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#251 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 03:37 PM

Maybe you're only seeing what you want to see. There's more than a few grabbing at them when they pull the girl dressed in black wearing the backpack through the barricade, and it certainly seems like some of the protesters are trying to breach that barricade. Do I hear screams of tear it down?

I can't tell for sure, but it looks like the girl in the gray tank top (holding what looks like a cover to a pan?) that's in the middle of that scene grabbing the arm of the cop in white, is the same one that's screaming after getting sprayed.


you're seeing what you want to see...we agree on a ton of shit but it seems consistent that you go soft when it comes to cops

#252 FYC (Find Your Cloud)

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 03:37 PM

yes, I understand that part of it:wink:

Originally Posted by vic
well i've been watching everything...all of it...noone tried to grab any cops...their attacks are clearly unprovoked and in most cases the videos show quite a few seconds before the police attacks


I don't believe for 1 minute that vic could have all the facts based on the video footage that we've seen so far



My speculation is headier than your speculation or if you prefer, your favorite statement based on speculation sucks.
got it. :coffee:

#253 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 03:39 PM

perhaps.

of course, making it public immediately would reduce the probability of said charges ever being made in the first place, and perhaps help them show cause to legally disperse the protesters, if that's what they're looking to do. there's really no reason not to show it if you've got it right now, because the negative PR is something the NYPD really doesn't want or need.


beat me to it

seems pretty cut and dry...none of the videos presented delete what happened before the assaults by officers

#254 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 03:41 PM

yes, I understand that part of it:wink:

Originally Posted by vic
well i've been watching everything...all of it...noone tried to grab any cops...their attacks are clearly unprovoked and in most cases the videos show quite a few seconds before the police attacks


I don't believe for 1 minute that vic could have all the facts based on the video footage that we've seen so far


i have more than you since you apparently haven't even looked since you're asking me to show you while all of the videos are in this very thread

#255 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 03:44 PM

Quit bickering already. Neither of you are down there to get first hand account. I saw people clearly breaking the laws from my stroll through (not that it is hard to break laws in NYC).

Go down there and protest and then report back on observed and perhaps recorded brutality. :coffee:

#256 FYC (Find Your Cloud)

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 03:47 PM

Quit bickering already. Neither of you are down there to get first hand account. I saw people clearly breaking the laws from my stroll through (not that it is hard to break laws in NYC).

Go down there and protest and then report back on observed and perhaps recorded brutality. :coffee:


He's shuttin' it down folks.

#257 Joker

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 03:49 PM

you can look through this very thread

but here's one that wasn't posted...white shirt...again

Again we don't see what he did while the other protester was being arrested. He was told to get back (looks like one of his comrades even tried to get him to pull back) but he decided not to do so and instead got in the cops face. I'm pretty sure that's reason enough to arrest him.

#258 FYC (Find Your Cloud)

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 03:50 PM

You don't have to leave but you can't speculate here.

#259 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 03:52 PM

Again we don't see what he did while the other protester was being arrested. He was told to get back (looks like one of his comrades even tried to get him to pull back) but he decided not to do so and instead got in the cops face. I'm pretty sure that's reason enough to arrest him.


so someone can get arrested for talking to an officer? suite. the cop pushes him. clearly. the guy never laid a hand not looked like he was going to lay a hand on the cop.

i'd love to stop bickering but i'm so goddamn sick of cop sympathizers that think they should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want.

#260 Joker

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 03:52 PM

you're seeing what you want to see...we agree on a ton of shit but it seems consistent that you go soft when it comes to cops

Any cop that is guilty of any wrongdoing should be held accountable.

Any protester that is guilty of any wrongdoing should be held accountable.

#261 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 03:54 PM

You're not going to change people's minds this way, brehm.

#262 Joker

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 03:56 PM

so someone can get arrested for talking to an officer? suite. the cop pushes him. clearly. the guy never laid a hand not looked like he was going to lay a hand on the cop.

i'd love to stop bickering but i'm so goddamn sick of cop sympathizers that think they should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want.

I'm willing to bet he wasn't arrested for "talking to an officer"

He was told to back off from an arrest that was occurring and he refused to do so.

#263 jg

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:06 PM

probably the cops with cameras of their own that can be seen in many of the videos :coffee:


Go to the 14 minute mark of this 60 Minutes video. They claim to have over 2,000 cameras installed in NYC and expect that number to increase to 3,000.

http://www.cbsnews.c...ch/?id=7382308n

#264 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:15 PM

I'm willing to bet he wasn't arrested for "talking to an officer"

He was told to back off from an arrest that was occurring and he refused to do so.



its not illegal to stand

#265 Joker

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:15 PM

That's another thing, the cops could be acting on info they've received from other cameras and/or officers so what looks like cops going in and just randomly grabbing people could be them going in after someone that has already done something wrong and who may be trying to hide out in with the crowd.

Bottom line is we don't know all the facts and pointing fingers at either side right now based on what little we've seen is rather foolish.

#266 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:21 PM

That's another thing, the cops could be acting on info they've received from other cameras and/or officers so what looks like cops going in and just randomly grabbing people could be them going in after someone that has already done something wrong and who may be trying to hide out in with the crowd.


:rotf:

#267 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:21 PM

Are NYC Police Protesting Abuse of Occupy Wall Street?
By Kevin Zeese - Posted on 26 September 2011

The report below is important for many reasons, but I found this in particular to be of interest: "Today we received unconfirmed reports that over one hundred blue collar police refused to come into work in solidarity with our movement. These numbers will grow. We are the 99 percent. You will not silence us." This is what happens in non-violent actions, if protesters stay non-violent, some police refuse to participate in the violence against the protesters. It also shows the critical of importance of everyone attending being ready to film from their phone or other equipment. See The People Are the Media and our media page. We are all the media and that gives us power.



Officer Bologna
Posted 2011-09-26 07:53:19 UTC by OccupyWallSt

Late last night we found out which white collar officer had maced our innocent protesters. We did not release this information as we had not yet come to a consensus on how to approach the situation. Earlier today we discovered that this information had already been released.

Yesterday, an NYPD spokesperson implied that we had edited the video to remove incriminating actions on the part of our peaceful protesters. Here are a few different angles and cuts of the event that we had not previously released:

As you can tell, we did not need to edit the video to implicate this officer in a gross and unconscionable crime.

This is the man who maced these young women without provocation.

His name is Antony Bologna. We demand that he is charged for his crimes. We demand that he receives jail time.

We demand that Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly resigns. Not only can he not control his most senior officers, he is involved in actively sheltering them from receiving any punishment.

We demand that Mayor Michael Bloomberg address our General Assembly and apologize for the police brutality and the cover-up that followed.

This was an attempt to make us weak, this was an attempt to destroy or derail our message, our conversation. It has not succeeded. We have grown, we will grow. Today we received unconfirmed reports that over one hundred blue collar police refused to come into work in solidarity with our movement. These numbers will grow. We are the 99 percent. You will not silence us.

Please call:
Mayor Bloomberg: +1 (212) 639-9675 or +1 (212) 788-2958 Deputy Commissioner of Public Information: +1 (646) 610-6700
NYPD Switchboard: +1 (646) 610-5000
First precinct: +1 (212) 334-0611

Make our voice heard. Make sure that the world knows that everyone deserves equal protection, service, and punishment.

Remain true to our principles of non-violence.

http://october2011.o...upy-wall-street

#268 Joker

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:27 PM

:rotf:

Because it couldn't happen or because you don't want to believe it could happen?

#269 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:28 PM



#270 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:28 PM

Because it couldn't happen or because you don't want to believe it could happen?


bc it is absurd

#271 Joker

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:29 PM

its not illegal to stand

Nobody said it was illegal to stand and I'm pretty sure they didn't get arrested for "standing"

Why not just wait and find out what they actually did get charged with rather than make unsubstantiated claims?

#272 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:30 PM

so the pepper spray was a cop who fond someone from earlier that he had to spray and run away from?

#273 capt_morgan

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:31 PM

these kids should just admit what there really protesting here is capitalism.

#274 Joker

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:35 PM

bc it is absurd

Because all those cameras couldn't possibly pick up anybody doing anything wrong? Because someone couldn't actually see somebody doing something wrong that wasn't caught on video? Because those there to start trouble hoping for conflict couldn't possibly be hiding out amongst the crowd?

Why exactly is it absurd?

#275 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:39 PM

these kids should just admit what there really protesting here is capitalism.


Capitalism should not be condemned, since we haven't had capitalism.
Ron Paul

:gop:

#276 Joker

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:40 PM

so the pepper spray was a cop who fond someone from earlier that he had to spray and run away from?

Dude I didn't say that. And I didn't say the cops haven't done anything wrong. I'm saying we don't know everything.

If you just want to keep making unfounded statements then there's really no sense trying to discuss this with you.

#277 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:43 PM

what would be wrong and where is the proof? not even a statement saying otherwise. just your assumption. lets at least hear it from them that this is what happened. theyve had 3 days to issue a statement.

#278 Sunshower

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 04:48 PM

They are not denying they did it. They can't. They will also get away with it and countless other acts of senseless attacks on these peaceful folks. This is pure bullshit. Hard to believe that some of you could think otherwise!:undecided:

#279 ladygingechilla

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:00 PM

I hate feeling angry, useless and helpless all at once
:bang:

#280 Joker

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:06 PM

what would be wrong and where is the proof? not even a statement saying otherwise. just your assumption. lets at least hear it from them that this is what happened. theyve had 3 days to issue a statement.

I imagine they'll be conducting investigations to determine what happened when this is over. They'd be chasing their tails if they started to respond to every youtube video posted while the event is still going on.

#281 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:10 PM

I imagine they'll be conducting investigations to determine what happened when this is over. They'd be chasing their tails if they started to respond to every youtube video posted while the event is still going on.


well then they are doing a terrible PR job and you can't deny that...they haven't even suggested what you have...even saying 'some' of the arrests were justified by prior video evidence might help...their silence just shows arrogance

#282 hoagie

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:11 PM

what is the maximum number of people who can fit in that square/park? It isnt that big...

#283 Joker

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:13 PM

They are not denying they did it. They can't. They will also get away with it and countless other acts of senseless attacks on these peaceful folks. This is pure bullshit. Hard to believe that some of you could think otherwise!:undecided:

Nor are they confirming they did it.

It's just as hard to believe some of you can actually think every one of those protesters are peaceful and obeying all the laws. :undecided:

I guess nowadays it's all about pronouncing "your side" right and blameless while pinning everything on the other side without actually knowing all the facts. :dunno:

#284 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:15 PM

Nor are they confirming they did it.

It's just as hard to believe some of you can actually think every one of those protesters are peaceful and obeying all the laws. :undecided:

I guess nowadays it's all about pronouncing "your side" right and blameless while pinning everything on the other side without actually knowing all the facts. :dunno:


9/11/2001 - they the United States population made the ultimate "jump to conclusions" mat. :funny1:

#285 capt_morgan

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:17 PM

It's just as hard to believe some of you can actually think every one of those protesters are peaceful and obeying all the laws. :undecided:

yea...not all these kids are innocent lol

#286 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:24 PM

It's just as hard to believe some of you can actually think every one of those protesters are peaceful and obeying all the laws. :undecided:


if there were instances of violence from the protesters, you can bet your ass the media would be all over it...show me something...until then, i'll have to go with yes they are

#287 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:28 PM

They aren't though. You have to understand the complexity and amount of laws in the city of NY. Laws are being broken. Bet on it. Laws broken that deserve brutality?
That is another story all together.

#288 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:46 PM

They aren't though. You have to understand the complexity and amount of laws in the city of NY. Laws are being broken. Bet on it. Laws broken that deserve brutality?
That is another story all together.


not saying what you're saying isn't true, but please explain

#289 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 05:58 PM

I'm saying that blocking traffic, j-walking and an assortment of other "laws" makes it almost impossible to not break them in the first place. When you group that many people together in a small space, without a permit no less, you are going to have people breaking the laws.

That does not mean I condone police brutality or even bothering to fully enforce (vs. simply protect) laws that are trivial in the state of a mass protest (like street blockage. They could easily reroute traffic if they chose, it is done all the time for lesser things). But to think this many people can descend upon a confined space like that park and NOT have people out of line and end up in the clink, is short sighted at best.
For the eleventeenth billionth time, the message at this venue is out of context and isn't going to produce the desired response that the 99% are looking for. It's just plain old logistics. I support their efforts completely beyond that personal belief and summary.

They should all have organized to take part in the October 6th shutdown on Pennsyltucky Ave.

#290 Joker

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:02 PM

if there were instances of violence from the protesters, you can bet your ass the media would be all over it...show me something...until then, i'll have to go with yes they are

Again, did I say anything about violence from protesters or did I say there were laws being broken? As for the laws being broken there appears to be a few different ones they've been arresting people for

80 'Occupy Wall Street' Protesters Arrested

Dozens of demonstrators who have vowed to "occupy" Wall Street were arrested Saturday on the seventh day of a social media-fueled protest against U.S. banking institutions, according to protest organizers.

Patrick Bruner, a spokesman for the protest group that doesn't have an official name but has often been referred to as "Occupy Wall Street," said that their monitors have recorded at least 85 arrests being made on Saturday, most in the Union Square area.

There were approximately 80 arrests, mainly for disorderly conduct by individuals who blocked vehicular and pedestrian traffic, but also for resisting arrest, obstructing governmental administration and, in one instance, for assault on a police officer, said NYPD spokesman Paul Browne.

More
http://online.wsj.co...4076524234.html

#291 Jwheelz

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:10 PM


I'm not going to wade into the discussion about the overall situation since I haven't been there firsthand, but from this video it's pretty clear that the pepper spray incident was unprovoked. It came without any warning, and the people that were sprayed were literally just standing there, they had been speaking out loud while another person was being arrested, but, you know, they have a right to do that. After that someone asked a police officer where they were supposed to go and then out of nowhere the officer pulled his pepper spray and started spraying indiscriminately, if you look carefully you can even see what looks like one of the other officers in blue wiping his eye because he received some pepper spray.

The women are screaming probably because if you've never been pepper sprayed before I understand it hurts like hell. And they're also yelling for someone to give them water.

I'm not going to deny that there are probably people breaking all sorts of laws on both sides of the conflicts that are happening, but it's not fair to assume that there's always a justification for every single police action. It's also not fair to assume that every single police action is unjustified. There's a lot of nuance and I think it's really hard to judge unless you're an eyewitness to a particular incident.. having multiple people filming is very helpful though, and from a perspective of trying to get people talking, it's not as important what actually happened but what it looks like happened.

#292 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:12 PM

how does one get arrested for resisting arrest?:huh:

#293 GoPlastic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:14 PM

how does one get arrested for resisting arrest?:huh:


that's like waking up dead. :lol:

#294 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:21 PM

I'm saying that blocking traffic, j-walking and an assortment of other "laws" makes it almost impossible to not break them in the first place. When you group that many people together in a small space, without a permit no less, you are going to have people breaking the laws.

That does not mean I condone police brutality or even bothering to fully enforce (vs. simply protect) laws that are trivial in the state of a mass protest (like street blockage. They could easily reroute traffic if they chose, it is done all the time for lesser things). But to think this many people can descend upon a confined space like that park and NOT have people out of line and end up in the clink, is short sighted at best.


the streets should have been blocked off then, as you seem to state...from the looks of it the cops are not keeping the peace, as is their jobs...for one these nets they're using are a joke and they could easily have used wooden or metal barricades...the protesters have been there for 8 days so they had plenty of time to prepare for saturday

#295 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:23 PM

This is also good for business, vic. You seem to believe that the police are really there to keep the peace. We both know that is just a facade.

#296 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:28 PM

This is also good for business, vic. You seem to believe that the police are really there to keep the peace. We both know that is just a facade.


duh...keeping the peace is not attacking protesters the way they are...it is closer to inciting a riot...the protesters should be given nothing but credit for keeping it non-violent on their end

#297 Joker

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:30 PM

I'm not going to wade into the discussion about the overall situation since I haven't been there firsthand, but from this video it's pretty clear that the pepper spray incident was unprovoked. It came without any warning, and the people that were sprayed were literally just standing there, they had been speaking out loud while another person was being arrested, but, you know, they have a right to do that. After that someone asked a police officer where they were supposed to go and then out of nowhere the officer pulled his pepper spray and started spraying indiscriminately, if you look carefully you can even see what looks like one of the other officers in blue wiping his eye because he received some pepper spray.

The women are screaming probably because if you've never been pepper sprayed before I understand it hurts like hell. And they're also yelling for someone to give them water.

I'm not going to deny that there are probably people breaking all sorts of laws on both sides of the conflicts that are happening, but it's not fair to assume that there's always a justification for every single police action. It's also not fair to assume that every single police action is unjustified. There's a lot of nuance and I think it's really hard to judge unless you're an eyewitness to a particular incident.. having multiple people filming is very helpful though, and from a perspective of trying to get people talking, it's not as important what actually happened but what it looks like happened.

While you see it as unprovoked and indiscriminate it appears it was directed at the group that included the girl in the gray tank top, who moments before had been interfering with the officers (as opposed to literally just standing there) who were trying to take the girl dressed in black (who seemed to be pulling on the orange barricade net in an attempt to disrupt the police actions) into custody.

As I've said already I don't doubt for a second there are cops that are acting wrong and this may be one of those instances but nothing is crystal clear at this point

#298 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:37 PM

duh...keeping the peace is not attacking protesters the way they are...it is closer to inciting a riot...the protesters should be given nothing but credit for keeping it non-violent on their end


Bro, you need to stop preaching to the choir and be combatative to those who are on your side. The media wont even cover this in any real sense. Like I said, you're under the impression that keeping the peace is their goal. Their goal is in protecting their assets.

#299 vic

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:39 PM

the pepper spray incident is clearly unprovoked and you are putting your own spin on it at this point...this was not a cop that was standing there and felt that it wa neccessary to subdue someone...he CLEARLY is standing a good 20 feet away and then CLEARLY runs over and sprays it indiscriminately into the crowd and CLEARLY sneaks away immediately...you're making quite the stretch for this guy and i don't understand why

i will agree that it isn't as clear cut with the woman that was dragged, although the force they used is quite excessve obviously...it's very unclear whether or not she provoked it any other way than verbally, which would be not at all...you are allowed to yell at officers unless that's one of those complex nyc laws i don't know about

#300 TEO

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 06:40 PM

What does "social media fueled protest" mean, a bunch got together based on social media postings rather than a well thought out and organized protest?

Seriously wondering as TASB's assessment did not make the onsite seem well organized with recognized good leadership.