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Government changes the rules again, at the last minute.


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#51 JBetty

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 04:47 PM

Or what if I have Outlook, but then the company merges with another company and they get rid of Outlook and go to Lotus Notes?  



#52 Jabadoodle

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 04:48 PM

The whole fucking game is fixed and until we see that and start trying to break it all apart and find comprehensive,political, and creative solutions rather than tear each other up- well gee,  i don't even want to know ya. 

 

Yes. Even more than a couple days ago, the more I look into everything, it's all money influencing politics that is driving almost everything that is not working well. 

 

What Jabadoodle is talking about is a fundamental change to the Constitution. Not just an amendment, butt a complete shift on its axis kind of redistribution of power- and I'd like to see you figure out how to do that without a revolution. 

 

Honestly, I was not suggesting this 4th-Branch idea could ever be passed in the US. I know I didn't say that, but it's true. I mentioned it for two reasons. First is just that it's a creative suggestion. This isn't the answer, but we are going to need creative solutions to the problems we face. Any suggestion like that gets the juices flowing. Also, if a new democracy was forming (lets say in Belarus ;) ) maybe a good idea would be to consider a 4th-Branch along the lines I suggested.

 

Sister, I'm all about a revolution. I've long said the thing we need most is to be 'reset'.

 

I assume you're mostly joking, but for what it's worth we should do everything we can to avoid revolution; they're extremely bloody and it's very easy to end up with something much worse that what we have now. 

 

I don't think more government is the answer. I think wiser, more focused government is. Which, by definition, would be smaller, IMO.

Why buy more file cabinets and planners when you can get a computer, scan all of your documents, use Outlook (or preferably something Open Source) to keep track of your schedule, and recycle the file cabinet?

You can take a backup of all of your data offsite so that if there's a fire, you still have your stuff. You'd have more room with the file cabinets gone to use for other things...

and so forth.


Adding a 4th Branch and having a wiser, more focused, and smaller government are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I agree a wiser more focused and probably smaller government is best. Question is, what government to cut and what to maybe add. A branch that was small and had a limited role (voting districts, rules of the congress, and a few other very limited responsibilities) could result in shrinking the total size (employees & budgets) of government.

 

I was going to use the computer analogy for "my" side of the debate as well. Often (more in the 80's and early 90's) offices did exactly what you said, Tim. They were overwhelmed by complexity and paperwork. What did they do? Not cut back. But spent more. Brought in complex (to that time) machines. Machines that required experts, and bookcases of user manuals, and software (more manuals) and employees to be sent out for training (more paper). Etc. ~ But the results were (in most cases) a net positive. But for a while they had the old paper AND all the new machines, papers, manuals, etc. 

Less may be the answer. But adding a little to get it may be the way to get there. 

In short, I'm not arguing for more government. I'm not even saying the 4th Branch idea is a good one. What I am saying is that to reject it just because it's "more government" is short sighted and probably a logical fallacy. An idea has to be vetted on it's particular merits, not that it doesn't pass some litmus test. 



#53 Tim the Beek

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 04:54 PM

Or what if I have Outlook, but then the company merges with another company and they get rid of Outlook and go to Lotus Notes?  


James_Bond_Lotus_Esprit_Turbo.jpg

 

Apparently, with Lotus you'd be a lot taller.



#54 Tim the Beek

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 04:55 PM

And we'd have to call you Jbb. 'Stead of Jbooby.



#55 JBetty

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 05:01 PM

Jbb?



#56 Tim the Beek

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 05:05 PM

J- I'm not averse to the idea of more complexity in the short term to get to a sharper, more efficient long term. However, I think we've been shown over time that once government gets bigger, it's very hard to get it smaller. "It" likes being big, and resists sensible solutions (see what happened with Simpson-Bowles) which would be in our best interests in the long run.

 



#57 Tim the Beek

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 05:05 PM

Jbb?


Lotus girl has lil boobs.



#58 Jabadoodle

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 05:32 PM

J- I'm not averse to the idea of more complexity in the short term to get to a sharper, more efficient long term. However, I think we've been shown over time that once government gets bigger, it's very hard to get it smaller. "It" likes being big, and resists sensible solutions (see what happened with Simpson-Bowles) which would be in our best interests in the long run.

 


I agree it has a tendency to want to get big and not to give up anything it already has. Seems to me there are only three choices
* No government -- then we don't need any government controls on government (read: Checks & Balances)
* Government with no internal controls -- it will grow or shrink, be viable or crappy, only based on voting, lobbying, etc.

* Government with some internal controls -- which means a bigger government than without those control mechanisms.

Hell! to be absurd about it, all of the legislative and judicial branch functions are just more bigger government. We could just have the executive and it would be a smaller government. But we all (I think) agree that those branches are necessary, even though they add substantially to the size of the government. 

Anyway, we're in dead horse territory :deadhorse:  .



 



#59 Ginger Snap

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 07:44 PM

J- I'm not averse to the idea of more complexity in the short term to get to a sharper, more efficient long term. However, I think we've been shown over time that once government gets bigger, it's very hard to get it smaller. "It" likes being big, and resists sensible solutions (see what happened with Simpson-Bowles) which would be in our best interests in the long run.

 

 

"it" - what is this "it" and how do you know that "it" feels anything? What's driving our government? Who drives our government? Who is asking for the MOST and giving the least from our government? The government is inanimate- it's an idea- a tool to have things done- there are actual PEOPLE behind those ideas driving things in a certain direction- lets talk about THOSE people and their intentions.



#60 Ginger Snap

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 07:47 PM

I think they like us all talking about how big or small our "government" is, as if we have some say over how that is actually controlled while they reap all the revenue and continue to harness power over the lot of us. 



#61 Tim the Beek

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 07:49 PM

"it" - what is this "it" and how do you know that "it" feels anything? What's driving our government? Who drives our government? Who is asking for the MOST and giving the least from our government? The government is inanimate- it's an idea- a tool to have things done- there are actual PEOPLE behind those ideas driving things in a certain direction- lets talk about THOSE people and their intentions.


Hence the quotation marks. Of course government doesn't feel anything, and is driven by people (and corporations, which aren't animate, but aren't exactly inanimate either.)



#62 JBetty

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 07:55 PM

Whatchoo talking bout, Beek?

SCOTUS said corporations are people, too.   :joker:



#63 Ginger Snap

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:01 PM

Hence the quotation marks. Of course government doesn't feel anything, and is driven by people (and corporations, which aren't animate, but aren't exactly inanimate either.)

 

So let's deconstruct those too. It;s not like corporations run all by themselves- there are actual people making actual decisions and this whole thing of trying to make them this big looming force that is totally intangible and beyond touch just seems like a big facade to me. There are actual players making decisions- fucking break it down. Just because corporations have their fingers in everything doesn't mean that we can't bite their damn tips off til they bleed to death. They're going to distract us with their goddamn wars- but it seems to me- man I don't know. It's so corrupt. 



#64 Tim the Beek

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:06 PM

So let's deconstruct those too. It;s not like corporations run all by themselves- there are actual people making actual decisions and this whole thing of trying to make them this big looming force that is totally intangible and beyond touch just seems like a big facade to me. There are actual players making decisions- fucking break it down. 


No, but by their nature, corporations (for profit ones, particularly) actually, to some extent, run the people who run them, so to just say people are the issue in this case seems too narrow an approach...

 

To me.



#65 Ginger Snap

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:11 PM

Yeah I know. Sure would be easier if we could just be like Martin Luther and say fuck you pope. :lol:



#66 Tim the Beek

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:14 PM

:lol:



#67 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:25 PM



#68 Ginger Snap

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:33 PM

Oh man TaSb isn't gonna go awol on us like Blendix is he?