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Hey, there! "What is unconditional love?"


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#51 sarah b.

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 05:46 PM

I suppose for anyone seeking to define uncconditional love (in their own head), having at least one definition of love would be a prerequisite.

Thank you all for your feedback. Lots of food for thought, here.

#52 Jabadoodle

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 06:45 PM

:thumbup:
 

I've got some pretty good chocolate here...
just sayin'.

 

I'd bring chocolate but China Cat got me to watch another documentary. Ruiner.



#53 hoagie

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 07:43 PM


Very much.



I like this too, Hoagie. I agree with Adam that forgiveness might never come for some acts, but think that there can be love in acceptance.




From a semantic standpoint...being able to love unconditionally may be dependent upon a
certain "condition" (self love) within. But just because the word used is "condition" -- I don't
think it's the same type of "condition" that has been meant in the rest of this thread.

What would be the dofference in one "condition" vs anothe "condition"? I mean, im not seeing mich difference. A condition is a circumstance that allows some progression of another thing...lovin urself before u can ever love another is a condition.

#54 TEO

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 07:51 PM

If one is in tune with their inherent nature one would love all including themselves, neither one is before the other.



#55 Jwheelz

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 08:57 PM

I don't think unconditional love means regardless of the conditions of the world at large or the person doing the loving. To me unconditional means you care for a person so deeply that even if you're upset with something somebody did you still treat them with love and compassion. To me it means if you're having a disagreement with somebody you're not acting like suddenly the person is no longer worthy of your care or concern.

 

I don't think it means if somebody treats you like you don't matter, or they hurt you intentionally, or they do something that totally changes your understanding of who the person is on a fundamental level, that you still have to feel the same way. I think it means that as long as that person is who they are on a fundamental level that the day-to-day frustrations and miscommunications that happen don't cause you to withhold your love from that person.

 

I take this a little further than most though in that I believe that loving someone is truly caring for a person, wanting them to have true happiness and support and doing everything you can for that person to help them achieve that.  I don't believe that is represented by a feeling, I think unconditional love is something evident in one's actions towards another person.

 

With a child it means you don't treat them poorly just because they aren't doing what you think they should do. It means even if you lost your patience that you don't hurt the child emotionally, make them feel unloved because of the fact that you don't approve of what they've done. It's a very hurtful thing to completely withhold your love from another person who depends on that love to feel like they have a place in the world.

 

As children grow into adults they should no longer be dependent on the love of their parents to make them feel okay, part of growing up I think it is learning to love yourself for who and what you are. At that point in life I think the parental love for a child changes, it should still be unconditional but the nature of how it's expressed shows up differently in the relationship. I think most parents whose child commits a heinous crime still love them in the sense of caring about their well-being, but I think that goes outside the reasonable expectations for unconditional love because a situation like that redefines the understanding of who that person fundamentally is.

 

Taking it in a different direction, in terms of romantic relationships, I think it's possible to love unconditionally. I don't think that means permanently, it is possible for feelings of love to go away but I think unconditional love in that context is once again expressed by actions rather than feelings.

 

I think in a romantic relationship a good example is having a fight. When I fight with a significant other I may be very upset, conflicted, or even angry about the situation that caused it. But that doesn't change the fact that I love and care for that person and want them to  have the ability to be happy. In fact I think with an argument some of the frustration comes from loving that person and finding that a conflict is interfering with that goal of happiness and contentment. But ultimately however that situation gets resolved, it's about being able to put aside petty things like resentments over losing an argument for example and moving forward with that love still being the primary motivation for being with that person.

 

What makes it challenging is I don't think unconditional love is something that should just happen. I guess what I mean by that is there are conditions that need to be met before that love can truly become unconditional. I know that sounds somewhat ridiculous but I mean that you have to know that person truly has the best intentions. You have to know someone intimately and trust that they are there with good intentions. When you truly trust a person then you can let go and give that love knowing it's not going to be used against you. Some people take advantage in a relationship of the fact that the other person loves them maybe on a deeper level than they themselves feel. I believe for true unconditional love to exist it must be mutual.

 

It gets tricky though because you sort of need to be able to love unconditionally from the get go in order to develop that type of connection so maybe it's a Catch-22.  Maybe either unconditional love in the truest sense doesn't really exist, or maybe we have to know each other without judgment and assuming the best about that person until they show otherwise. Overall though I actually think many people are much too quick to say I love you one another in any situation, they get wrapped up in the emotion and they don't really understand the truth of what they mean by "I love you." I think to be able to give love in the truest sense you really do need to understand what you mean by love.

 

This was also kind of a stream of consciousness exploration of the topic so I'm not sure how much sense that all makes, but I hope it helps :)



#56 manzanita stark

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 09:00 PM

I need to go along with it can't be put into words.

 

 

sort of a cop-out, but i see what you mean

 

Well, it's either that or write the entire story of my life. :lol:



#57 Jersey Thug

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 10:11 PM

 

 

i'd like to revise my earlier declaration:  i believe whole-heartedly in the idea of unconditional love as JWheels sees it.  :)

 

but to my way of thinking, that's just love.   

 

I don't think unconditional love means regardless of the conditions of the world at large or the person doing the loving. To me unconditional means you care for a person so deeply that even if you're upset with something somebody did you still treat them with love and compassion. To me it means if you're having a disagreement with somebody you're not acting like suddenly the person is no longer worthy of your care or concern.

 

I don't think it means if somebody treats you like you don't matter, or they hurt you intentionally, or they do something that totally changes your understanding of who the person is on a fundamental level, that you still have to feel the same way. I think it means that as long as that person is who they are on a fundamental level that the day-to-day frustrations and miscommunications that happen don't cause you to withhold your love from that person.

 

I take this a little further than most though in that I believe that loving someone is truly caring for a person, wanting them to have true happiness and support and doing everything you can for that person to help them achieve that.  I don't believe that is represented by a feeling, I think unconditional love is something evident in one's actions towards another person.

 

With a child it means you don't treat them poorly just because they aren't doing what you think they should do. It means even if you lost your patience that you don't hurt the child emotionally, make them feel unloved because of the fact that you don't approve of what they've done. It's a very hurtful thing to completely withhold your love from another person who depends on that love to feel like they have a place in the world.

 

As children grow into adults they should no longer be dependent on the love of their parents to make them feel okay, part of growing up I think it is learning to love yourself for who and what you are. At that point in life I think the parental love for a child changes, it should still be unconditional but the nature of how it's expressed shows up differently in the relationship. I think most parents whose child commits a heinous crime still love them in the sense of caring about their well-being, but I think that goes outside the reasonable expectations for unconditional love because a situation like that redefines the understanding of who that person fundamentally is.

 

Taking it in a different direction, in terms of romantic relationships, I think it's possible to love unconditionally. I don't think that means permanently, it is possible for feelings of love to go away but I think unconditional love in that context is once again expressed by actions rather than feelings.

 

I think in a romantic relationship a good example is having a fight. When I fight with a significant other I may be very upset, conflicted, or even angry about the situation that caused it. But that doesn't change the fact that I love and care for that person and want them to  have the ability to be happy. In fact I think with an argument some of the frustration comes from loving that person and finding that a conflict is interfering with that goal of happiness and contentment. But ultimately however that situation gets resolved, it's about being able to put aside petty things like resentments over losing an argument for example and moving forward with that love still being the primary motivation for being with that person.

 

What makes it challenging is I don't think unconditional love is something that should just happen. I guess what I mean by that is there are conditions that need to be met before that love can truly become unconditional. I know that sounds somewhat ridiculous but I mean that you have to know that person truly has the best intentions. You have to know someone intimately and trust that they are there with good intentions. When you truly trust a person then you can let go and give that love knowing it's not going to be used against you. Some people take advantage in a relationship of the fact that the other person loves them maybe on a deeper level than they themselves feel. I believe for true unconditional love to exist it must be mutual.

 

It gets tricky though because you sort of need to be able to love unconditionally from the get go in order to develop that type of connection so maybe it's a Catch-22.  Maybe either unconditional love in the truest sense doesn't really exist, or maybe we have to know each other without judgment and assuming the best about that person until they show otherwise. Overall though I actually think many people are much too quick to say I love you one another in any situation, they get wrapped up in the emotion and they don't really understand the truth of what they mean by "I love you." I think to be able to give love in the truest sense you really do need to understand what you mean by love.

 

This was also kind of a stream of consciousness exploration of the topic so I'm not sure how much sense that all makes, but I hope it helps :)

 



#58 china cat

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 10:45 PM

I'd bring chocolate but China Cat got me to watch another documentary. Ruiner.

 

I am the ruiner. :bye:



#59 china cat

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 10:46 PM

and diggin a lot of what Jwheelz said, gotta contemplate some of it.



#60 Flip

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 10:50 PM

I'll ask my cat later. :bigsmile:



#61 TEO

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 10:56 PM

In my view JWheelz outlined circumstantial love rather than unconditional.

 

Why is it a person loves their children rather than all children?



#62 Java Time

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:03 PM

In my view JWheelz outlined circumstantial love rather than unconditional.

 

Why is it a person loves their children rather than all children?

 You hit the nail on the head li'l lady...again that's why it can't be explained...it just is 

 

nothing to do with personal relationships, kids, etc.

 

it's the kind of love that if a child was left on your doorstep with a note to please take care of my child...you would and without question just do so (horrible example perhaps but I think you may get the gist of what I'm saying?)



#63 Java Time

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:11 PM

 You hit the nail on the head li'l lady...again that's why it can't be explained...it just is 

 

nothing to do with personal relationships, kids, etc.

 

it's the kind of love that if a child was left on your doorstep with a note to please take care of my child...you would and without question just do so (horrible example perhaps but I think you may get the gist of what I'm saying?)

 

also...I love everyone, anytime, anywhere...until they give me a reason not to...then there are conditions



#64 Jabadoodle

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:13 PM

I am the ruiner. :bye:

 

Awww, don't leave. I didn't reeeeeeally mean it, ya know.
 



#65 china cat

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:14 PM


What is love with most of us? When we say we love somebody, what do we mean? We mean we possess that person. From that possession arises jealousy, because if I lose him or her what happens? I feel empty, lost; therefore I legalize possession; I hold him or her. From holding, possessing that person, there is jealousy, there is fear and all the innumerable conflicts that arise from possession. Surely such possession is not love, is it?

Obviously love is not sentiment. To be sentimental, to be emotional, is not love, because sentimentality and emotion are mere sensations. A religious person who weeps about Jesus or Krishna, about his guru or somebody else, is merely sentimental, emotional. He is indulging in sensation, which is a process of thought, and thought is not love. Thought is the result of sensation, so the person who is sentimental, who is emotional, cannot possibly know love.

Again, aren't we emotional and sentimental? Sentimentality, emotionalism, is merely a form of self-expansion. I DIG THAT LINE! To be full of emotion is obviously not love, because a sentimental person can be cruel when his sentiments are not responded to, when his feelings have no outlet. An emotional person can be stirred to hatred, to war, to butchery. A man who is sentimental, full of tears for his religion, surely has no love.

Is forgiveness love? What is implied in forgiveness? You insult me and I resent it, remember it; then, either through compulsion or through repentance, I say, "I forgive you". First I retain and then I reject. Which means what? I am still the central figure. I am still important, it is I who am forgiving somebody. As long as there is the attitude of forgiving it is I who am important, not the man who is supposed to have insulted me.

So when I accumulate resentment and then deny that resentment, which you call forgiveness, it is not love. A man who loves obviously has no enmity and to all these things he is indifferent. Sympathy, forgiveness, the relationship of possessiveness, jealousy and fear - all these things are not love. They are all of the mind, are they not? As long as the mind is the arbiter, there is no love, for the mind arbitrates only through possessiveness and its arbitration is merely possessiveness in different forms. The mind can only corrupt love, it cannot give birth to love, it cannot give beauty. You can write a poem about love, but that is not love.

 

So how can there be love? You can know love only when all these things have stopped, come to an end, only when you don't possess, when you are not merely emotional with devotion to an object. Such devotion is a supplication, seeking something in a different form. A man who prays does not know love. Since you are possessive, since you seek an end, a result, through devotion, through prayer, which make you sentimental, emotional, naturally there is no love. When these things disappear, when these things don't occupy your mind and when the things of the mind don't fill your heart, then there is love; and love alone can transform the present madness and insanity in the world
 
 


#66 Jabadoodle

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:16 PM

This was also kind of a stream of consciousness exploration of the topic so I'm not sure how much sense that all makes, but I hope it helps :)


Plenty of sense. You are bringing a little more practical reality and leaving aside more of the semantic-logic -- which is about what was needed.



#67 china cat

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:17 PM

Jiddu Krishnamurti quotes on Love continued

 

The demand to be safe in relationship inevitably breeds sorrow and fear. This seeking for security is inviting insecurity. Have you ever found security in any of your relationships? Have you? Most of us want the security of loving and being loved, but is there love when each one of us is seeking his own security, his own particular path?

 

We are not loved because we don't know how to love. What is love? The word is so loaded and corrupted that I hardly like to use it. Everybody talks of love - every magazine and newspaper and every missionary talks everlastingly of love. I love my country, I love my king, I love some book, I love that mountain, I love pleasure, I love my wife, I love God. Is love an idea? If it is, it can be cultivated, nourished, cherished, pushed around, twisted in any way you like. When you say you love God what does it mean? It means that you love a projection of your own imagination, a projection of yourself clothed in certain forms of respectability according to what you think is noble and holy; so to say, `I love God', is absolute nonsense. When you worship God you are worshipping yourself - and that is not love.

 

Because we cannot solve this human thing called love we run away into  abstractions. Love may be the ultimate solution to all man's difficulties, problems and travails, so how are we going to find out what love is? By merely defining it? The church has defined it one way, society another, and there are all sorts of deviations and perversions. Adoring someone, sleeping with someone, the emotional exchange, the companionship - is that what we mean by love? That has been the norm, the pattern, and it has become so tremendously personal, sensuous, and limited that religions have declared that love is something much more than this. In what they call human love they see there is pleasure, competition, jealousy, the desire to possess, to hold, to control and to interfere with another's thinking, and knowing the complexity of all this they say there must be another kind of love, divine, beautiful, untouched, uncorrupted.

 

Can love be divided into the sacred and the profane, the human and the divine, or is there only love? Is love of the one and not of the many? If I say,`I love you', does that exclude the love of the other? Is love personal or impersonal? Moral or immoral? Family or non-family? If you love mankind can you love the particular? Is love sentiment? Is love emotion? Is love pleasure and desire? All these questions indicate, don't they, that we have ideas about love, ideas about what it should or should not be, a pattern or a code developed by the culture in which we live.
So to go into the question of what love is we must first ideals and ideologies of what it should or should not be. To divide anything into what should be and what is, is the most deceptive way of dealing with life.

 

  Now how am I going to find out what this flame is which we call love - not how to express it to another but what it means in itself? I will  first reject what the church, what society, what my parents and friends, what every person and every book has said about it because I want to find out for myself what it is. Here is an enormous problem that involves the whole of mankind, there have been a thousand ways of defining it and I myself am caught in some pattern or other according to what I like or enjoy at the moment - so shouldn't I, in order to understand it, first free myself from my own inclinations and prejudices? I am confused, torn by my own desires, so I say to myself, `First clear up your own confusion. Perhaps you may be able to discover what love is through what it is not.'

 

....



#68 china cat

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:18 PM

continued..

 

The government says, `Go and kill for the love of your country'. Is  that love? Religion says, `Give up sex for the love of God'. Is that love? Is love desire? Don't say no. For most of us it is – desire with pleasure, the pleasure that is derived through the senses, through sexual attachment and fulfilment. I am not against sex, but see what is involved in it. What sex gives you momentarily is the total abandonment of yourself, then you are back again with your turmoil, so you want a repetition over and over again of that state in which there is no worry, no problem, no self. You say you love your wife. In that love is involved sexual pleasure, the pleasure of having someone in the house to look after your children, to cook. You depend on her; she has given you her body, her emotions, her encouragement, a certain feeling of security and well-being. Then she turns away from you; she gets bored or goes off with someone else, and your whole emotional balance is destroyed, and this disturbance, which you don't like, is called jealousy. There is pain in it, anxiety, hate and violence. So what you are really saying is, `As long as you belong to me I love you but the moment you don't I begin to hate you. As long as I can rely on you to satisfy my demands, sexual and otherwise, I love you, but the moment you cease to supply what I want I don't like you.' So there is antagonism between you, there is separation, and when you feel separate from another there is no love. But if you can live with your wife without thought creating all these contradictory states, these endless quarrels in yourself, then perhaps - perhaps - you will know what love is. Then you are completely free and so is she, whereas if you depend on her for all your pleasure you are a slave to her. So when one loves there must be freedom, not only from the other person but from oneself.

 

  This belonging to another, being psychologically nourished by  another, depending on another - in all this there must always be  anxiety, fear, jealousy, guilt, and so long as there is fear there is  no love; a mind ridden with sorrow will never know what love is; sentimentality and emotionalism have nothing whatsoever to do with love. And so love is not to do with pleasure and desire.



#69 china cat

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:23 PM

...So when you ask what love is, you may be too frightened to see the answer. It may mean complete upheaval; it may break up the family; you may discover that you do not love your wife or husband or children - do you? - you may have to shatter the house you have built, you may never go back to the temple.   But if you still want to find out, you will see that fear is not love, dependence is not love, jealousy is not love, possessiveness and domination are not love, responsibility and duty are not love, self-pity is not love, the agony of not being loved is not love, love is not the opposite of hate any more than humility is the opposite of vanity. So if you can eliminate all these, not by forcing them but by washing them away as the rain washes the dust of many days from a leaf, then perhaps you will come upon this strange flower which man always hungers after. If you have not got love - not just in little drops but in abundance if you are not filled with it - the world will go to disaster. You know intellectually that the unity of mankind is essential and that love is the only way, but who is going to teach you how to love? Will any authority, any method, any system, tell you how to love?



#70 china cat

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:26 PM

  Love is something that is new, fresh, alive. It has no yesterday and  no tomorrow. It is beyond the turmoil of thought. It is only the innocent mind which knows what love is, and the innocent mind can live in the world which is not innocent. To find this extraordinary thing which man has sought endlessly through sacrifice, through worship, through relationship, through sex, through every form of pleasure and pain, is only possible when thought comes to understand itself and comes naturally to an end. Then love has no opposite, then love has no conflict. You may ask, `If I find such a love, what happens to my wife, my children, my family? They must have security.' When you put such a question you have never been outside the field of thought, the field of consciousness. When once you have been outside that field you will never ask such a question because then you will know what love is in which there is no thought and therefore no time. You may read this mesmerized and enchanted, but actually to go beyond thought and time - which means going beyond sorrow - is to be aware that there is a different dimension called love. But you don't know how to come to this extraordinary fount - so what do you do? If you don't know what to do, you do nothing, don't you? Absolutely nothing. Then inwardly you are completely silent. Do you understand what that means? It means that you are not seeking, not wanting, not pursuing; there is no centre at all. Then there is love.



#71 china cat

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:26 PM

Krishnamurti is an interesting guy.



#72 Jersey Thug

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:34 PM

you're an interesting woman.  i'd much rather hear your own unique thoughts on the subject :) :heart:



#73 KittyKindBud

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:36 PM


Really great thread. I don't know as that I love you all unconditionally but I sure like you pretty well :smile2:

Great thread



#74 Eco

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:36 PM

I can't seem to accept the concept of unconditional love really exists.  For an extreme example.....if the love of your life killed your kids and family would you still love him/her?  Certainly lesser stuff like if she got drunk and shit in my favorite shoes, or went off her meds and burnt all of my clothes....love could live on.....



#75 Jwheelz

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:37 PM

continued..

 

The government says, [...] er, being psychologically nourished by  another, depending on another - in all this there must always be  anxiety, fear, jealousy, guilt, and so long as there is fear there is  no love; a mind ridden with sorrow will never know what love is; sentimentality and emotionalism have nothing whatsoever to do with love. And so love is not to do with pleasure and desire.

 

these quotes are interesting but they still rely on love being defined as what one gets from another, I would argue that it's defined by what one is able to give another not what they get



#76 KittyKindBud

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:38 PM

I believe in unconditional love ....



#77 Jwheelz

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:43 PM

In my view JWheelz outlined circumstantial love rather than unconditional.

 

Why is it a person loves their children rather than all children?

 

to me loving unconditionally is not the same as loving universally... sure you can act with love to the world around you but I don't believe any of us relate to those of us around us who aren't directly part of our day-to-day lives on a deep enough level to truly have a loving relationship... on top of that I think that it's dangerous to love everyone because to me love = deep unyielding compassion, and as much as I would love to have that level of compassion for everyone I've found that I've been badly hurt when I've given that gift (and I feel it is a gift, not in a personal sense about the value of my own love for someone, but just for anyone to let go to that magnitude in general is a gift they are giving) to the wrong people.

 

So I believe that when you choose to let down your guard and truly give your love to one another it needs to be unconditional, but that not everyone in my opinion is worthy of that. That's a philosophical stance that I'm sure many people don't share with me.



#78 TEO

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:50 PM

I hear you JWheelz, it seems that much of humanity falls far short of that level of compassion.



#79 Eco

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:51 PM

So I believe that when you choose to let down your guard and truly give your love to one another it needs to be unconditional, but that not everyone in my opinion is worthy of that. That's a philosophical stance that I'm sure many people don't share with me.

Wondering where/when the unconditional part would start for you.  For example you meet a woman you like, then have feelings for her, then the oh shit I might love her, then the knowing you love her....then that love growing stronger and stronger each day.  So, at what point would the love become unconditional?  Not that it matters but for me it's maybe once I can see the love growing stronger and stronger.



#80 china cat

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:18 AM

you're an interesting woman.  i'd much rather hear your own unique thoughts on the subject :) :heart:

 

it takes too much time to articulate them.

 

honestly, I spend so much time in thought, developing lectures, discussing within my classes, I have little left in the way of articulating (in a thoughtful way) for more casual encounters on-line.  It would probably take over an hour to construct a response to this thread in the way I would like.  And this is just 1 thread. Add in other threads....facebook.... e-mail....  Sometimes I just default to a reading/quote that intrigued me, hoping it will intrigue another.

 

Another reason I default:  I think I'm still questioning my own thoughts about a lot of topics. I'm questioning and I'm reading more than I'm answering. I'm not sure I know what unconditional love is? For me, love, by definition, is unconditional. It is radical acceptance of self and other. It's acknowledging the inherent worthiness of self and all other beings, simply because they are.

 

To say  "You are Seen." "You are Accepted." and "You Are Worthy" Because You Are.     These are examples and extensions of love.

 

I think that judgement is probably the greatest barrier to receiving and offering love. Beyond that, I'm not too sure.

 

I really appreciate your comment though, Thug. I have a friend who posts her own thoughts everyday on facebook and I love reading them.

 

Maybe the key is to narrow and be more thoughtful in a few, rather than quote/ or use quick responses in many.



#81 Royal

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:24 AM

There are two people who I have seen love for the world in their eyes.  They are China Cat and Sunshower



#82 Jwheelz

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:27 AM

Wondering where/when the unconditional part would start for you.  For example you meet a woman you like, then have feelings for her, then the oh shit I might love her, then the knowing you love her....then that love growing stronger and stronger each day.  So, at what point would the love become unconditional?  Not that it matters but for me it's maybe once I can see the love growing stronger and stronger.

 

I'll admit I have somewhat limited experience in that area but for me generally it's somewhere between "oh shit I might love her" and "knowing I love her"... I'm hesitant to call the feelings I have for someone love unless they are unconditional... but it's not something I really consciously think about, it's just something that naturally emerges... 

 

one thing I can say that is painful is loving someone else unconditionally yet them not believing you do and them not loving you unconditionally back as a result...



#83 china cat

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:29 AM

Wondering where/when the unconditional part would start for you.  For example you meet a woman you like, then have feelings for her, then the oh shit I might love her, then the knowing you love her....then that love growing stronger and stronger each day.  So, at what point would the love become unconditional?  Not that it matters but for me it's maybe once I can see the love growing stronger and stronger.

 

is it growing to love somebody or is it having someone with whom to express the love already in your heart? maybe love doesn't develop, maybe it is simply manifest, revealed, and enacted with someone?



#84 Tim the Beek

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:33 AM

 ...more casual encounters on-line.

 

:joker:



#85 Tim the Beek

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:34 AM

Interesting thread...will mull it over and give some thoughts when they have words to them...



#86 Jwheelz

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:36 AM

[...] For me, love, by definition, is unconditional. It is radical acceptance of self and other. It's acknowledging the inherent worthiness of self and all other beings, simply because they are.

 

To say  "You are Seen." "You are Accepted." and "You Are Worthy" Because You Are.     These are examples and extensions of love.

 

I think that judgement is probably the greatest barrier to receiving and offering love. Beyond that, I'm not too sure.

 

I really appreciate your comment though, Thug. I have a friend who posts her own thoughts everyday on facebook and I love reading them.

 

Maybe the key is to narrow and be more thoughtful in a few, rather than quote/ or use quick responses in many.

 

 

 

2 things:

 

when you say love by definition is unconditional, I suppose that's what I'm getting at... personally I think it takes a lot to love everybody but I know very well that there may not really be a limit to love in the most ideal sense... but for those that I can say I honestly do love, I can't see there being anything that changes the way I feel... that takes into account the characteristics of that person, which are part of the reason that leads me to say I love them... I may be cynical when I say there are people that are not deserving of love (or at least my love), because ultimately who am I to judge that? Other people judging that about me has caused me pain so I probably cause the same with others... maybe the ultimate expression of this idea of love really is to be able to let go of any judgment and treat everyone with true unconditional love... but I think that takes the concept of unconditional love and adds universality to it

 

 

As for being narrow and more thoughtful in a few posts, that's what I do... there's just too much being said and too many different topics to be able to really delve in deep on all of them, so I zero in on what interests me or promises to be the most thought-provoking discussion and dive in :)



#87 china cat

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:37 AM

I'll admit I have somewhat limited experience in that area but for me generally it's somewhere between "oh shit I might love her" and "knowing I love her"... I'm hesitant to call the feelings I have for someone love unless they are unconditional... but it's not something I really consciously think about, it's just something that naturally emerges... 

 

one thing I can say that is painful is loving someone else unconditionally yet them not believing you do and them not loving you unconditionally back as a result...

 

is love (in a spiritual sense) ever really painful?  unmet needs are painful... rejection is painful... but these are not love. they are the absence of love.

 

do we need people to believe in our love or reciprocate love in order to give love, all the while allowing it to be free from pain? 



#88 china cat

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:40 AM

:joker:

 

you are my last on-line casual encounter. :heartbounce:



#89 Eco

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:43 AM

one thing I can say that is painful is loving someone else unconditionally yet them not believing you do and them not loving you unconditionally back as a result...

Lol, I think most people can relate to that!  It's hard to shake the feeling that it might happen again or that the love might not be for the right reasons. Sort of why I'm guarded with opening my heart to love anyone....but once it's open it feels so good and the fears seem to slide away.



#90 Jwheelz

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:46 AM

is love (in a spiritual sense) ever really painful?  unmet needs are painful... rejection is painful... but these are not love. they are the absence of love.

 

do we need people to believe in our love or reciprocate love in order to give love, all the while allowing it to be free from pain? 

 

I might need to clarify what I was saying. I'm not saying the love itself was painful... it was the questioning of the love... the other person's suspicion that I was not sincere... perhaps this was communicated through my own actions to that individual but I'm only saying that the fact that I gave of myself what I felt was 100%, completely letting go of any conditions... and was essentially told "I don't believe you and that's not good enough anyway"



#91 Tim the Beek

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:48 AM

Attachment to love can be painful. I don't think love itself ever is.



#92 china cat

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:52 AM

2 things:

 

when you say love by definition is unconditional, I suppose that's what I'm getting at... personally I think it takes a lot to love everybody but I know very well that there may not really be a limit to love in the most ideal sense... but for those that I can say I honestly do love, I can't see there being anything that changes the way I feel... that takes into account the characteristics of that person, which are part of the reason that leads me to say I love them... I may be cynical when I say there are people that are not deserving of love (or at least my love), because ultimately who am I to judge that? Other people judging that about me has caused me pain so I probably cause the same with others... maybe the ultimate expression of this idea of love really is to be able to let go of any judgment and treat everyone with true unconditional love... but I think that takes the concept of unconditional love and adds universality to it

 

 

As for being narrow and more thoughtful in a few posts, that's what I do... there's just too much being said and too many different topics to be able to really delve in deep on all of them, so I zero in on what interests me or promises to be the most thought-provoking discussion and dive in :)

 

maybe it's the word "everybody"  that feels unmanageable, overwhelming, and impossible....maybe if we re-conceptualize and recognize our one-ness. you are not loving each person ("everybody") you simply are love.. in love, being love, sharing love...  and all that you encounter is just an opportunity to express what you already are.

 

and, maybe, just maybe, it takes a lot more to not to love everybody.  



#93 Tim the Beek

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:53 AM

you are my last on-line casual encounter. :heartbounce:

 

:blush:



#94 Eco

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:53 AM

is it growing to love somebody or is it having someone with whom to express the love already in your heart? maybe love doesn't develop, maybe it is simply manifest, revealed, and enacted with someone?

Interesting question that I can't really answer but I'll give it a shot.  I guess it's more of progression of falling more in love than "growing to love" like my example of "oh shit I might love her" to "I'm in love".  Maybe like on day one I can count 10 reasons why I love her to on day 10 100 reasons.....to day 100 counting 1000 reasons....like climbing a ladder....I dunno.  I don't think love for humans is in my heart waiting for me to release in/embrace it or whatever.....it grows from a single sperm...lol. 

 

If you think it is something that is stored in your heart, can it be measured?  How many people can you share that love with?  IF for example you and Tim have 10 kids and win the lottery and adopt 100 kids from wherever, can your love be spread equally?  Is there a limit to how much love one can have....or how much one can receive? 



#95 Eco

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:57 AM

 I gave of myself what I felt was 100%, completely letting go of any conditions... and was essentially told "I don't believe you and that's not good enough anyway"

But with unconditional love you still loved her when she said that?  By definition (in my twisted head) unconditional love could not be broken......correct?



#96 china cat

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:59 AM

Lol, I think most people can relate to that!  It's hard to shake the feeling that it might happen again or that the love might not be for the right reasons. Sort of why I'm guarded with opening my heart to love anyone....but once it's open it feels so good and the fears seem to slide away.

 

that seems like fear, not love.

 

are you acting from a place of love or a need for it? if you are acting from a need for it, rather than being it... is that love?

 

seems like we're talking about romantic feelings.. which includes expectations, requirements, fulfillment of unmet longings for connection and reciprocation. Are we confusing love with fulfillment of needs? What the other provides, versus what we offer?

 

Is love contingent on an external response from outside?

 

ok, I have to go do stuff... thanks for the interesting discussion



#97 china cat

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:02 AM

Interesting question that I can't really answer but I'll give it a shot.  I guess it's more of progression of falling more in love than "growing to love" like my example of "oh shit I might love her" to "I'm in love".  Maybe like on day one I can count 10 reasons why I love her to on day 10 100 reasons.....to day 100 counting 1000 reasons....like climbing a ladder....I dunno.  I don't think love for humans is in my heart waiting for me to release in/embrace it or whatever.....it grows from a single sperm...lol. 

 

If you think it is something that is stored in your heart, can it be measured?  How many people can you share that love with?  IF for example you and Tim have 10 kids and win the lottery and adopt 100 kids from wherever, can your love be spread equally?  Is there a limit to how much love one can have....or how much one can receive? 

 

I don't think there is a limit.

 

Not sure it resides in me-- edit to say: maybe "in my heart" was poor choice of words. I just need to stay open, clear the blockages that hinder its presence (judgment, fear), and be a vessel through which is flows through and forth.



#98 china cat

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:04 AM

There are two people who I have seen love for the world in their eyes.  They are China Cat and Sunshower

 

I love you, Ryan.



#99 Jwheelz

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:16 AM

But with unconditional love you still loved her when she said that?  By definition (in my twisted head) unconditional love could not be broken......correct?

 

it didn't affect the love I felt in the moment or up until that moment... but over time the actions that I witnessed caused me to reevaluate my understanding of who that person was on a fundamental level... and once I had a chance to step back from the situation and see who the person really was... I realized I didn't love them anymore because it wasn't the person I thought it was...

 

So when there was love it persisted despite a great deal of difficulty, the conditions I was experiencing were very unpleasant but I still had love in my heart for that person... but there was some key moment where my entire understanding of the situation changed and then it went away...

 

I think some would say that that really doesn't count as unconditional love... so I don't know :lol:



#100 Eco

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:29 AM

 

I think some would say that that really doesn't count as unconditional love... so I don't know :lol:

Lol, maybe temporary unconditional love. 

 

Had a very brief phone convo with the love of my life a little bit ago and I asked one of those odd questions "if I committed crimes involving kids, or committed them often, would you still love me" and "if you murdered my kids and family, should I still love you"....not exact quotes...maybe not even close but the point is we agreed there is a limit...hence conditional.  If someone can stand up on a soap box and claim unconditional love for their lover even if they murder family or commit crimes involving kids I would be entertained to hear their opinion.   And...nah nah nah to any concept of if the love is unconditional my lover would not do that stuff....any of us can snap at any time...hopefully none of will snap that bad though.....  Even knock it down a few levels....he/she cheats on me often...but is sorry each and every time....would unconditional love apply and too what limit?