their affairs. While I agree with that sentiment, it is a bit misplaced, IMHO.
From what I gathered, it seems pretty unorganized. Of course, when it comes to civil disobediance, I generally look to the movements of the 60s. Those were well organized, very serious affairs. They knew their boundaries and where it was necessary to cross the line for their cause. It did not largely involve poking smot in a park outside stock exchange and a mesh of groups and folks who aren't even fully aware of what they are protesting.
Oct. 6th in Washington, folks.
That is what I was wondering. Seems much research and organization is necessary for a productive protest.
#333
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- VibeTribe
- 4,913 posts
Posted 27 September 2011 - 07:00 PM
Why was the force excessive? They had to drag her away from the mob who were grabbing at them for their own protection. She's grabbing and pulling on the barricade (you can see her in Jwheels video) that alone constitutes interfering with the police who are trying to perform their job.
not saying you're wrong but i don't see anyone grab a cop...i will watch it again
#337
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- VibeTribe
- 4,913 posts
Posted 27 September 2011 - 07:04 PM
Like with the "Arab spring", which was suposedly largely fueled by social media in getting out the message to attend, they are claiming the same here. They have demands, but the demands are largely nullified by the fact they are asking the parties working off existing legislation to change their affairs. While I agree with that sentiment, it is a bit misplaced, IMHO.
From what I gathered, it seems pretty unorganized. Of course, when it comes to civil disobediance, I generally look to the movements of the 60s. Those were well organized, very serious affairs. They knew their boundaries and where it was necessary to cross the line for their cause. It did not largely involve poking smot in a park outside stock exchange and a mesh of groups and folks who aren't even fully aware of what they are protesting.
Oct. 6th in Washington, folks.
i'm sure there were plenty of people who didn't know what the hell they were doing in the 60s too...toking at this thing, i will agree, is very very idiotic...but how many people were actually doing that?
#339
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- VibeTribe
- 2,274 posts
Posted 27 September 2011 - 07:05 PM
I did have a nice lulzy moment last night when my roommate (ultra conservotard) was bitching about the protests then he adds "They dont even have a permit!" I pointed out to him that most meaningful protests and acts of defiance throughout history also, did not have permits.
He mad.
He mad.
#341
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- VibeTribe
- 16,773 posts
Posted 27 September 2011 - 07:06 PM
i'm sure there were plenty of people who didn't know what the hell they were doing in the 60s too...toking at this thing, i will agree, is very very idiotic...but how many people were actually doing that?
I didn't count, but the fragerance was in the air pretty good right by the park and police were largely ignoring it, if that's any consolation prize.
#343
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- VibeTribe
- 256 posts
Posted 27 September 2011 - 07:11 PM
Are they getting any help or guidance from people who know the law? I wonder if the people getting arrested are even read their rights? I've only seen a few arrest videos and it seems they just cuff and stuff a lot of these poor people.
#344
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- VibeTribe
- 16,773 posts
Posted 27 September 2011 - 07:14 PM
i think the 60s get a lil too much credit, esp. since the hindsight of it is mostly corporatized in advertising nowadays
let's not forget that a lot of these folks that fought the man back then are part of the 1% today
That does not make the effort any less real on their part. Everything has a price tag in marketing. Nothing is sacred. And there will always be those who will sell their fundemental principles to the highest bidder.
#345
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- VibeTribe
- 5,233 posts
- LocationNutmeg State
Posted 27 September 2011 - 07:15 PM
Are they getting any help or guidance from people who know the law? I wonder if the people getting arrested are even read their rights? I've only seen a few arrest videos and it seems they just cuff and stuff a lot of these poor people.
The 'Miranda' warning technically only has to be read prior to an interrogation, and more recent Supreme Court cases have even challenged the notion that it has to be read at all.
#346
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- VibeTribe
- 4,913 posts
Posted 27 September 2011 - 07:16 PM
Are they getting any help or guidance from people who know the law? I wonder if the people getting arrested are even read their rights? I've only seen a few arrest videos and it seems they just cuff and stuff a lot of these poor people.
i'd have to look it up again, but i know they do have a lawfirm representing them and are told to write phone numbers on their arms in case they are arrested, since the police will likely confiscate their cell phones upon arrest
i would at least think they're rights are read to them at the station
#350
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- VibeTribe
- 5,210 posts
Posted 27 September 2011 - 07:39 PM
I admire their effort. But, I think they should have gone into it with more organization, clearer goals, etc. I was watching earlier today when Susan Sarandon was there and she brought up a lot of valid points.
As the Wall Street occupation drags on, it's starting to attract more celebrities. Last night filmmaker Michael Moore spoke at Zuccotti Park, and today Susan Sarandon (who recently gave us an interview) dropped by the protest HQ to dispense words of advice.
Sarandon reportedly told the protesters that "Your weakness is that there are so many issues. You're gonna be easy to be dismissed if you don't concentrate on a single cause," an issue with the protest that's been echoed elsewhere. Occupy Wall Street's organizers seek to keep the process entirely democratic, as we've observed at their General Assemblies, and that hasn't helped the protesters define a clear goal.
Sarandon also told the protesters that "You don't want the face of your movement to look like discontented people that don't know what they're talking about."
Occupy Wall Street's rep told us that Sarandon didn't stick around for long, but now they've got City Councilman Charles Barron of East New York visiting today's General Assembly.
As the Wall Street occupation drags on, it's starting to attract more celebrities. Last night filmmaker Michael Moore spoke at Zuccotti Park, and today Susan Sarandon (who recently gave us an interview) dropped by the protest HQ to dispense words of advice.
Sarandon reportedly told the protesters that "Your weakness is that there are so many issues. You're gonna be easy to be dismissed if you don't concentrate on a single cause," an issue with the protest that's been echoed elsewhere. Occupy Wall Street's organizers seek to keep the process entirely democratic, as we've observed at their General Assemblies, and that hasn't helped the protesters define a clear goal.
Sarandon also told the protesters that "You don't want the face of your movement to look like discontented people that don't know what they're talking about."
Occupy Wall Street's rep told us that Sarandon didn't stick around for long, but now they've got City Councilman Charles Barron of East New York visiting today's General Assembly.
