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OK, Boardies. Convince me that compulsory taxation isn't theft.


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#101 hoagie

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 09:42 PM

I keeP asking this, and i keep getting no answer

#102 melissaphish

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 09:44 PM

Curious what country anyone would be able to move to where they could avoid taxation?



#103 Depends

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 09:46 PM

How is it theft?

 

You choose to live in a country that levies taxes.  Correct?  Am I wrong in this?   That is the society we live in.  You have representation, based on the society's rules.  You don't agree with this season's crop of representatives?  Who's problem is that?

The income tax is levied to pay for everything from roads to wars.  You may not agree with what it is being spent on in some instances, but YOU don't have a say, you rep does.

 

So yes.  The answer is it is not theft.  At most it is a charge for living in this society.  Much like a country club.  If you don't want to pay the dues, you are free to leave.

It is not theft when you are charged for a dinner at a restaurant, or a ticket for a movie.  You know, fully that if you work in this country, you will have to pay an income tax. You choose to work in this country.

 

It would be theft, as defined by you, if you were forced to stay.  



#104 TEO

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 09:57 PM

No INCOME taxes in these countries:

 

Monaco
Kuwait
Bermuda
U.A.E.
Andorra
British Virgin Islands
Qatar
Bahamas
Oman
Brunei
Cayman Islands
Anguilla
Maldives
Turks and Caicos
Vanuatu



#105 TEO

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 09:58 PM

How is it theft?

 

You choose to live in a country that levies taxes.  Correct?  Am I wrong in this?   That is the society we live in.  You have representation, based on the society's rules.  You don't agree with this season's crop of representatives?  Who's problem is that?

The income tax is levied to pay for everything from roads to wars.  You may not agree with what it is being spent on in some instances, but YOU don't have a say, you rep does.

 

So yes.  The answer is it is not theft.  At most it is a charge for living in this society.  Much like a country club.  If you don't want to pay the dues, you are free to leave.

It is not theft when you are charged for a dinner at a restaurant, or a ticket for a movie.  You know, fully that if you work in this country, you will have to pay an income tax. You choose to work in this country.

 

It would be theft, as defined by you, if you were forced to stay.  

 

 

Should we call it fiscal rape instead?



#106 Tim the Beek

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:02 PM

I'm fond of everyone in this thread, so this ain't personal, but from my perspective, "If you don't like it, leave," really isn't an acceptable response to someone who has objections to being coerced, by threat of force, to contributing to things which are in conflict with his personal code.

TtB has this little dream of, someday, having the right group of people and the right amount of land that we can get by together by individually making just under the amount necessary to have to pay taxes. :)



#107 Depends

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:08 PM

I'm fond of everyone in this thread, so this ain't personal, but from my perspective, "If you don't like it, leave," really isn't an acceptable response to someone who has objections to being coerced, by threat of force, to contributing to things which are in conflict with his personal code.

TtB has this little dream of, someday, having the right group of people and the right amount of land that we can get by together by individually making just under the amount necessary to have to pay taxes. :)

Why is it not an acceptable response?

You CHOOSE to live in a society that taxes, correct?

You CHOOSE to earn money in that society.

You may have been born here, or moved here, but you don't have to stay here.  There has always been taxes here, whether land taxes, war levies, or income taxes.  

 

There is another choice.  If you don't like what your taxes pay for, get another rep.   That is the way our society works.   You are free to move to another country that does not have the same rules, or even start your own country.

 

If I lived in a neighborhood that I was robbed in every payday, I would move.



#108 TEO

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:08 PM

Depends, that was not meant to be a direct poke at your post although yours was quoted.



#109 Depends

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:09 PM

Should we call it fiscal rape instead?

I frown on using the words rape and cancer when not applied to rape and cancer.

 

But no. It is not fiscal rape.  It is paying your dues.  



#110 TEO

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:09 PM

Why is it not an acceptable response?

You CHOOSE to live in a society that taxes, correct?

You CHOOSE to earn money in that society.

You may have been born here, or moved here, but you don't have to stay here.  There has always been taxes here, whether land taxes, war levies, or income taxes.  

 

There is another choice.  If you don't like what your taxes pay for, get another rep.   That is the way our society works.   You are free to move to another country that does not have the same rules, or even start your own country.

 

If I lived in a neighborhood that I was robbed in every payday, I would move.

 

 

Unless one of us is a direct immigrant we may be living in this great nation based on familial and factors of deeper concern than the $.



#111 Depends

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:10 PM

Depends, that was not meant to be a direct poke at your post although yours was quoted.

I like direct pokes...  :bowl:



#112 TEO

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:10 PM

I frown on using the words rape and cancer when not applied to rape and cancer.

 

But no. It is not fiscal rape.  It is paying your dues.  

 

 

I can't agree with cumpulsory taxation being equated to dues.    What happens when you don't pay your dues?  You can't vote?  You can't get into the clubhouse?  There is no threat of loss of liberty.



#113 Depends

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:11 PM

Unless one of us is a direct immigrant we may be living in this great nation based on familial and factors of deeper concern than the $.

Which should factor into your decision whether you CHOOSE to stay and pay your dues.   



#114 Depends

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:15 PM

I'm fond of everyone in this thread, so this ain't personal, but from my perspective, "If you don't like it, leave," really isn't an acceptable response to someone who has objections to being coerced, by threat of force, to contributing to things which are in conflict with his personal code.

TtB has this little dream of, someday, having the right group of people and the right amount of land that we can get by together by individually making just under the amount necessary to have to pay taxes. :)

BTW.  I would never take any of this personal.  You (well not just you...) have a different opinion.  that is all.

'

Could not comprehend a world where everybody had the same opinion as me.

 

How could I deal with that many assholes?



#115 Depends

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:17 PM

I can't agree with cumpulsory taxation being equated to dues.    What happens when you don't pay your dues?  You can't vote?  You can't get into the clubhouse?  There is no threat of loss of liberty.

There certainly could be a loss of liberty.  The only difference is that the country club charges up front.

Say they gave you a bill at the end of the year.  And you decided not to pay it.  Theft of services. Jail. 



#116 TEO

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:19 PM

We currently have a pay as you go tax system.



#117 Depends

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:24 PM

How so?   I live in the US from Jan 1 2013 to December 31 2013.  My taxes are due April 15 2014, although I can defer some of that for 3 months.  

Some (<100%) estimated taxes would be due quarterly, right?  Kind of like withholding.  But that could be underestimated.  Or my withholding could maxed out, leaving me owing the gov't money on April 15.

 

I would think that there are many people that owe taxes at the end of the year.



#118 Depends

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:25 PM

But even so, comparing country club, if I worked for 3 months, and did not pay my estimated taxes, or I played golf for 3 months without paying the dues....



#119 TEO

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:38 PM

Underpayment penalties



#120 Tim the Beek

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:53 PM

How could I deal with that many assholes?

 

:mrgreen: <3



#121 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:59 PM

How is it theft?

 

You choose to live in a country that levies taxes.  Correct?  Am I wrong in this?   That is the society we live in.  You have representation, based on the society's rules.  You don't agree with this season's crop of representatives?  Who's problem is that?

The income tax is levied to pay for everything from roads to wars.  You may not agree with what it is being spent on in some instances, but YOU don't have a say, you rep does.

 

So yes.  The answer is it is not theft.  At most it is a charge for living in this society.  Much like a country club.  If you don't want to pay the dues, you are free to leave.

It is not theft when you are charged for a dinner at a restaurant, or a ticket for a movie.  You know, fully that if you work in this country, you will have to pay an income tax. You choose to work in this country.

 

It would be theft, as defined by you, if you were forced to stay.  

 

It is theft because it is not voluntarily taken, it is extracted through the use of coercion/force and violence. I do not choose to live in this country, I was born here. Even if I wanted to leave, I am not allowed to keep enough of the fruit of my labor to do so. Sure, I can take what I can carry and try to get into another country that also has compulsory taxation and a system by which those governments grant me the ability to stay. This isn't a "your country, my country" occurrence.

 

I've already made the case that re[presentation is a myth. Again even if 70% (which never happens) of the populations interests are being represented, 30% are not. So I guess in your world they too can fuck off. That seems to be the common theme in this. I dont see any convincing arguments that compulsory taxation is not theft. What I do see are a lot of people playing the force card of if you dont like it, you can fuck off and leave. Which is just another coercive measure on a supposed free society. 

 

 It's not an argument that compulsory taxation is not theft, it's an argument to say "this is our system. So if you dont like it move or shut up."



#122 Tim the Beek

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:00 PM

There are lots of people who don't pay income taxes.

 

Some because they don't make enough to be considered eligible to pay. Some because they have enough that they've structured things in such a way that they don't have to.

 

Should we tell all of them they have to leave? They're choosing to be here.



#123 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:01 PM

But even so, comparing country club, if I worked for 3 months, and did not pay my estimated taxes, or I played golf for 3 months without paying the dues....

 

you would not be thrown in jail and had your property confiscated (or both) for not paying dues at a country club. Apples and oranges analogy.



#124 Tim the Beek

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:04 PM

I can see taxes on sales of items that aren't necessary for survival...survival isn't a choice, and a tax on the labor people perform (and that's what income taxes are...by law, if you barter your time for something else of value, you're supposed to pay taxes on it) seems to me to be a tax on survival.

 

And one which we're coerced into by threat of force.



#125 Depends

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:51 PM

you would not be thrown in jail and had your property confiscated (or both) for not paying dues at a country club. Apples and oranges analogy.

That would be up to the country club as to whether they wanted to press charges, don't you think?



#126 Depends

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:59 PM

I am not saying that if you don't like it you can leave.  The question was "Why is taxation not theft."  My answer is it is not theft, because you choose to be here, you choose to work here.  The question has nothing to do with where you were born, the question has nothing to do with what you do with the fruits of your labors. The answer is you agreed when you started to earn money, that taxes would be paid.  Your choice.

 

Theft on the other hand is involuntary.  You have NO other choice.   I am answering the question as asked.  If you want to change the parameters to include whether you were born here or not, then ask a different question.

 

You have TRIED to make a case that there is no representation.  You did not make a case.   Again, for 200 years this country has elected leaders and representatives.  The rest of the country doesn't vote your way?  Then convince others to vote your way.  Democracy in action.  How else would 300 million people agree on ANYTHING? 



#127 Joker

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:05 AM

Depends for the win  (sadly that's not the first time I've said that today)

 

 

Like it or not

 

this is not Nam, there are rules.



#128 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:06 AM

 The answer is you agreed when you started to earn money, that taxes would be paid.  Your choice.

 

I agreed to no such thing. The taxes are taken. No one asked me whether i agree to the charges of survival in the world. So essentially, I'm"agreeing" to theft of my labor by "agreeing" to be alive. Interesting take, but it doesn't make it any less of a theft.

 

 

 

Theft on the other hand is involuntary.  You have NO other choice.   I am answering the question as asked.  If you want to change the parameters to include whether you were born here or not, then ask a different question.

 

Taxes are involuntary. Yes, if a robber broke into my home and tried to steal from me, I have the choice to fight back. Or acquire experts to help me find them and either get my goods back or exact justice (which is where a governing bodies role may come in...or not). The question as it is asked, is to provide a convincing argument that compulsory taxation is not theft, and so far, I've found your argument wanting. :lol:



#129 Depends

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:08 AM

There are lots of people who don't pay income taxes.

 

Some because they don't make enough to be considered eligible to pay. Some because they have enough that they've structured things in such a way that they don't have to.

 

Should we tell all of them they have to leave? They're choosing to be here.

They are not avoiding taxes, in the legal sense. 



#130 Depends

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:10 AM

I find the question wanting.   You are not forced to pay taxes.  You are required to pay taxes if you live or work here.  Thats the rules of this country club.  No one is being forced to live here. 

 

Again, I am answering the question as asked.  What a different answer?  Ask a different question.



#131 Depends

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:12 AM

I agreed to no such thing. The taxes are taken. No one asked me whether i agree to the charges of survival in the world. So essentially, I'm"agreeing" to theft of my labor by "agreeing" to be alive. Interesting take, but it doesn't make it any less of a theft.

 

 

 

 

Taxes are involuntary. Yes, if a robber broke into my home and tried to steal from me, I have the choice to fight back. Or acquire experts to help me find them and either get my goods back or exact justice (which is where a governing bodies role may come in...or not). The question as it is asked, is to provide a convincing argument that compulsory taxation is not theft, and so far, I've found your argument wanting. :lol:

I beg to differ that you did not agree.  Unless, you came out from under a rock, you should have known that if you accept employment, then you pay taxes.  Don't wanna pay ;em?  then earn below the minimum.  Easy peasy



#132 Depends

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:13 AM

Depends for the win  (sadly that's not the first time I've said that today)

 

 

Like it or not

 

this is not Nam, there are rules.

Where else did you say that?  (sadly no one's ever said that twice in one day)



#133 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:31 AM

I beg to differ that you did not agree.  Unless, you came out from under a rock, you should have known that if you accept employment, then you pay taxes.  Don't wanna pay ;em?  then earn below the minimum.  Easy peasy

 

So you agree it is theft.



#134 Depends

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:44 AM

No...   I choose to work in a country that demands taxes.  Just as I choose to live in a country where the supermarket charges for its goods.  They do not steal either.



#135 Depends

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:50 AM

Depends for the win  (sadly that's not the first time I've said that today)

 

<----  Dumbass just got that joke....    Senior moments now last 15 minutes....



#136 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:46 PM

I beg to differ that you did not agree.  Unless, you came out from under a rock, you should have known that if you accept employment, then you pay taxes.  Don't wanna pay ;em?  then earn below the minimum.  Easy peasy

 

What you're saying can be directly applied to other thieve. If you dont want to be robbed, live in a cardboard box and do not own anything. In other words, sacrifice your ambitions and life in order to avoid the thieves. It's just more rationalizing theft. It's not an argument that compulsory taxation is not theft.



#137 TEO

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:17 PM

No...   I choose to work in a country that demands taxes.  Just as I choose to live in a country where the supermarket charges for its goods.  They do not steal either.

 

If there were only one supermarket from which it was compulsory to purchase your goods, growing and or making your own not allowed?



#138 Depends

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:47 PM

What you're saying can be directly applied to other thieve. If you dont want to be robbed, live in a cardboard box and do not own anything. In other words, sacrifice your ambitions and life in order to avoid the thieves. It's just more rationalizing theft. It's not an argument that compulsory taxation is not theft.

No, I'm not saying that at all.  I am answering your question.  Taxation is nothing more than paying your rent.  Some businesses pay rent based on their sales,  some pay a flat fee.  You want to work in this country, then you pay your rent.

When you buy an item in NYS that costs $1.00, the actual cost of that item is $1.09 including the tax, correct?  (i'm guessing at the tax rate in NYS).  That is an understood agreement with the consumers of NY and NYS.  Is that considered theft in your view?



#139 concert andy

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:47 PM

Want to stop paying compulsory taxation? become self employed or contract worker and file your taxes on April 15th.



#140 Depends

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:50 PM

If there were only one supermarket from which it was compulsory to purchase your goods, growing and or making your own not allowed?

Apples meet oranges.   There is not only one supermarket.  You even listed a dozen or so countries that do not have an income tax.  In this example, you choose to go to this market, you choose to work in the US.  Whatever the reason, be it family, or familiarity, it is your choice.  Many, many people have fled their homelands simply because of taxation.



#141 TEO

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:09 PM

Want to stop paying compulsory taxation? become self employed or contract worker and file your taxes on April 15th.

 

 

Might need to check the under payment penalty system before believing such a statement to be truth.



#142 melissaphish

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:14 PM

I can see taxes on sales of items that aren't necessary for survival...survival isn't a choice, and a tax on the labor people perform (and that's what income taxes are...by law, if you barter your time for something else of value, you're supposed to pay taxes on it) seems to me to be a tax on survival.

 

I have a good friend who is a money manager and he advocates for the elimination of the income tax and the creation of a large, national sales tax. On non essentials of course. Its a very interesting idea.



#143 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:17 PM

No, I'm not saying that at all.  I am answering your question.  Taxation is nothing more than paying your rent.  Some businesses pay rent based on their sales,  some pay a flat fee.  You want to work in this country, then you pay your rent.

When you buy an item in NYS that costs $1.00, the actual cost of that item is $1.09 including the tax, correct?  (i'm guessing at the tax rate in NYS).  That is an understood agreement with the consumers of NY and NYS.  Is that considered theft in your view?

You're still not making an argument that compusory taxation is not theft. You're looking for ways, many in fact, to justify the theft, but in no way are you making the argument that it is not theft. Using all kinds of different terms for it...rent, country club dues, etc...all of which are not applicable.



#144 concert andy

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:24 PM

Might need to check the under payment penalty system before believing such a statement to be truth.

 

A 1040 will cover self employed.

 

Here it is:

 

http://www.irs.gov/B...uals-Tax-Center

 

What are My Self-Employed Tax Obligations?

As a self-employed individual, generally you are required to file an annual return and pay estimated tax quarterly.

 

 

 

Guess you would still have to pay quarterly.  But the point is, the government is not taking it out of your paycheck.



#145 Depends

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:27 PM

Ive made my case.

The elected officials of this country, a democratic republic, ushered in taxation.  When you take a job, or rather earn income in this country, it is a known fact that you pay taxes on that income.  The tax money may be used in ways you don't like, but that is not the question.  The tax itself was agreed upon by the people of the United States.  In our society, majority rules.  That is the way it works when you don't want chaos. 

 

Secondly your entire concept of your property, that is your money/earnings are made possible by a government that backs that money.  

 

I think that you are saying that YOU, the individual YOU has not consented to have taxes taken from you.  The problem with that line of thinking is that our country is not based on individual rule, but rather majority rule.  With some exceptions that SCOTUS rules on.  Since you choose to live/work in a country that is based on the concept of a democratic republic, then you abide by the rules put in place by the majority, or you work to change those rules, or you choose to live where the rules are different.

 

The people of the US have elected officials that imposed taxation.  Your beef is with the majority of the American People, not the tax collector.



#146 concert andy

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:27 PM

You're still not making an argument that compusory taxation is not theft. You're looking for ways, many in fact, to justify the theft, but in no way are you making the argument that it is not theft. Using all kinds of different terms for it...rent, country club dues, etc...all of which are not applicable.

 

Get your stinky but out of the USA you commie.

 

:lol:



#147 TEO

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:30 PM

A 1040 will cover self employed.

 

Here it is:

 

http://www.irs.gov/B...uals-Tax-Center

 

What are My Self-Employed Tax Obligations?

As a self-employed individual, generally you are required to file an annual return and pay estimated tax quarterly.

 

 

 

Guess you would still have to pay quarterly.  But the point is, the government is not taking it out of your paycheck.

 

 

What are the potential ramifications if you do not make such payments?



#148 concert andy

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:32 PM

What are the potential ramifications if you do not make such payments?

 

Minimal:

 

 

Penalty for Underpayment

What happens if you don’t pay enough, or don’t pay soon enough.

If you don’t pay enough estimated tax, or don’t pay on time, you’ll have to pay a penalty. It’s best to avoid this penalty, of course but you don’t have to lose sleep over it. The penalty is equivalent to nondeductible interest on the amount you underpaid, for the period of the underpayment. If you underpay only a small amount, or you correct the underpayment quickly, the penalty will be small.



#149 Tim the Beek

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:34 PM

I think part of what may be at issue here is that a couple/few of us lean more heavily on the idea of individual sovereignty/freedom than others do.

 

I understand what folks on the other side are saying, and where they're coming from. From a personal standpoint, though, taking people's labor by force is morally wrong. There are plenty of other things we do by societal compact which I also find to be morally wrong as well. You can argue that that's the price we pay for having some semblance of order, etc., but that only means (to me) that we're choosing the lesser of two evils, not that what's happening is right or good.



#150 seany

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:38 PM

TASB - Dude, are you still talking about this?  What part about elected representation and laws that have been drafted, amended to, and upheld under the Constitution don't you understand on this issue?  I don't necessarily agree with everything in there either, but I live here and deal with it. I don't agree with everyone's weak interpretation of the 2nd amendment which seemingly gives them the right to arm themselves to the teeth when they have no association with a "well-regulated militia" but I deal with it. I don't necessarily agree with everyone arming themselves and think it is bad for society as a whole, but I'm not looking to take people's guns away.  This country chose to collect taxes to fund services in a way that has been debated, defined into law, and upheld by the courts. You're asking us to tell us why it's not theft when you should be telling us why it is with any argument that would pass legal scrutiny.  You haven't. Get over it. SYPH :lol: