Jump to content



Photo
- - - - -

4 Reasons to Avoid Goy


  • Please log in to reply
114 replies to this topic

#1 Depends

Depends
  • VibeTribe
  • 12,013 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:11 PM

Are these words intended to be insulting, or offensive?

 

goy, shiksa, shaigetz, shvartze, apikores, misnagid



#2 TheDHJ

TheDHJ
  • VibeTribe
  • 31,806 posts
  • LocationSouthern Colorado

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:18 PM

Depends. :lol:

Goy, shiksa and shaegitz are internal slang we use to describe non Jews.

Shvartze is the Jew equivalent of using the n word when used as a pejorative. The others I'm not familiar with or I'm not hearing right.

#3 Depends

Depends
  • VibeTribe
  • 12,013 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:24 PM

I know what they mean, and I'm sure that most people use it, and not think it is offensive.  But isn't it?

 

 

When a  term that is used, it is to show separation or difference between you and them. And that’s racism , no?



#4 hoagie

hoagie
  • VibeTribe
  • 19,454 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:25 PM

you cant be offended if you dont understand the words.



#5 Depends

Depends
  • VibeTribe
  • 12,013 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:26 PM

http://www.merriam-w...ionary/apikores



#6 Depends

Depends
  • VibeTribe
  • 12,013 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:29 PM

you cant be offended if you dont understand the words.

Whether you are offended or not is not the question.  If the user knows what it means, is it offensive.

 

 

" What is that goyta doing here"?    Offensive?

 

"Yeah, he is married to a shiksa"  Offensive?

 

"Don't clean that up, I have a shiksa that comes in to do that"



#7 TheDHJ

TheDHJ
  • VibeTribe
  • 31,806 posts
  • LocationSouthern Colorado

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:35 PM

I married a shiksa. I say it all the time. I'm not offended, nor is she. Next question?

#8 TheDHJ

TheDHJ
  • VibeTribe
  • 31,806 posts
  • LocationSouthern Colorado

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:36 PM

FYI a shiksa is a non Jewish girl who stands out at a bar mitzvah.

#9 Depends

Depends
  • VibeTribe
  • 12,013 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:40 PM

When you use it to identify yourself, it may not be offensive.  But you have never heard these terms used in a derogatory manner?



#10 TheDHJ

TheDHJ
  • VibeTribe
  • 31,806 posts
  • LocationSouthern Colorado

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:41 PM

Just shvartze by my grandparents years ago. Like I said it's the Jew equivalent of n.

#11 sarah b.

sarah b.
  • VibeTribe
  • 74,031 posts
  • LocationRockland and Long Island, NY

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:41 PM

Please don't use language like that, here. While they may be used without malintent by folks unaware of what they really mean (which would be most people who haven't researched their etymology), they are also used in not nice ways, and that's not okay. You wouldn't use the N word in here, would you? Or call somebody vermin?

Some reading on the topic (thanks, google): http://en.m.wikipedi...used_in_English
Urbandictionary.com offers a variety of definitions.

#12 Depends

Depends
  • VibeTribe
  • 12,013 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:41 PM

Growing up on LolLong Island, I have been the shaigetz in a relationship more than once.

 

It always pointed to an "Us" and "Them" mentality



#13 Depends

Depends
  • VibeTribe
  • 12,013 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:48 PM

I'm not using the terms, I'm asking.

 

I think many non Jewish people find the terms derogatory, while many Jewish folks, grew up with the terms, and do not find the offensive in the least.

 

I'm just asking....

 

I find it interesting how terms have changed over the years, to go from neutral, or mildly offensive, to offensive.  The term Negro comes to mind. 60 years ago it was a common term, today it would be deemed offensive.

 

I see goy, shiksa, etc as mildly to extremely offensive, depending upon it's use.   And I'm talking about people who do know EXACTLY what it means.



#14 sarah b.

sarah b.
  • VibeTribe
  • 74,031 posts
  • LocationRockland and Long Island, NY

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:51 PM

That mentality is so destructive. I understand why it may have been useful in czarist Russia, or when running from Nazis, but humanity's all one. Sharing a religion or even a culture doesn't guarantee ethical behavior or integrity on anyone's part. I have been "that Jewish girl" at a college boyfriend's house (Jewish wasn't used kindly, in that sentence). The circling of wagons isn't unique to any one group ... I hadn't known that, prior (in a dating context). I dated a variety of guys in high school ... And didn't tell my dad about any of them, 'cause I didn't want to be told who to date.

#15 TheDHJ

TheDHJ
  • VibeTribe
  • 31,806 posts
  • LocationSouthern Colorado

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:54 PM

I'm not condoning the use of offensive words I'm just commenting on the cultural contexts in which I grew up. There are many primitive tribes that use words to describe others. Are they racist?

#16 Depends

Depends
  • VibeTribe
  • 12,013 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:56 PM

Yes, I agree 100%

there is a big difference between:

 

"You're Jewish, aren't you?"

and

"You're a Jew, aren't you?"

 

 

So much so, that google pops this up if you use the term "Jew" in a search

 

http://www.google.com/explanation.html



#17 JBetty

JBetty
  • VibeTribe
  • 19,967 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:59 PM

I married a shiksa. I say it all the time. I'm not offended, nor is she. Next question?

 

 

I always get the shiksa chair at Seders.  

lolShiksaBetty



#18 Depends

Depends
  • VibeTribe
  • 12,013 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:59 PM

I'm not condoning the use of offensive words I'm just commenting on the cultural contexts in which I grew up. There are many primitive tribes that use words to describe others. Are they racist?

I'm saying when you use terms, that may be done in a derogatory context, that show separation between you and them, most likely, yes, racist.

 

I would bet that your grandfather never thought shavtz was offensive.  maybe he did, dunno. In Italian households, the term is moolie, short for moulinyan. (sp?) or eggplant. (color)  def offensive.



#19 TheDHJ

TheDHJ
  • VibeTribe
  • 31,806 posts
  • LocationSouthern Colorado

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:02 PM

In that era of course not. Paula Deen'd. He was a WW2 vet. The Japanese were Japs and so on. That was the cultural norm of the time.

#20 sarah b.

sarah b.
  • VibeTribe
  • 74,031 posts
  • LocationRockland and Long Island, NY

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:03 PM

The right word would be bigoted, and it would depend on context. When someone breaks a glass bottle and someone else gets hurt because of it, that is why we can't bring glass bottles to festivals anymore. I'm applying the same principle to my choice of language use. If I'm at my dad's, and someone uses that sort of language, I speak up. I'm not going to remain silent, here. Shaigetz and shiksa come from vermin. If someone wants to take that back, that's nice for them, but they're still calling themselves a word whose root is vermin and whose primary usage is derogatory, and I wouldn't refer to anyone that way.

#21 JBetty

JBetty
  • VibeTribe
  • 19,967 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:05 PM

Gotta know your audience.

Like calling someone a FuckFace.

You wouldn't say it to any stranger, but you would to DHJ.



#22 TheDHJ

TheDHJ
  • VibeTribe
  • 31,806 posts
  • LocationSouthern Colorado

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:08 PM

That's pigfucker to you.

#23 TheDHJ

TheDHJ
  • VibeTribe
  • 31,806 posts
  • LocationSouthern Colorado

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:09 PM

Everyone in this thread needs to watch Blazing Saddles and lol.

#24 JBetty

JBetty
  • VibeTribe
  • 19,967 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:09 PM

Pigfucker is right.



#25 namaste

namaste
  • VibeTribe
  • 495 posts
  • Locationpine plains, ny

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:10 PM

hooray Sarah!  I totally agree.  I grew up in a town in the 1970"s for pete's sake, where 'those dirty wops' weren't allowed in the country club!  Yes, sadly, seriously.  I'm Italian and was a teenagers at the time.  Crazy how much verbiage affects us, but it's what sets us apart from the lower thinking animals.  I understand too, how certain words are part of the vernacular of another era, but they were offensive then and meant to offend.  We should allow what was wrong in the past to die off and correct the wrongs by being better people.  IMHO   

Namaste

Karen  <3



#26 sarah b.

sarah b.
  • VibeTribe
  • 74,031 posts
  • LocationRockland and Long Island, NY

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:10 PM

Gotta know your audience.

For sure. Don't mind me if I'd rather err on the side of welcome. You can only imagine the bigots I've dealt with in the terrarium that inspire such a knee-jerk reaction on my part.

#27 sarah b.

sarah b.
  • VibeTribe
  • 74,031 posts
  • LocationRockland and Long Island, NY

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:15 PM

I do some volunteer work with the formerly ultra-orthodox who are seeking to integrate into civilian life. It's amazing just how insulated some communities can be.

#28 In A Silent Way

In A Silent Way
  • VibeTribe
  • 26,964 posts
  • LocationShoreline, CT

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:20 PM

Step One. Collect tzitzit.

Step Two:

Step 3: Profit!



#29 PieDoh

PieDoh
  • VibeTribe
  • 5,519 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:55 PM

reason 1. can be used perjoratively
reason 2. can be perceived as a prjorative
reason 3. can be confused with a perjorative
reason 4. goyim will never accept that being called goyim can be a good thing....

#30 DF

DF
  • VibeTribe
  • 1,829 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:50 PM

Everyone in this thread needs to watch Blazing Saddles and lol.

 

 

The sheriff is Sh**bleep**ze?   awesome movie by the way :)   folks need to chill sometimes...tougher skin.



#31 JBetty

JBetty
  • VibeTribe
  • 19,967 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:03 PM

Where all the white women at?

 

 

blazing6.jpg



#32 TheDHJ

TheDHJ
  • VibeTribe
  • 31,806 posts
  • LocationSouthern Colorado

Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:07 PM

Vus dus schvartze?

#33 china cat

china cat
  • VibeTribe
  • 14,922 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:14 PM

interesting discussion, I have never heard these words.

 

the offensive language debate continues in my dept. all the time.

 

Sa, I'm not sure the glass bottle analogy applies. When people step on glass they don't choose to feel pain or get hurt, it just happens--there is a cause-effect relationship.

 

Being offended could be deemed a personal decision.  People can choose to be offended (or not) by someone else's opinions and/or ignorance. Offense is an activity of one's mind.

 

words are social agreements - inherently, they have no meaning--we just agree certain sounds define certain things. But, sometimes, as in this thread, we don't agree. People are different, meanings are ambiguous.. we apply culturally constructed understandings and our own personal filters to what we hear.

 

Having said that, I do realize, on a pragmatic level, words have consequences. And I don't advocate using words that dehumanize or offend.  This thread reveals we could all be more aware of our audience and sensitive to one another.



#34 china cat

china cat
  • VibeTribe
  • 14,922 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:25 PM

I'm saying when you use terms, that may be done in a derogatory context, that show separation between you and them, most likely, yes, racist.

 

I would bet that your grandfather never thought shavtz was offensive.  maybe he did, dunno. In Italian households, the term is moolie, short for moulinyan. (sp?) or eggplant. (color)  def offensive.

 

I am sorry for my ignorance around this: is being Jewish being of a race or a religion?



#35 DF

DF
  • VibeTribe
  • 1,829 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:25 PM

Where all the white women at?

 

 

blazing6.jpg

 

vibes i guess :lol:



#36 DF

DF
  • VibeTribe
  • 1,829 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:26 PM

I am sorry for my ignorance around this: is being Jewish being of a race or a religion?

There are also black jews..so that answers that. :)



#37 TheDHJ

TheDHJ
  • VibeTribe
  • 31,806 posts
  • LocationSouthern Colorado

Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:37 PM

I am sorry for my ignorance around this: is being Jewish being of a race or a religion?

In terms of cultural context, and I'm putting anthropology hat on here, it's complicated. Jews are an ancient people that transcend modern ideas of race and religion. At it's core I'd say that Semites as a whole represent a primitive idea of race.

#38 TheDHJ

TheDHJ
  • VibeTribe
  • 31,806 posts
  • LocationSouthern Colorado

Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:37 PM

There are also black jews..so that answers that. :)

Sammy Davis would refer to himself as a Hebro. :lol:

#39 JBetty

JBetty
  • VibeTribe
  • 19,967 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:41 PM

One can convert to a new religion, but not to a new race.



#40 TheDHJ

TheDHJ
  • VibeTribe
  • 31,806 posts
  • LocationSouthern Colorado

Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:43 PM

One can convert to a new religion, but not to a new race.

Right, but you're still a Jew by blood. Like I said it's complicated.

#41 JBetty

JBetty
  • VibeTribe
  • 19,967 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:10 PM

Right, but you're still a Jew by blood. Like I said it's complicated.

 

 

Generally speaking, yes.

But that statement discounts all the descendants of those who converted to Judaism.



#42 hoagie

hoagie
  • VibeTribe
  • 19,454 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:18 PM

I'm not using the terms, I'm asking.

 

I think many non Jewish people find the terms derogatory, while many Jewish folks, grew up with the terms, and do not find the offensive in the least.

 

I'm just asking....

 

I find it interesting how terms have changed over the years, to go from neutral, or mildly offensive, to offensive.  The term Negro comes to mind. 60 years ago it was a common term, today it would be deemed offensive.

 

I see goy, shiksa, etc as mildly to extremely offensive, depending upon it's use.   And I'm talking about people who do know EXACTLY what it means.

 

i couldnt care less about being offended by yiddish phrases.  Do it all you want, as far as Im concerned..



#43 Feesh

Feesh
  • VibeTribe
  • 8,589 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:30 PM

offensensitivity.jpg



#44 sarah b.

sarah b.
  • VibeTribe
  • 74,031 posts
  • LocationRockland and Long Island, NY

Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:45 PM

Know what's offensive? Seeing a girl bawling her eyes out because her brother called her a shiksa for wearing short sleeves. Use whatever words you want. I'm happy to leave, if I feel uncomfortable somewhere. China, I don't care if my analogy wasn't perfect. I see it as no different than calling someone a "nigger," so I don't use it. No one has to agree with me or understand why I feel this way. I'm really glad folks don't get it. Some of the bs I've seen the ultraorthodox pull on their own kin is stuff of which I wish I weren't aware, sometimes. It doesn't take religious fanaticism to make people toxic, but it sure makes the toxic parts glow. This is the sort of use of it I find offensive, and it's my choice to not use it:



#45 JBetty

JBetty
  • VibeTribe
  • 19,967 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:49 PM

I don't think anyone disagrees with your choice, Sarah.  :heart:



#46 sarah b.

sarah b.
  • VibeTribe
  • 74,031 posts
  • LocationRockland and Long Island, NY

Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:57 PM

I can't wait to see you in a couple of weeks, shower betty. <3

#47 Ginger Snap

Ginger Snap
  • VibeTribe
  • 12,808 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:24 PM

My understanding is that Jewish is more an ethnic distinction than merely a racial or religious one because is also about shared culture but also shared ancestry (blood). 



#48 china cat

china cat
  • VibeTribe
  • 14,922 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:28 PM

I don't think anyone disagrees with your choice, Sarah.   :heart:

 

this.

 

Hi Sarah, I don't say nigger because I think its offensive but plenty of my black students say it--I cringe but clearly it doesn't have the same connotation to them as it does to me. Just like Josh calling his wife shiksa.  I think we all respect your opinion. Some are offended by these terms and some aren't, I think that's all people are saying--it's just a discussion. You are a caring person who feels passionately about this issue because you don't want to see people get hurt. Nothin wrong with that.



#49 Ginger Snap

Ginger Snap
  • VibeTribe
  • 12,808 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:30 PM

When a  term that is used, it is to show separation or difference between you and them. And that’s racism , no?

 

No, that in and of itself is not racism, racism comes after when the difference is deemed less than or inferior. People call me ginger all the time and I take it as a compliment, but I've been told if I go to england I should not. 



#50 Ginger Snap

Ginger Snap
  • VibeTribe
  • 12,808 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:34 PM

Pretty much the only time I can imagine ever beating my children is if I heard them say nigger. Even typing it out makes me cringe. I know it's just a word, but where I come, that word is evil.