56 replies to this topic

[TheDHJ]

So I'm taking a class that deals with the anthropology of religion, witchcraft and magic. The discussion topic is how each of us would define of religion. My definition of religion contained music as one of the central tenets of my belief system or what have you. I cited "A Love Supreme" and "Love Devotion Surrender" as being deeply spiritual. I also alluded to being among others in certain musical instances where exploratory improvisation was prevalent, and feeling a sense that's very religious. Music is very spiritual for me...there's been times at shows where I find myself in meditations that run very deep. I received a very interesting, intelligent response that I'm not sure how to counter. 

 

 

 

 You said that “music can be an extremely religious experience” and while it can be, I don’t think it is intrinsically. Maybe you’re simply over generalizing. I’m not sure. Regardless, I don’t think crowds that together, are enthralled by music are having a religious experience. I can’t define “spiritual” experiences so I’ll just skip over that. Music can certainly invoke different emotions and surely there will be some (perhaps even many) individuals in a crowd who experience the same emotions, I don’t think those emotions are all necessarily religious. They are definitely emotional experiences, though, biochemical reactions to certain sounds. I don’t think it necessarily “puts them in touch with higher powers.”

 

 

Since this is a music community, I need that perspective. If this is supposed to be in P & R I apologize.

Am I alone in this feeling? I think I know how to respond, but I'm not sure. 

[hoagie]

Its odd they just want to "slip over" any spiritual discussion. Misic is deeply spiritual.

I feel a religion needs to have a central dogma or tradtional core teaching that can be used as a foundation for community building. Examples are the torah, bible, koran, 8-fold path, dharma...

[Kashmir]

Your teacher has never been to a Grateful Dead show. I'm sad for him/her.

I have definitely been spiritually moved by music, performances, drum circles, etc....

Shit!!! The spinners heard the voice of god through every note Jerry Garcia played. That's heavy!

[TheDHJ]

That's another participant, haven't heard from the prof yet. 

 

The Spinners!!! YES! Thanks Jen. Awesome example. 

[Kashmir]

Glad to help! I'm good for something

[Julius]

I'm with your teacher on this one. Religion is about belief and/or faith and/or in the case of some Eastern philosophies a spiritual way of life that transcends the living body. I don't see how you've made the case that music relates to any of those things.

 

Your personal reaction to a particular sensory input is just that.

[TheDHJ]

I feel that music embodies the transcending...

[gregoir]

Stop smoking so much weed.

[TheDHJ]

Screw you, Greg.  

[insolent cur]

lots of hedging in their response.  consider playing the "higher power" card.  i might note that the whole is greater than the sum of the individual parts, and that the symbiotic interaction between musicians and audience is often a critical element of the entire transcendental experience.

[Jabadoodle]

Interesting questions. Some of the problem seems to be about definitions and semantics.

People have religious experiences while listening to music. People also have religious experiences while doing other things like going church, hiking, meditating, or having sex. Usually we don't think of "going to church" or "walking in the mountains" or "having sex" as religions. These are activities that may be part of a religion.

Since "The discussion topic is how each of us would define of religion"  (I assume you meant "define our religion" or "define religion") I'd say your task is to find the words to describe what is the religion of people that find a "religious experience" in listening to music.

I don't have an answer for it that feels complete. I'm thinking along the lines of: My religion is one that I and many others share of trying to experience reality as it is. Just as some people go to church as an activity that brings them into touch with their beliefs, giving them a religious experience -- other people meditate or get into nature as activities that bring them closer to experiencing reality as it is. For me and many others, listening to music - especially live music -- can do that. 

(I didn't word that too carefully. Hope it makes some sense.)

[deadheadskier]

I'd play that asshole this and tell them to respect

 

[Tim the Beek]

While I'm not privy to the whole conversation, based on this:

 

 

You said that “music can be an extremely religious experience” and while it can be, I don’t think it is intrinsically.

 

I'd say that he's right, but that there's a disconnect between what the two of you wrote, and he's therefore wasting his time, and yours.

 

You said it can be. He said it isn't intrinsically.

Nothing is intrinsically religious, IMO. Whether an act is religious, on the personal level you're speaking of, relies upon the experiences and intentions of the participant(s).

What's a religious experience for the Phelps family and the rest of the Westboro Baptist congregation, wouldn't be for me.

 

Or maybe I'm missing something...

[insolent cur]

What's a religious experience for the Phelps family and the rest of the Westboro Baptist congregation, wouldn't be for me.

 

Or maybe I'm missing something...

 

you're missing the bond that comes with focusing familial hate on those who don't agree with you.  thankfully.

[moed_over]

If an alien came to this planet to observe human behavior, I guarantee it would see little difference between the activities of going to a concert and going to a religious event... I think your professor is not giving your argument enough weight.....

[hoagie]

If an alien came to this planet to observe human behavior, I guarantee it would see little difference between the activities of going to a concert and going to a religious event... I think your professor is not giving your argument enough weight.....

One major dofference is the intent of the concert-goer vs the intent if the religious event attendee. Most people dont go to concerts to worship or reach higher planes spiritually (tho i know our scene is an exception).

[nancykind]

you're missing the bond that comes with focusing familial hate on those who don't agree with you.  thankfully.

 

[TEO]

Religion = to reunite with that from which we came.

 

Music similar to prayer or meditation can be used to facilitate connection et al.

[Tim the Beek]

you're missing the bond that comes with focusing familial hate on those who don't agree with you.  thankfully.

 

Nah. The Beek family is all about the hate.

[gregoir]

Nah. The Beek family is all about the hate.

 

pretty obvious from the facebook name calling the other day

[Skrockypoint]

Your teacher has never been to a Grateful Dead show. I'm sad for him/her.

I have definitely been spiritually moved by music, performances, drum circles, etc....

Shit!!! The spinners heard the voice of god through every note Jerry Garcia played. That's heavy!

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Tim the Beek]

pretty obvious from the facebook name calling the other day

 

[PieDoh]

you reveal too much of yourself by trying to rationalize your interest in devil music. we all know that souls are lost in concerts and found in church.

we know that the greatest trick the devil ever perpetrated was convincing people he didn't exist...

those who are most conflicted in the devil worship spend the most timfe trying to rationalize their belief

And the song with the funky break and shit

[TheDHJ]

Hey guys. Again, this is a classmate and not a professor. Thanks for your words, keep em coming!

[china cat]

you gonna plagiarize everyone's ideas in your response, josh? I'm telling

 

 

what about something having to do with energy/vibration/unification and transcendence through sound wave? all is energy, musics allows opportunity to leave the symbolic realm of thought and be in, and experience through, the energetic pulse of the universe??

[PieDoh]

self actuated mystical transport...
zoning in to avoid zoning out

bridging auditory doors for those missing purposely

and you're paying for the opportunity!!!!!

astounding

[Kashmir]

I know of some bullshit hokey religions and music is more spiritual and universal than some of them

[insolent cur]

Nah. The Beek family is all about the hate.

 

[roo]

Josh you answered the question perfectly. You were asked How YOU would define religion. You gave your definition of religion. You were asked for your opinion and gave it.

[hoagie]

you gonna plagiarize everyone's ideas in your response, josh? I'm telling


what about something having to do with energy/vibration/unification and transcendence through sound wave? all is energy, musics allows opportunity to leave the symbolic realm of thought and be in, and experience through, the energetic pulse of the universe??

Thats all wonderfully spiritual and all, but has nothin to do with religion.

[insolent cur]

Josh you answered the question perfectly. You were asked How YOU would define religion. You gave your definition of religion. You were asked for your opinion and gave it.

 

ding ding...we have a winner!

[PieDoh]

coffee break is over....


back on your heads...

[moed_over]

One major dofference is the intent of the concert-goer vs the intent if the religious event attendee. Most people dont go to concerts to worship or reach higher planes spiritually (tho i know our scene is an exception).

 

I don't know man, our scene may not be that much of an exception. Rock and pop stars are treated pretty similarly to gods. Sure people don't pray to them, but idol worship is a religious activity as well.

 

Look at how kids act at a Beiber concert or how the Beatles were treated. 

[moed_over]

coffee break is over....


back on your heads...

[hoagie]

I don't know man, our scene may not be that much of an exception. Rock and pop stars are treated pretty similarly to gods. Sure people don't pray to them, but idol worship is a religious activity as well.

Look at how kids act at a Beiber concert or how the Beatles were treated.

Point taken, but i was refering to being spiritually lifted vs partying hard. I see yer point tho

[Geminimoon]

If your looking at music and religion don't forget to examine the southern Baptist.

[Kashmir]

If your looking at music and religion don't forget to examine the southern Baptist.

YES!!!
Can I get an AMEN!

[TheDHJ]

Gordon said, “music fills many of the holes that religion leaves open. The philosophical feeling behind religion, a religious upbringing, and even the notion of praying to God is very abstract. This transfers directly to my relationship with music. While you cannot necessarily touch music, you can feel it and it is something to believe in.”

“I’ve always compared my movements on stage to davening [praying],” he added. “To me, music has always served as that type of religious release.”

[TheDHJ]

Music is a medium in many different religions and religious ceremonies. However, music does not play an essential [part] in religion. For example, the Church of Christ in the Southeastern United States does not allow any music in church whatsoever.

 

Another response.

[Kuzsin]

...why not just reply with a link to footage of gathering of the juggalos.....

[Kashmir]

...why not just reply with a link to footage of gathering of the juggalos.....

They will never be the same afterwards.

I don't know.
maybe I'm an asshole but when I was on Dead tour I viewed the shows like going to church. And that how I described it to people that didn't understand when they asked what the hell I was doing. Now I didn't go as far to say the Jerry was some sort of deity, but he sure as hell was a Deacon, at least.

Yeah, maybe I AM an asshole.

[Dolla Jill]

i agree 100% that music is spiritual. Live music especially. i have always explained to people that going to music festivals for me is like going to church for them. congregating with like minded folks. don't let anyone tell ya different. i don't believe in any organized reglious groups. i belive in music!

[jnjn]

i don't think you can argue one way or the other unless you clearly define what religion means to you.

also, anything can be deeply spiritual to an individual, but that doesn't neccessarily make it religious.

[Sugar]

To define religion would require its deconstruction as it is truly the sum of many parts.
Each religion is based on a belief system, the values laid out in holy writings of one kind or another, open to all readers/followers interpretation.
Based on these values, accepted and expected behaviour of a religion's followers is inferred for right or wrong.
And all along the way, each religion incorporates celebration and prayer to solidify or reinforce belief systems while communing with other believers. Music is a vital means to this end. Whether it be singing in churches, temples or mosques, chanting Tibetan buddhists or whirling dervishes (the original spinners), music facilitates connection and lifts souls.
And as such, this last part of defining religion is what is being referred to in this discussion. If the writings are the songs that depict values that resonate; if those values suggest one be kind; if celebrating and communing with others involves listening and dancing to incredibly powerful vibrations - music, that is ... Well then, count me in! I am far more religious than I may have realized.
Forgive my ramblings, it's late on the other side, here in Asia and the beer may be going to my head!

[TheDHJ]

Where in Asia are you? What are you doing there?

[Julius]

Final tally:

 

Josh is wrong and I'm going to tell him so: 35%

Josh is wrong but I'm nice so I'll validate him: 45%

Josh is right: 20%

 

[TheDHJ]

I'd really prefer truthful perspective...that's why I posted this here.

[TakeAStepBack]

Josh you answered the question perfectly. You were asked How YOU would define religion. You gave your definition of religion. You were asked for your opinion and gave it.

 

This. The topic (according to your OP) is your definition of religion. IF the topic was how you describe your beliefs in accordance with the widely accepted definition of religion, then there is room to debate the mreits of your belief. But as it stands, your definition isn't really up for scrutiny.

 

All that said, your interpretation seems to be more of a spiritual understanding, rather than religion. As religion by definition doesn't entail a personal experience with soundscape (or any realm for that matter) since it's a belief widely held (by many) about the formation of the universe (generally alluding to a higher being). And the practices and beliefs that follow.

 

Even in that case, many of us here find a lot of "religion" in our music voyages. In fact, more than not, I'd be inclined to agree with your assessment. 

[unbroken_chain]

[TEO]

Is music a tenet of your religion as it follows along lines such as these?

 

 

1. Spirit, by whatever name, exists.

2. Spirit, although existing "out there," is found "in here," or revealed within to the open heart and mind.

3. Most of us don't realize this Spirit within, however, because we are living in a world of sin, separation, or duality-that is, we are living in a fallen, illusory, or fragmented state.

4. There is a way out of this fallen state (of sin or illusion or disharmony), there is a Path to our liberation.

5. If we follow this Path to its conclusion, the result is a Rebirth or Enlightenment, a direct experience of Spirit within and without, a Supreme Liberation, which

6. marks the end of sin and suffering, and

7. manifests in social action of mercy and compassion on behalf of all sentient beings.