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Should Homeschooling be outlawed?


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#1 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:11 PM

Should the US be more like European countries such as Sweden?

 

 

http://www.charisman...omeschooled-boy

 

Supreme Court of Sweden Asked to Free Abducted Home-Schooled Boy

 

Sweden’s highest court is being asked to free an 11-year-old boy whom government officials have held in captivity for four years because his parents home-schooled him.

Attorneys with Alliance Defending Freedom and the Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) are legal advisers to the parents, who are represented by Ruby Harrold-Claesson of the Nordic Committee for Human Rights.

Social services authorities placed Domenic Johansson in foster care and a government school in 2009 and rarely allowed his parents, Christer and Annie Johansson, to visit him. The government cut off all visitation the following year. The appeal to the Supreme Court of Sweden comes after a midlevel appellate court reversed a lower court’s ruling that had restored parental rights to Domenic’s parents.

“The government shouldn’t abduct and imprison children—and especially not because it doesn’t like home-schooling,” says Alliance Defending Freedom Senior Legal Counsel Roger Kiska. “Instead of protecting its citizens, Sweden’s government has become a frightening threat. There is no justification for taking a child away from his parents for four years simply because the parents wanted to educate their child at home. This is a tragedy and injustice of epic proportions, and we are asking Sweden’s highest court to right this egregious wrong.”
 

 

 

http://www.christian...ion-case-94572/

 

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit heard arguments Tuesday in a case, Romeike vs. Holder, that could grant or revoke asylum for the Romeike homeschooling family. If the Romeikes lose, they could be deported back to Germany, where the state threatened to take their children away from them if they did not send them to public school
 

 

 

 

 

Why is the state so threatened by homeschooling? Homeschooled children out perform state sponsored indoctrination across the board. Did I justanswer my own question?



#2 gregoir

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:15 PM

I feel like a lot of important information is missing from the article.  In general I have no problem with homeschooling but feel it should be regulated a lot more.  Sorry most adults are not qualified to teach most high school level courses even though they think they are.



#3 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:24 PM

Regulated more? They still have to be state tested. And apparently, these parents are actually more than qualified to teach teh courses. They're, on average, out performing state sponsored schools.

 

http://www.ericdiges...2000-3/home.htm

 

The Scholastic Achievement of Home School Students. ERIC/AE Digest.

Summarizing demographic characteristics and achievement results for 20,760 home school students, the largest study of home schooling conducted to date (Rudner,1999a) was released in Spring 1999 with a great deal of press coverage. This Digest highlights some of the findings, identifies limitations of the study, and presents several conclusions.

 

MAJOR FINDINGS - ACHIEVEMENT
Almost 25% of home school students were enrolled one or more grades above their age-level peers in public and private schools.

Home school student achievement test scores were exceptionally high. The median scores for every subtest at every grade (typically in the 70th to 80th percentile) were well above those of public and Catholic/Private school students.

On average, home school students in grades 1 to 4 performed one grade level above their age-level public/private school peers on achievement tests.

Students who had been home schooled their entire academic life had higher scholastic achievement test scores than students who had also attended other educational programs.

There were no meaningful differences in achievement by gender, whether the student was enrolled in a full-service curriculum, or whether a parent held a state issued teaching certificate.

 

 

Recent statistics from The College Board and the American College Testing Program (ACT) indicate that home schoolers are exceeding the national average test scores on both the SAT and the ACT college entrance exams. In 1999, the 2219 students who identified themselves as home schooled students on the SAT test, scored an average of 1083 (verbal 548, math 535), 67 points above the national average of 1016. A perfect SAT score is 1600. Also in 1999, 3616 home school students taking the ACT scored an average of 22.7, compared to the national average of 21, a perfect score being 36.
http://hslda.org/doc...02/00000229.asp



#4 Tim the Beek

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:58 PM

Why is the state so threatened by homeschooling? ...state sponsored indoctrination...Did I justanswer my own question?

 

I reckon so. At least in part.
 

I feel like a lot of important information is missing from the article. 

 

I wonder if there isn't more to the story as well.

But homeschooling should be not only legal, but encouraged, IMO.



#5 jnjn

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:08 PM

i find it appalling that a child would be taken from their parents & put into foster care over home schooling.  unless of course there's more to this story that we're not seeing right now.



#6 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:25 PM

Which story are we asking for more information on? The one regarding sweden, or the German family in TN on asylum?



#7 china cat

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:41 PM

no, it shouldn't be outlawed.



#8 jnjn

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:41 PM

i'm interested in the one from sweden



#9 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:43 PM

http://shine.yahoo.c...-211439466.html

 

Annie and Christer Johannson haven't seen their son, Domenic, in nearly four years. He was just seven when he was taken away from them at gunpoint in June 2009. The family was on an airplane about to leave Sweden for their new home in India, where Annie's family is from.

Also on Shine: Can Kids Be Raised in a Gender-Neutral Society? Sweden Thinks So

But the people who took him weren't kidnappers or terrorists -- they were Swedish police officers operating under orders from social service agencies. And social services ordered them to seize the boy—not to prevent him from being physically or sexually abused—but for being homeschooled. At least, that's the official reason they gave when they grabbed him and hauled him off the plane.

Homeschooling is illegal in Sweden, where the perks offered to working parents are great but the regulations imposed by the government are many. For example: People from "non-noble" families are prevented from giving their children "noble" names, and all schools must follow the exact same curriculum.

Swedish officials say that homeschooling is unnecessary because the country provides a "comprehensive and objective" education and restricts religious instruction in school, The Washington Times reported. Permission to homeschool is supposed to be granted on a case-by-case basis, but exceptions to the law are rare.

“Since all teaching in Swedish schools is both comprehensive and objective, there is no need for home schooling with reference to religious or philosophical reasons, and this is why this is not an option in the new Education Act,” Anna Neuman, press secretary for Education Minister Jan Bjorklund, said in 2010.

But the ban was officially passed in 2010 and enacted in 2011—long after police had taken Domenic away from his parents. The fact that the boy was seized during summer vacation, when school was not in session, also makes the case questionable.

 

According to the the Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA), at first the Johannsons were allowed to visit their son every two weeks. Then it was every five weeks. Then, in 2010, they were not allowed to visit their child at all. In spite of testimony from friends, family, and social workers that young Domenic was being properly cared for by his parents, in 2012 the government opted to terminate their parental rights and award custody of the boy to the state.

“How can anyone endure this kind of torture for so long, I don’t know," the Johansson's attorney, Ruby Harrold-Claesson, told HSLDA. "It’s unbearable to see how the pride of government officials is wrecking the lives of the Johanssons and others like them. These people have broken the law by taking this boy without justification and keeping him for three-and-a-half years. It’s uncivilized.”

“Sweden’s actions in this case are inexplicable,” said Michael Farris, a human rights attorney and the chairman of HSLDA. “The taking of this child for homeschooling and while the family was moving out of the country is an egregious violation of basic human rights and international law standards. Sweden is a party to numerous treaties that require them to respect the rights of parents to make education decisions and to leave the country if they choose. This is a dangerous precedent if permitted to stand.”

The Johanssons have one last chance to regain custody of their son: they're appealing to the Supreme Court of Sweden. HSLDA is organizing a letter-writing campaign and urging homeschoolers around the world to ask the court to reunite Domenic with his parents; they have set up a Facebook page for people to show support.

“The strain of the forced separation is inflicting unbearable pain and pressure on the family who still live on the same island just miles from where their son lives—yet they are not permitted to have any contact with him whatsoever,” HSLDA said in a statement. Harrold-Claesson pointed out that any email or fax received by the court must be registered and made public.

"Let them know that the world is watching," she said.



#10 jnjn

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:06 PM

could it be possible that this has more to do with them leaving the country with the child than the home schooling itself? 

even more fucked up is how this poor kid ends up in gov't custody instead of another family member AND the parents lose all rights.  seriously, in fucking sweden of all places?!



#11 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:16 PM

Not according to the information we have. Why not Sweden?



#12 Depends

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:22 PM

Why are we worried about homeschool in Sweden or Germany?



#13 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:24 PM

Who are these "we" people that are worried you're referring to?



#14 MeOmYo

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:27 PM

great, now I hate Sweden too.  thanks TASB.



#15 deadheadskier

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:28 PM

I feel like a lot of important information is missing from the article.  In general I have no problem with homeschooling but feel it should be regulated a lot more.  Sorry most adults are not qualified to teach most high school level courses even though they think they are.

 

Agreed.  I think parents should have to meet minimum requirements in terms of their own educational background.   Many states require teachers to have completed a Master's Degree within five years of receiving their teaching license.  I think requiring at least a Bachelors degree in Education should be required for home schooling.  If someone lacks minimum qualifications to be employable in a school, why should they be allowed to teach at home?

 

Regulated more? They still have to be state tested. And apparently, these parents are actually more than qualified to teach teh courses. They're, on average, out performing state sponsored schools.

 

http://www.ericdiges...2000-3/home.htm

 

The Scholastic Achievement of Home School Students. ERIC/AE Digest.

Summarizing demographic characteristics and achievement results for 20,760 home school students, the largest study of home schooling conducted to date (Rudner,1999a) was released in Spring 1999 with a great deal of press coverage. This Digest highlights some of the findings, identifies limitations of the study, and presents several conclusions.

 

MAJOR FINDINGS - ACHIEVEMENT
Almost 25% of home school students were enrolled one or more grades above their age-level peers in public and private schools.

Home school student achievement test scores were exceptionally high. The median scores for every subtest at every grade (typically in the 70th to 80th percentile) were well above those of public and Catholic/Private school students.

On average, home school students in grades 1 to 4 performed one grade level above their age-level public/private school peers on achievement tests.

Students who had been home schooled their entire academic life had higher scholastic achievement test scores than students who had also attended other educational programs.

There were no meaningful differences in achievement by gender, whether the student was enrolled in a full-service curriculum, or whether a parent held a state issued teaching certificate.

 

 

Recent statistics from The College Board and the American College Testing Program (ACT) indicate that home schoolers are exceeding the national average test scores on both the SAT and the ACT college entrance exams. In 1999, the 2219 students who identified themselves as home schooled students on the SAT test, scored an average of 1083 (verbal 548, math 535), 67 points above the national average of 1016. A perfect SAT score is 1600. Also in 1999, 3616 home school students taking the ACT scored an average of 22.7, compared to the national average of 21, a perfect score being 36.
http://hslda.org/doc...02/00000229.asp

 

I don't think such stats should be fully interpreted as Home Schooling being better than Public/Private schooling.  If a parent is going to forego working and dedicate their time to teaching their children at home, they obviously care deeply about their children receiving a good education.  So, it's of little surprise that these kids score higher on standardized testing.  

 

Many kids who score poorly on such tests in a public school setting likely do so in part because their parents aren't doing their jobs at home at making sure their kids are doing their homework.  If a parent doesn't give a shit enough about contributing their let's say 10% roll in their kids formal education in a public schooling scenario, what would happen if these parents became responsible for 100% of their kids learning?  The kids would perform even worse. 

 

The situation in Sweden, that's complete horseshit.  



#16 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:33 PM

If a parent doesn't give a shit enough about contributing their let's say 10% roll in their kids formal education in a public schooling scenario, what would happen if these parents became responsible for 100% of their kids learning?  The kids would perform even worse.

 

can you back that up?



#17 hippieskichick

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:34 PM

Agreed.  I think parents should have to meet minimum requirements in terms of their own educational background.   Many states require teachers to have completed a Master's Degree within five years of receiving their teaching license.  I think requiring at least a Bachelors degree in Education should be required for home schooling.  If someone lacks minimum qualifications to be employable in a school, why should they be allowed to teach at home?

 

This. Although not very realistic, expecting a parent to have a degree, it's a completely valid point - if one person does, so should the other. Fair.

 

And knowing several people, in several states, I've heard more than enough stories about the state exams. Worthless, IMHO. The curriculum suffers greatly by having to ensure all the state points have been met, and teachers aren't allowed the time or freedom to properly teach how or what they want.



#18 Depends

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:34 PM

Who are these "we" people that are worried you're referring to?

OK, why are YOU worried about homeschooling in sweden and germany, and why do you post it in a way that it seems like an american issue?



#19 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:39 PM

Agreed.  I think parents should have to meet minimum requirements in terms of their own educational background.   Many states require teachers to have completed a Master's Degree within five years of receiving their teaching license.  I think requiring at least a Bachelors degree in Education should be required for home schooling.  If someone lacks minimum qualifications to be employable in a school, why should they be allowed to teach at home?

 

Because it is a free country? And the results dont really indicate you have a viable argument to force people to reach a certain criteria to homeschool their children.



#20 concert andy

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:41 PM

i find it appalling that a child would be taken from their parents & put into foster care over home schooling.  unless of course there's more to this story that we're not seeing right now.

 

I agree 100%.

 

no, it shouldn't be outlawed.

 

While I agree it should not be outlawed.  I think kids should go to school.

 

The social skills acquired by attending school every day is more valuable than people think.

 

 

We "had" friends who decided to home school their daughter.  When they were around, they would not let there daughter out of their site.  We would always joke that she was going to grow up and rebel big time because of how close her parents kept a watchful eye on her.

 

For example, if she even left the moms eye sight (in a park playing with other kids and parents present), she would freak out and yell at her daughter.

 

I asked friends what they thought, first response, do you still want them to be friends?  Which is what happened.  We told them they should relax and let their kid be a kid.

 

 

 

 

I guess my point is, I worry parents are home schooling because they are afraid of what "could" happen, instead of being involved helping them over come those fears.



#21 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:42 PM

OK, why are YOU worried about homeschooling in sweden and germany, and why do you post it in a way that it seems like an american issue?

 

 

I'm not. I didn't. I asked a question.



#22 jnjn

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:43 PM

Not according to the information we have. Why not Sweden?

 

banning home schooling & physically removing children from their parents because they've been home schooled sounds like something that would go down in a third world nation, not what i would consider a more liberal-minded & westernized nation like sweden



#23 deadheadskier

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:44 PM

can you back that up?

 

Sure, it's called common sense and reasonable assumption.  

 

If a parent isn't going to give a shit about contributing their 10% part towards a child's education, what do you think would happen if they become responsible for 100%? They're going to find the "Teaching Jesus" and actually start giving a shit?



#24 Depends

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:46 PM

Why is the state so threatened by homeschooling? Homeschooled children out perform state sponsored indoctrination across the board. Did I justanswer my own question?

Which state?

 

I don't think the US is afraid of homeschooling at all.  What happens in Sweden and Germany is their issue.

 

I know plenty of home school'd kids.  For the most part, they are fine, intelligent kids.  And they have social skills on par with their peers.



#25 Depends

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:51 PM

I'm not familiar with Sweden's ban on homeschool.  Is it just since 2010?   What made them change? (i have zero idea)

 

I think there is a lot more to this story....



#26 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:53 PM

I agree 100%.

 

 

While I agree it should not be outlawed.  I think kids should go to school.

 

The social skills acquired by attending school every day is more valuable than people think.

 

 

We "had" friends who decided to home school their daughter.  When they were around, they would not let there daughter out of their site.  We would always joke that she was going to grow up and rebel big time because of how close her parents kept a watchful eye on her.

 

For example, if she even left the moms eye sight (in a park playing with other kids and parents present), she would freak out and yell at her daughter.

 

I asked friends what they thought, first response, do you still want them to be friends?  Which is what happened.  We told them they should relax and let their kid be a kid.

 

 

 

 

I guess my point is, I worry parents are home schooling because they are afraid of what "could" happen, instead of being involved helping them over come those fears.

 

 

In a lot of cases, homeschooling happens in groups.One parent will teach certain subjects for a few children, while another will teach other subjects. There are cases of this, but I don't think that it necessarily is indicative of the overall picture of homeschooling.



#27 hippieskichick

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:54 PM

I agree 100%.

 

 

While I agree it should not be outlawed.  I think kids should go to school.

 

The social skills acquired by attending school every day is more valuable than people think.

 

 

We "had" friends who decided to home school their daughter.  When they were around, they would not let there daughter out of their site.  We would always joke that she was going to grow up and rebel big time because of how close her parents kept a watchful eye on her.

 

For example, if she even left the moms eye sight (in a park playing with other kids and parents present), she would freak out and yell at her daughter.

 

I asked friends what they thought, first response, do you still want them to be friends?  Which is what happened.  We told them they should relax and let their kid be a kid.

 

 

 

 

I guess my point is, I worry parents are home schooling because they are afraid of what "could" happen, instead of being involved helping them over come those fears.

 

 

Many parents who choose to homeschool want to avoid bully problems, crime, etc etc - understandable. However, I fully believe that kids NEED shitty experience, and problems and trials as they grow up. Yes, they NEED interactions with kids not like them. Do we, as humans, not learn the best lessons from the trials in our lives?

 

One of my nephews is homeschooled, and the kid doesn't have a chance. First off, my bro and his wife are psycho religious zealots, and never allowed him to speak to other kids. He's 22(?) now, and he's a freakazoid. Doesn't know how to communicate with other people, and if you try to make chit chat, all he talks about is finding a wife. That's his divine destiny, find a wife. So so sad.



#28 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:57 PM

Sure, it's called common sense and reasonable assumption.  

 

If a parent isn't going to give a shit about contributing their 10% part towards a child's education, what do you think would happen if they become responsible for 100%? They're going to find the "Teaching Jesus" and actually start giving a shit?

 

Well, you could be right, but I think making the case that the reason for failing public school stats isn't necessarily 100% the parents fault. it could be, but we dont have any data to support it. Also, I'm of the thought that when people are held responsible for things, they tend to pay more attention to it than when the responsibility is placed elsewhere.

 

That certainly wouldn't cover everyone, there will still be those who dont care enough to put the effort in. But I dont think it can be a wholesale effect.



#29 Depends

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:59 PM

Many parents who choose to homeschool want to avoid bully problems, crime, etc etc - understandable. However, I fully believe that kids NEED shitty experience, and problems and trials as they grow up. Yes, they NEED interactions with kids not like them. Do we, as humans, not learn the best lessons from the trials in our lives?

 

One of my nephews is homeschooled, and the kid doesn't have a chance. First off, my bro and his wife are psycho religious zealots, and never allowed him to speak to other kids. He's 22(?) now, and he's a freakazoid. Doesn't know how to communicate with other people, and if you try to make chit chat, all he talks about is finding a wife. That's his divine destiny, find a wife. So so sad.

prolly would have been that way if he went to regular school.

 

My son has autism.  I want him to interact with a large group of people.  



#30 deadheadskier

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:59 PM

Which state?

 

I don't think the US is afraid of homeschooling at all.  What happens in Sweden and Germany is their issue.

 

I know plenty of home school'd kids.  For the most part, they are fine, intelligent kids.  And they have social skills on par with their peers.

 

The US certainly doesn't.  Last I read, there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 million kids being home schooled in the US.  

 

As for my experience with home schooled kids, I'd say it's 50/50 about whether they were intelligent and well adjusted or not.  When I lived in West Virginia and Western Maryland, I employed a HUGE amount of young people who were being or graduated from home schooling.  If I had to guess, somewhere in the neighborhood of 25% of the people who worked for me had some sort of home schooling background.  Given that these were very small communities, I often employed their parents too.  There were a multitude of reasons that home schooling was so prevalent there.  Yes, the public schools were not so great, so there was that.  These were also extremely rural areas.  Some parents didn't want their kids to have to spend 2 to 3.5 hours a day on a bus just to get to school.  

 

Ultimately, my observation was that the kids who were intelligent and had done well in school, whether home schooled or not, did so because of the quality of parenting they received.  



#31 Depends

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 04:06 PM

http://en.wikipedia...._and_statistics

 

about 2.5 million.  



#32 concert andy

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 04:09 PM

Many parents who choose to homeschool want to avoid bully problems, crime, etc etc - understandable. However, I fully believe that kids NEED shitty experience, and problems and trials as they grow up. Yes, they NEED interactions with kids not like them. Do we, as humans, not learn the best lessons from the trials in our lives?

 

One of my nephews is homeschooled, and the kid doesn't have a chance. First off, my bro and his wife are psycho religious zealots, and never allowed him to speak to other kids. He's 22(?) now, and he's a freakazoid. Doesn't know how to communicate with other people, and if you try to make chit chat, all he talks about is finding a wife. That's his divine destiny, find a wife. So so sad.

 

This is the point I was trying to make.

 

TASB, of course it is not the norm, but when someone is home schooled alone by their parents.  I think that will lead to trouble for the kid later in life.  

 

 

Ever see "Six Feet Under".  Rain Wilson had a small part for a season or two.

 

When one of the people on the show meet him, the Rain's character tells him he was home schooled.  To which the guy responds, you seem home schooled.

 

Social awkwardness while similar in some respects, it is different from autism.  Autism is a whole different coversation.



#33 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 04:26 PM

Which state?

 

I don't think the US is afraid of homeschooling at all.  What happens in Sweden and Germany is their issue.

 

I know plenty of home school'd kids.  For the most part, they are fine, intelligent kids.  And they have social skills on par with their peers.

 

state  (stamacr.gift)

n.
1. A condition or mode of being, as with regard to circumstances: a state of confusion.
2. A condition of being in a stage or form, as of structure, growth, or development: the fetal state.
3. A mental or emotional condition: in a manic state.
4. Informal A condition of excitement or distress.
5. Physics The condition of a physical system with regard to phase, form, composition, or structure: Ice is the solid state of water.
6. Social position or rank.
7. Ceremony; pomp: foreign leaders dining in state at the White House.
8.
a. The supreme public power within a sovereign political entity.
b. The sphere of supreme civil power within a given polity: matters of state.
9. A specific mode of government: the socialist state.
10. : the states of Eastern Europe.
11. One of the more or less internally autonomous territorial and political units composing a federation under a sovereign government: the 48 contiguous states of the Union.
adj.
1. Of or relating to a body politic or to an internally autonomous territorial or political unit constituting a federation under one government: a monarch dealing with state matters; the department that handles state security.
2. Owned and operated by a state: state universities.

 

 

The State on its overall. Not one of the united states.



#34 Uncle Coulro

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 04:27 PM

It's always been about thought control.

 

"Education is a regulation of the process of coming to share in the social consciousness; and that the adjustment of individual activity on the basis of this social consciousness is the only sure method of social reconstruction."

-- John Dewey



#35 concert andy

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 04:30 PM

Which state?

 

I don't think the US is afraid of homeschooling at all.  What happens in Sweden and Germany is their issue.

 

I know plenty of home school'd kids.  For the most part, they are fine, intelligent kids.  And they have social skills on par with their peers.

 

I was speaking from lack of experience on actually knowing home schooled children, because I do not think I know any personally.



#36 jnjn

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 04:44 PM

it's unfortunate that home schooling gets such a bad rap sometimes...i'm sure there are negative turnouts (as with anything), but not every parent is a religious nut or helicopter type & as far as the child becoming socially well adjusted there's always after school centers & sport leagues where the child could interact with others their age (assuming they don't live in the middle of nowhere).



#37 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 04:47 PM

it's unfortunate that home schooling gets such a bad rap sometimes...i'm sure there are negative turnouts (as with anything), but not every parent is a religious nut or helicopter type & as far as the child becoming socially well adjusted there's always after school centers & sport leagues where the child could interact with others their age (assuming they don't live in the middle of nowhere).

 

Also, not all homeschooling is done as a single child/single or double parent layout. Many communities share in the responsibility for teaching the children. Such as one parent teaches several children a few subjects and then another will provide different ones.



#38 china cat

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:11 PM

I agree 100%.

 

 

While I agree it should not be outlawed.  I think kids should go to school.

 

The social skills acquired by attending school every day is more valuable than people think.

 

 

We "had" friends who decided to home school their daughter.  When they were around, they would not let there daughter out of their site.  We would always joke that she was going to grow up and rebel big time because of how close her parents kept a watchful eye on her.

 

For example, if she even left the moms eye sight (in a park playing with other kids and parents present), she would freak out and yell at her daughter.

 

I asked friends what they thought, first response, do you still want them to be friends?  Which is what happened.  We told them they should relax and let their kid be a kid.

 

 

 

 

I guess my point is, I worry parents are home schooling because they are afraid of what "could" happen, instead of being involved helping them over come those fears.

 

I disagree with this point. There are too many stories of bullying, social comparison, popularity contests, outcasts, social pressures... sexual pressures, media influences, unhealthy desires to fit in....  The "socialization" argument has never been a reason to support compulsory education (to me)

 

home-schooled kids often have brothers and sisters, they are often involved with other home-schooled kids, they join sports, activities. There are plenty of ways to effectively socialize kids (in ways far more advantageous then sending them into the social minefield of public school)



#39 TEO

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:13 PM

"We don't need no education 
We don't need no thought control 
No dark sarcasm in the classroom 
Teachers leave them kids alone 
Hey teacher leave them kids alone 
All in all it's just another brick in the wall 
All in all you're just another brick in the wall "


#40 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:14 PM

Do you think public school helps or hinders in the development of an individual?



#41 concert andy

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:21 PM

I disagree with this point. There are too many stories of bullying, social comparison, popularity contests, outcasts, social pressures... sexual pressures, media influences, unhealthy desires to fit in....  The "socialization" argument has never been a reason to support compulsory education (to me)

 

home-schooled kids often have brothers and sisters, they are often involved with other home-schooled kids, they join sports, activities. There are plenty of ways to effectively socialize kids (in ways far more advantageous then sending them into the social minefield of public school)

 

 

Are we to teach our kids to be scared?  Not to go to school because the bad people are there? 

 

Bullying is a part of life.  I am a big guy (6 220) and I was bullied in before going to college (6 150 when I graduated).  I was a math geek, and part of the chess club.  It happens.  

 

When I was 6 some bully stole my big wheel.  My mom told me to go get it back and stand up to the kid.  I did, and got my big wheel back.  Later was friends with this kid.

 

 

You know I mentioned this later?  (also, I am an only child, and my example was of an only child).  

 

I was speaking from lack of experience on actually knowing home schooled children, because I do not think I know any personally.

 

 

Also, by that logic, the bully wins.

 

 

 

Sports is one of the best socializing and discipline creating activities for all youth.



#42 Depends

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:40 PM

state  (stamacr.gift)
n.
1. A condition or mode of being, as with regard to circumstances: a state of confusion.
2. A condition of being in a stage or form, as of structure, growth, or development: the fetal state.
3. A mental or emotional condition: in a manic state.
4. Informal A condition of excitement or distress.
5. Physics The condition of a physical system with regard to phase, form, composition, or structure: Ice is the solid state of water.
6. Social position or rank.
7. Ceremony; pomp: foreign leaders dining in state at the White House.
8.
a. The supreme public power within a sovereign political entity.
b. The sphere of supreme civil power within a given polity: matters of state.
9. A specific mode of government: the socialist state.
10. : the states of Eastern Europe.
11. One of the more or less internally autonomous territorial and political units composing a federation under a sovereign government: the 48 contiguous states of the Union.
adj.
1. Of or relating to a body politic or to an internally autonomous territorial or political unit constituting a federation under one government: a monarch dealing with state matters; the department that handles state security.
2. Owned and operated by a state: state universities.

 

 

The State on its overall. Not one of the united states.

I guess that is my question.  Which State?  World governments in general?  Many many governments have no problem what so ever with home schooling.  Sweden/Germany (and others?)  I'm not sure they are afraid, but something changed in 2010 for Sweden.   What was it?  
My point being, that the tone of your post (IMO) made it sound like the US Gov't was afraid of homeschooling. With 2.5 million homeschooled kids, I would say that is far from the truth.



#43 concert andy

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:08 PM

I guess that is my question.  Which State?  World governments in general?  Many many governments have no problem what so ever with home schooling.  Sweden/Germany (and others?)  I'm not sure they are afraid, but something changed in 2010 for Sweden.   What was it?  
My point being, that the tone of your post (IMO) made it sound like the US Gov't was afraid of homeschooling. With 2.5 million homeschooled kids, I would say that is far from the truth.

 

 

I would not say it was so cut and dry.

 

The government wants a smarter better educated generation for better paying jobs and more tax revenue.

 

But they have no money now to improve education experience, conditions, or curriculum etc...

 

I think the government is caught by its own short comings on this subject.



#44 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:25 PM

I guess that is my question.  Which State?  World governments in general?  Many many governments have no problem what so ever with home schooling.  Sweden/Germany (and others?)  I'm not sure they are afraid, but something changed in 2010 for Sweden.   What was it?  
My point being, that the tone of your post (IMO) made it sound like the US Gov't was afraid of homeschooling. With 2.5 million homeschooled kids, I would say that is far from the truth.

 

Well, it appears that Sweden is the one that has banned homeschooling. You might be able to figure it out from there. What changedd? The law changed. yes, yes, the "tone" of my post. :lmao: Good grief. I never indicated anything about the US government. At all. Period. Zip. Zilch. Zero. Nadda. Nathan. Nothing.

 

Jeebus on crutches.



#45 Depends

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:37 PM

Should the US be more like European countries such as Sweden?

 

 

 

Why is the state so threatened by homeschooling? Homeschooled children out perform state sponsored indoctrination across the board. Did I justanswer my own question?

?



#46 china cat

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:46 PM

Are we to teach our kids to be scared?  Not to go to school because the bad people are there? 

 

Bullying is a part of life.  I am a big guy (6 220) and I was bullied in before going to college (6 150 when I graduated).  I was a math geek, and part of the chess club.  It happens.  

 

When I was 6 some bully stole my big wheel.  My mom told me to go get it back and stand up to the kid.  I did, and got my big wheel back.  Later was friends with this kid.

 

 

You know I mentioned this later?  (also, I am an only child, and my example was of an only child).  

 

 

 

Also, by that logic, the bully wins.

 

 

 

Sports is one of the best socializing and discipline creating activities for all youth.

 

no, it is an unfortunate part of some people's lives and it does tremendous harm. And, of course I would remove my child from its influence if at all possible.

 

By that logic, should we show them images of war, sex, violence, domestic abuse because these are all part of life? My job as a parent is to protect the spirit and well-being of my child, not introduce them to experiences that harm their spirit and well-being.

 

Teaching socialization is teaching manners, kindness, social responsibility, communication skills, how to get along with others... not throwing them to the wolves.

 

We'll agree to disagree.



#47 concert andy

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:06 PM

no, it is an unfortunate part of some people's lives and it does tremendous harm. And, of course I would remove my child from its influence if at all possible.

 

Of course it is unfortunate, but to keep your kid out of school for fear of this, is just being scared in my opinion.  If they get bullied and it goes to far, then by all means take your kid out of school and home school them.

 

 

By that logic, should we show them images of war, sex, violence, domestic abuse because these are all part of life? My job as a parent is to protect the spirit and well-being of my child, not introduce them to experiences that harm their spirit and well-being.

 

Huh?

 

That is apples to oranges, not sure it is the same thing.

 

I said that taking the kid out of school the bully wins.  Even if you never sent them to school.  The bully won.  If you do send them to school and take them out, the bully wins again.  May be that is wrong, but if you run away, the bully feels empowered to do it again.  Being afraid of a bully, the bully wins.  Because the bully got the result they wanted.

 

Bullys are bad, M'kay, but we should teach our kids that there are bad people in the world, and a bully is on the path to being a bad person.  That love and kindness is the way to go, and eventually if forced to, stand up for yourself.  Standing up for yourself breeds respect and confidence.

 

You mention war sex and violence images?  HUH?  Please explain how that anology is the same thing.

For the record:  Pulling kids out of school (IMO) the bully wins = removal of images that are bad because it may be harmful to children?

 

I thought the job of a parent was to provide a better life for their kids then their own.

 

So are you saying, sending kids to school is introducing them to experiences that harm their spirit and well-being.  If so, we will never agree on this subject.  

 

Teaching socialization is teaching manners, kindness, social responsibility, communication skills, how to get along with others... not throwing them to the wolves.

 

We'll agree to disagree.

 

 

I agree with everything except throwing them to the wolves.  Sometimes, we will be in harms way no matter how safe we try to be.



#48 concert andy

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:10 PM

Being bullied is part of growing up.

 

The severity is the nuance here.



#49 Depends

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:28 PM

Unfortunately, being bullied is part of growing up.  But it doesn't have to be. And there is a line that some kids can handle, and some kids can't.  I give the hundreds of bullied kids suicides per year as evidence.

 

Bullying has become a lot worse because a bully can now attack you via computer. Bullying today is not just taking some kids lunch money. 



#50 concert andy

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:57 PM

Unfortunately, being bullied is part of growing up.  But it doesn't have to be. And there is a line that some kids can handle, and some kids can't.  I give the hundreds of bullied kids suicides per year as evidence.

 

Bullying has become a lot worse because a bully can now attack you via computer. Bullying today is not just taking some kids lunch money. 

 

Agreed.

 

It is different now a days, but I just think you send kids to school and if something bad happens you act accordingly.  Talk to your kid and ask them what they want.  That will usually be the best thing for them.