286 replies to this topic

[hoagie]

"bang bang shoot em up, the party never ends"

[Spidergawd]

I can't tell you how weary I am of some people on the other side of this issue either making outlandish, broad brush assumptions about us, or using language which is emotionally baiting to, well, I really don't know what it is they're trying to do.

Maybe it's a good tactic though. Makes me less likely to want to exercise my free speech rights going forward...

Done.

 

My last on this thread is to point out that problem is rife on both sides of the issue. 

 

And now....

 

[Spidergawd]

[little frog]

why would you argue in favor of forming a militia against the govt and not consider the reality that you would be shooting your neighbors? the civil war seemed like a grand idea to the south in 1860, standing up for their rights against a tyrannical govt taking away their freedom to own slaves, trying to ruin their economy by making them pay for help on plantations, but the brutal reality was a much different picture. neighbors killed neighbors, brothers killed brothers. over 60,000 men died in that conflict, civilian casualties were horrific, whole generations of men were dead. And in the end, no one seceded and no one 'won'.

 

countries and govts are bound to be ever changing entities, some people wanted to take up arms over the right to abort a fetus .. we've gone too far, changed the laws. this isn't what the founding fathers would have wanted, but the laws changed to reflect a changing society.

 

I agree that a govt should represent its people and their views, but that's a tricky situation in a country with so many different views. arming yourself against a democratic govt will get you what? another civil war?

 

finding a solution to increasing civilian on civilian violence should be our focus now.

[TakeAStepBack]

civilian on civilian violence has declined overall for years. It's not increasing. And the south didn't choose civil war, they chose to leave the union. The federal government chose to make sure they stayed in the "union" (even if once it is an issue of force,  it's no longer a union) even if that meant violence and death.

[Joker]

Protecting our rights and the ability to defend ourselves is where our focus should be, especially now when so many are more than willing to sacrifice our rights for their cause.

[Tabbooma]

It is actually a good question, if you believe that people should be armed including yourself to defend against a tryanical USA goverment, would you peronally raise arms to stop it? By raising arms you could possibly have to shoot a neighbor who was in the service of that tryanical USA goverment.. So why mock the question? You cant have it both ways Mr Beek.

 

That's it! Actually, everyone I've met from this thread who's posted in support of the Second Amendment has confessed to me that he or she wants to shoot people. And to see thousands of countrymen and women dead on the ground.

 

Oh, wait...no they haven't. They're some of the kindest, most peaceful people I've ever known. And probably less likely to pick up a weapon and harm someone in day to day life than many I know on the "anti-gun" side.

 

I can't tell you how weary I am of some people on the other side of this issue either making outlandish, broad brush assumptions about us, or using language which is emotionally baiting to, well, I really don't know what it is they're trying to do.

Maybe it's a good tactic though. Makes me less likely to want to exercise my free speech rights going forward...

Done.

[Tabbooma]

My take is, all guns started out as legal once, way too many lax laws across the country, make the law consistent across the board so someone cant drive to another state to buy guns to turn around and sell them in antoher state to potential criminals, all gun sales should be recorded along with there serial numbers, far too many guns get stolen but there is no actual evidence because the irrisponsible gun owner could not keep records of his guns serial numbers, how can someone just buy a long gun in some states with zero records because the person selling said gun is not a dealer but a private citizen making a legal sale of it, a sale that in lots of states is not required to be recorded.... All guns started out as legal once and lots end up in the hands of the wrong people because of lax laws.. It is harder to get a drivers license in most states

[little frog]

civilian on civilian violence has declined overall for years. It's not increasing. And the south didn't choose civil war, they chose to leave the union. The federal government chose to make sure they stayed in the "union" (even if once it is an issue of force,  it's no longer a union) even if that meant violence and death.

 

the south attacked first actually, the north tried to make peace with peace talks.  the south wanted to enlist new states to the slave cause and washington said no, the south then declared they were leaving and attacked fort sumter, taking union forts across the south.

 

please give me some numbers on your civilian to civilian violence decline.

[Tabbooma]

[TakeAStepBack]

the south attacked first actually, the north tried to make peace with peace talks.  the south wanted to enlist new states to the slave cause and washington said no, the south then declared they were leaving and attacked fort sumter, taking union forts across the south.

 

please give me some numbers on your civilian to civilian violence decline.

 

On December 26, 1860, six days after South Carolina declared its secession, U.S. Army Major Robert Anderson abandoned the indefensible Fort Moultrie and secretly relocated companies E and H (127 men, 13 of them musicians) of the 1st U.S. Artillery to Fort Sumter on his own initiative, without orders from Washington.^{[7][8][9][10][11]} He thought that providing a stronger defense would delay an attack by South Carolina militia. The fort was not yet complete at the time and fewer than half of the cannons that should have been available were in place, due to military downsizing by President James Buchanan. Over the next few months repeated calls for evacuation of Fort Sumter^[12] from the government of South Carolina and then from Confederate Brigadier General P. G. T. Beauregard were ignored. Union attempts to resupply and reinforce the garrison were repulsed on January 9, 1861 when the first shots of the war, fired by cadets from The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina, prevented the steamer Star of the West, hired to transport troops and supplies to Fort Sumter, from completing the task. After realizing that Anderson's command would run out of food by April 15, 1861, President Lincoln ordered a fleet of ships, under the command of Gustavus V. Fox, to attempt entry into Charleston Harbor and supply Fort Sumter. The ships assigned were the steam sloop-of-war USS Pawnee, steam sloop-of-war USS Powhatan, transporting motorized launches and about 300 sailors (secretly removed from the Charleston fleet to join in the forced reinforcement of Fort Pickens, Pensacola, FL), armed screw steamer USS Pocahontas, Revenue Cutter USRC Harriet Lane, steamer Baltic transporting about 200 troops, composed of companies C and D of the 2nd U.S. Artillery, and three hired tug boats with added protection against small arms fire to be used to tow troop and supply barges directly to Fort Sumter.^[13][14] By April 6, 1861 the first ships began to set sail for their rendezvous off the Charleston Bar. The first to arrive was the Harriet Lane, before midnight of April 11, 1861.^[15]

[TakeAStepBack]

They were told to leave and they initiated war by not doing so.

[MeOmYo]

My take is, all guns started out as legal once, way too many lax laws across the country, make the law consistent across the board so someone cant drive to another state to buy guns to turn around and sell them in antoher state to potential criminals, all gun sales should be recorded along with there serial numbers, far too many guns get stolen but there is no actual evidence because the irrisponsible gun owner could not keep records of his guns serial numbers, how can someone just buy a long gun in some states with zero records because the person selling said gun is not a dealer but a private citizen making a legal sale of it, a sale that in lots of states is not required to be recorded.... All guns started out as legal once and lots end up in the hands of the wrong people because of lax laws.. It is harder to get a drivers license in most states

The legislation requiring all firearm sales go through an ffl does does this.

[TakeAStepBack]

the south attacked first actually, the north tried to make peace with peace talks.  the south wanted to enlist new states to the slave cause and washington said no, the south then declared they were leaving and attacked fort sumter, taking union forts across the south.

 

please give me some numbers on your civilian to civilian violence decline.

 

[Tabbooma]

Not all fire arm sales, I can buy a long gun from joe smoe in flordia and it is not recorded nor is back ground check required, take that gun and drive up to CT and sell it in Bridgeport with no tracking at all of this gun nor background checks for the buyer and sellers... I'd have to register a car if I did this but not a gun

The legislation requiring all firearm sales go through an ffl does does this.

[little frog]

thank you for the chart.

 

I'll go poke around for stats, but that decrease has to do with increased policing, crackdowns on gang violence in inner cities during the nineties and then more crackdowns after 911 when police and FBI started taking every threat seriously, and homeland security was formed. Good for them, but with that came restrictions and new gun laws.

 

I'm having trouble pasting the firearms data, but that happens to be up from 2000 to 2009, from 8661 to 9203.

 



[MeOmYo]

Not all fire arm sales, I can buy a long gun from joe smoe in flordia and it is not recorded nor is back ground check required, take that gun and drive up to CT and sell it in Bridgeport with no tracking at all of this gun nor background checks for the buyer and sellers... I'd have to register a car if I did this but not a gun

 

 

Currently, you are correct.  However, with federal legislation requiring all firearm sales go through an FFL, this would not be the case.  Of course, the only people who would follow this legislation are people that follow the laws.

 

You would not have to register a car if you could conceal that car while driving it.  Apples and oranges IMO.

[TakeAStepBack]

thank you for the chart.

 

I'll go poke around for stats, but that decrease has to do with increased policing, crackdowns on gang violence in inner cities during the nineties and then more crackdowns after 911 when police and FBI started taking every threat seriously, and homeland security was formed. Good for them, but with that came restrictions and new gun laws.

 

I'm having trouble pasting the firearms data, but that happens to be up from 2000 to 2009, from 8661 to 9203.

 



 

The rates fell before the risse of ever bigger government. Though they love laying claim with their laws and "crackdowns". The stats are out there but you have to dig because of they way things get lumped together. Gun violence has been on a steady decline for over 30 years.

[TakeAStepBack]

[little frog]

what caused the spike in the mid 1990's? that is the only spike i see where you are pointing out gun violence is down

[TakeAStepBack]

I could not say. And one thing that Obama did as an EO, is to get a lift on the bar of stats regarding this stuff. Hopefully they will use that as a way to find some root common causes instead of just pushing the same old tired democrat agenda.

 

Here is a good read on the facts with guns/violence.

 

http://factcheck.org...c-vs-gun-facts/

 

[hoagie]

They were told to leave and they initiated war by not doing so.

How can you be told to leave hour own property?

[TakeAStepBack]

Back then the state had more authority over its sovereignty than the feds did. The civil war changed that, of course. Carolina said pack it up adn get out, we're not part of the union. The federal govt. decided that no one would be allowed to leave the Union. Therefore flipped them the bird adn kept on. Then when the militia went to remove the Union goons, they cried follow and war ensued.

 

Private property actually meant something back then. Lincoln changed a lot of that.

[Tabbooma]

 

Currently, you are correct.  

[hoagie]

Back then the state had more authority over its sovereignty than the feds did. The civil war changed that, of course. Carolina said pack it up adn get out, we're not part of the union. The federal govt. decided that no one would be allowed to leave the Union. Therefore flipped them the bird adn kept on. Then when the militia went to remove the Union goons, they cried follow and war ensued.

Private property actually meant something back then. Lincoln changed a lot of that.

Just sating "pack it up and leave" really didn't mean the feds had to... After all, SC signed on...according to you, they broke their oath, and were therefore considered traitors.

[Wende]

a bit off topic here.  But there is NO such thing as a non violent world.  There is NO such thing as not fighting a fight without fighting.

 

With love, comes fighting.  I will, with no problem at all, shoot you in the heart, if you ever hurt my children.  I'm not going to stand here and offer you rainbows.  I'm going to protect.  And that is that.  

 

Try to take my home, I will shoot you.  ANd if I can't shoot you, I will beat you with my brand new cast iron skillet.  Yup. 

 

 

 

 

People, by nature, want to protect.  I have four children and a man that I adore all in one home.

SOmetimes, with love, comes a fight.

[hoagie]

Mothers, by nature, want to protect. I have four children and a man that I adore all in one home.
SOmetimes, with love, comes a fight.

People are selfish and self-preserving, by nature.

[TakeAStepBack]

Just sating "pack it up and leave" really didn't mean the feds had to... After all, SC signed on...according to you, they broke their oath, and were therefore considered traitors.

 

No, secession was a state right (agreed upon either under the constitution or through natural rights) until Lincoln had the law changed via the courts in 1869. See Texas vs. White.

[concert andy]

No, secession was a state right (agreed upon either under the constitution or through natural rights) until Lincoln had the law changed via the courts in 1869. See Texas vs. White.

 

Why do laws matter, when people are not competent enough to run our government?

 

Logical loop hole.

[MeOmYo]

People are selfish and self-preserving, by nature.

 

putting yourself in harms way to protect those you love is probably one of the most unselfish acts one can do

[concert andy]

People are selfish and self-preserving, by nature.

 

This is what's wrong with politics.

 

putting yourself in harms way to protect those you love is probably one of the most unselfish acts one can do

 

This is what is great about humans.

[hoagie]

putting yourself in harms way to protect those you love is probably one of the most unselfish acts one can do

I think that is the point of life, to grow and overcome our natural tendancies, and evolve into higher beings...

Kinda intereting that in order to grow and overcome your human nature, you must be tested thru circumstance. If your loved ones were. Never in danger, how could you ever know what deeds youd be capable of? Food for thought...

[TakeAStepBack]

Why do laws matter, when people are not competent enough to run our government?

 

Logical loop hole.

 

No one said that people aren't competent enough to run government. What was said is that people aren't competent enough to run other peoples lives.

 

Comprehension failure.

[Wende]

I think that is the point of life, to grow and overcome our natural tendancies, and evolve into higher beings...

Kinda intereting that in order to grow and overcome your human nature, you must be tested thru circumstance. If your loved ones were. Never in danger, how could you ever know what deeds youd be capable of? Food for thought...

And from someone that has obviously never had someone they cared for more than oneself can not truly answer this or presume anything.  Telling me I'm fucking selfish for protecting mine over the life of some creep that wants to harm us?  You're fucking delusional. 

[hoagie]

No, i said mothers want to protect by nature, as opposed to humans being selfish and self-preserving by natire.

Motherhood changes everything.

[Wende]

Gotcha. 

 

I type before absorbing properly, please excuse me. 

[hoagie]

Be more absorbant

[Wende]

fuck you! 

[Spidergawd]

[Tim the Beek]

Found this interesting, if not a little confusing:

 

Sydney’s murder rate has halved in the past decade, falling to its lowest level in recent history. Homicide cases have dropped from 88 in 2001 to 43 in 2011, reflecting a statewide trend in which murders fell from 119 to 77. The rate of one homicide per 100,000 people is the lowest in many years, according to BOSCAR. The percentage of murders committed with a firearm has declined across Australia since 1999 to approximately 15 percent currently. This is often attributed to stricter gun laws passed after the Port Arthur Massacre of 1996, yet gun violence has not declined accordingly. Improvements in policing are thought to have contributed to Sydney's falling murder rate, including crackdowns on Middle Eastern crime, gang violence, and domestic violence. Familial homicide, or murder committed by a spouse or relative, accounts for about 40 percent of murders in NSW.

 

https://www.osac.gov....aspx?cid=12250

[Shake Yer Bones]

It's nice to see happy endings with stories that involve guns. 

 

Rochester Police Chief James Sheppard says a resident of a home confronted two burglars with a semi-automatic assault rifle and scared the would-be burglars off. It happened around midnight Tuesday. Chief Sheppard says the weapon is legal and is legally owned by the resident.

[TakeAStepBack]

Couldn't the man have reasoned with the burglars?

[hoagie]

I have changed my mind. I think everyone should be able to own firearms to defend against possible tyranny by a changing government. Not even kidding.

[Tim the Beek]

Care to write more on what was involved in your change of mind?

[Wende]

Couldn't the man have reasoned with the burglars?

and this is my point.  There is no such thing as offering butterflies and  peace and love.  Sometimes you have to use force.  Dammit! 

I won't bother you, because I"m a good person, but I can't say the same about the next guy.  And I have too much to lose to an idiot that is sick in the head.

[Wende]

And our government is so twisted, that if we're all unarmed...we are at their mercy. Screw that. 

[TEO]

Tibet is an interesting case.

[hoagie]

Care to write more on what was involved in your change of mind?

jesse Ventura

[Tim the Beek]

That certainly brought me some clarity.

[Wende]