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#51 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:05 PM

and the mother had a house full of guns, she (the good guy with a gun) was not able to defend herself from the bad guy with a gun.

GIANT theory fail


WTF? The kid stole her guns or he had access to them. That is not a responsible gun owner in the least. She is not the good guy here. She created a monster and it, quite literally, blew up in her face. She trained him, she kept him within arms reach of firearms and she paid the ultimate price for it.

How you can equate "good guy" to the parent that created this monster is beyond me.

#52 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:08 PM

Absolutely perplexing.

#53 concert andy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:14 PM

How did she create a monster? Please elaborate, because he had assbergers, a mental health issue medical professionals are still figuring out. And she tried to get him help on repeated occasions.

But you seem to be be connecting the dots to easily.

Talk about perplexing.

#54 Depends

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:23 PM

Im saying she was the legal gun owner. In the NRA's definition she is a good guy. I place a whole lot of the blame at her feet. Even if this kid was 100 % normal, he should not have had access to those weapons.
But the fact remains. She had weapons to protect herself. That was her intention upon purchase. Her intention was to have the ability to kill someone who intended to kill her (or her family). It didn't work. So why should it work elsewhere?
Virgina Tech had armed guards. Didn't help. Columbine had an armed officer on campus. It didn't help. But if we spend $10 Billion, it will fix the problem.

I don't have the same issues with gun control as many do. I have an issue with the NRA coming out and blaming everything and everybody from "Grand Theft Auto" to "Malibu Barbie". And then saying the only way to fix this problem is to hire highly trained armed guards for every school. And Oh, BTW, the NRA can offer classes.

#55 concert andy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:27 PM

Connecticut school shooting: Adam Lanza's mother was preparing for disaster

The mother of the gunman who killed 20 children and seven adults in America’s worst school massacre, was a gun-proud “survivalist” preparing for economic collapse, it has emerged.

#56 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:29 PM

But the fact remains. She had weapons to protect herself. That was her intention upon purchase. Her intention was to have the ability to kill someone who intended to kill her (or her family). It didn't work. So why should it work elsewhere?

Yes. Weapons she allowed this kid to obviously have access to, or did not secure them properly. The responsiblity is ALL hers in that regard. So now everyone is this fucking stupid? What a stretch.
The kid has problems from what we know. The mother had guns he obviously both knew about and could gain access to. We don't know a whole lot because the media circus had pumped out more fuckign garbage information than any normal person could possibly keep up with.

It's all her. She's to blame here.

#57 JBetty

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:30 PM

It's all her. She's to blame here.


So Adam bears no responsibility for his actions?

#58 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:33 PM

Oh, he sure does. It doesn't really go far when you couple what we know together. If he was in her home and under her care, she is the parent, the gun owner and is fully responsible for him gaining access to her firearms. What he did next is on him. As PF pointed out, would he have been a menace had he not gotten ahold of the firearms? We dont know. But he didnt buy those arms. He stole them and used them agaisnt the person who should have secured them better.

This is not an intruder type episode.

#59 concert andy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:34 PM

But the fact remains. She had weapons to protect herself. That was her intention upon purchase. Her intention was to have the ability to kill someone who intended to kill her (or her family). It didn't work. So why should it work elsewhere?

Yes. Weapons she allowed this kid to obviously have access to, or did not secure them properly. The responsiblity is ALL hers in that regard. So now everyone is this fucking stupid? What a stretch.
The kid has problems from what we know. The mother had guns he obviously both knew about and could gain access to. We don't know a whole lot because the media circus had pumped out more fuckign garbage information than any normal person could possibly keep up with.

It's all her. She's to blame here.


And yet she is dead too, a victim is to blame.

That makes sense.

#60 concert andy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:34 PM

You do realize he was 20 years old adult who was highly intelligent, and not a kid who had to be under her care?

Dont you?

#61 Depends

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:36 PM

But the fact remains. She had weapons to protect herself. That was her intention upon purchase. Her intention was to have the ability to kill someone who intended to kill her (or her family). It didn't work. So why should it work elsewhere?

Yes. Weapons she allowed this kid to obviously have access to, or did not secure them properly. The responsiblity is ALL hers in that regard. So now everyone is this fucking stupid? What a stretch.
The kid has problems from what we know. The mother had guns he obviously both knew about and could gain access to. We don't know a whole lot because the media circus had pumped out more fuckign garbage information than any normal person could possibly keep up with.

It's all her. She's to blame here.


Agreed. The responibility IS hers to secure those weapons. She FAILED. Does everyone fail at this, no, but I'd be willing to bet that there are more people who do. Case in point, the 14 YO in PA today who had 2 WWII 9MM handguns, and threatened to kill people at his HS. Parent fail yes. But does that bring dead people back to life?

#62 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:37 PM

And yet she is dead too, a victim is to blame.

That makes sense.


God damned right she is to blame. How did he gain access to her firearms?

#63 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:38 PM

You do realize he was 20 years old adult who was highly intelligent, and not a kid who had to be under her care?

Dont you?


Did he live in her home? Did he have mental disabilities? Did he gain access to her firearms?

#64 JBetty

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:40 PM

God damned right she is to blame. How did he gain access to her firearms?



Is it known that the weapons were not secured properly, or did he have to break into a secure place to steal them?

#65 Depends

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:41 PM

Did he live in her home? Did he have mental disabilities? Did he gain access to her firearms?


Yes
Who knows? Are you a neurological phycologist who is able to make diagnosis via the internet?
Yes

#66 concert andy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:42 PM

Did he live in her home? Did he have mental disabilities? Did he gain access to her firearms?


And yet, kids always find guns in their parents house, and sometimes they bring them to school, and sometimes they shoot themselves.

May be in this case, he knew where the keys to gun was. May be he broke into where the guns were stored?


But you know what happened in that house, and the dead mother is to blame.

Talk about judging without knowing all the facts.

You may be right, but to form your opinion based on dot connecting is not the usual M.O. for TASB.

Usually you are more informed before you form opinions.

#67 concert andy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:43 PM

Is it known that the weapons were not secured properly, or did he have to break into a secure place to steal them?


This

Yes
Who knows? Are you a neurological phycologist who is able to make diagnosis via the internet?
Yes


This

#68 Depends

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:44 PM

Had this woman not been killed, she should have been held criminally and civily responsible for Adam's actions. Proceeds from her estate should go to the victims.

#69 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:45 PM

I don't care how he got his hands on her guns. He got them. Which means she didn't do her job.

Yes
Who knows? Are you a neurological phycologist who is able to make diagnosis via the internet?
Yes


I'm going off what we know. All the reports I've read show he had some problems. And was attached to her at the hip. Even going to target ranges to shoot with her.
She obviously was a little to relaxed about her firearms. And no, im not a phycologist. Again, going on what we know.

#70 JBetty

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:46 PM

Had this woman not been killed, she should have been held criminally and civily responsible for Adam's actions. Proceeds from her estate should go to the victims.



But what if the weapons were properly locked up and Adam broke in to steal them?

#71 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:47 PM

And yet, kids always find guns in their parents house, and sometimes they bring them to school, and sometimes they shoot themselves.

May be in this case, he knew where the keys to gun was. May be he broke into where the guns were stored?


But you know what happened in that house, and the dead mother is to blame.

Talk about judging without knowing all the facts.

You may be right, but to form your opinion based on dot connecting is not the usual M.O. for TASB.

Usually you are more informed before you form opinions.


They always find guns in the parents houses and take them to school? That sounds like some fuckign terrible parenting to me. It definitely does not for one second mean we should be blaming guns for these things.

#72 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:48 PM

It's just like i was saying in TtB's thread on solutions. We are a culture of dodging respoonsibility at all costs. We want to take all the good and reject any negatives as someone or something elses fault.

#73 Depends

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:49 PM

I don't care how he got his hands on her guns. He got them. Which means she didn't do her job.


I'm going off what we know. All the reports I've read show he had some problems. And was attached to her at the hip. Even going to target ranges to shoot with her.
She obviously was a little to relaxed about her firearms. And no, im not a phycologist. Again, going on what we know.

Who is we? We don't know anything. As far as WE know, he had never been diagnosed with anything. Are you going by what you know, that he was a loner? That he was attached to his mother?

#74 concert andy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:49 PM

They always find guns in the parents houses and take them to school? That sounds like some fuckign terrible parenting to me. It definitely does not for one second mean we should be blaming guns for these things.



Wow, did you read I said SOMETIMES?


I am not blaming the GUN. When did I blame the gun?

#75 Depends

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:51 PM

But what if the weapons were properly locked up and Adam broke in to steal them?

Then she is still responsible. If he was able to steal then, she was negligent.

If someone steals your car, and damages someone else's property, who is responsible? I'll give you a hint. It rhymes with car owner

#76 concert andy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:52 PM

I don't care how he got his hands on her guns. He got them. Which means she didn't do her job.


I'm going off what we know. All the reports I've read show he had some problems. And was attached to her at the hip. Even going to target ranges to shoot with her.
She obviously was a little to relaxed about her firearms. And no, im not a phycologist. Again, going on what we know.


This is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard you say.

Why dont you wait until all the facts are out before emotionally responding. which the above response sounds like. Emotion.

Something you ripped earlier.

#77 Depends

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:52 PM

It's just like i was saying in TtB's thread on solutions. We are a culture of dodging respoonsibility at all costs. We want to take all the good and reject any negatives as someone or something elses fault.


And my point is the NRA has some responsibilityto the "gun culture" of our nation.

#78 Tim the Beek

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:53 PM

If someone steals your car, and damages someone else's property, who is responsible? I'll give you a hint. It rhymes with car owner


?



#79 Depends

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:56 PM

?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1T71PGd-J0

:lmao:

#80 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:58 PM

Then she is still responsible. If he was able to steal then, she was negligent.

If someone steals your car, and damages someone else's property, who is responsible? I'll give you a hint. It rhymes with car owner


Gun owner?

#81 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:01 PM

This is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard you say.

Why dont you wait until all the facts are out before emotionally responding. which the above response sounds like. Emotion.

Something you ripped earlier.


It's not an emotional response at all. Those were her firearms. My father owned a gun safe when i was living in his home. He had a whole safe FULL of guns. I even had guns in that safe. How did I get access to them? Through my father only. He had the keys, and if I remember correctly, only my grandfather had the spare. He also had a gun safe.

She's negligent. Period.

#82 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:02 PM

And my point is the NRA has some responsibilityto the "gun culture" of our nation.


Then absolutely everyone in the country holds responibility, Culturally speaking.

#83 Depends

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:05 PM

not to speak for concert andy, but I don't think he was refering to her negligence. More that you have done what no medical professional has been able to do. You have diagnosed Adam as havine mental disabilities. I have not read anywhere that he was diagnosed. And believe me, I have followed every word since the floated the Aspergers reason.

#84 concert andy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:08 PM

It's not an emotional response at all. Those were her firearms. My father owned a gun safe when i was living in his home. He had a whole safe FULL of guns. I even had guns in that safe. How did I get access to them? Through my father only. He had the keys, and if I remember correctly, only my grandfather had the spare. He also had a gun safe.

She's negligent. Period.


She is dead. Period.

Like I said you may be right but to pass judgement is not fair to anyone.

Just like blaming the gun, blaming a dead person does nothing to help this discussion.

#85 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:09 PM

And I've said, I'm going off what we've been told. The very day this occurred and tons of false information was floated, I said the media is making a circus out of this. I read that he had issues. I'm not sayig i know anything for certain. I know nothing for certain. other than those rifles belonged to HER. How he got them is on HER.

#86 MeOmYo

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:09 PM

Then she is still responsible. If he was able to steal then, she was negligent.

If someone steals your car, and damages someone else's property, who is responsible? I'll give you a hint. It rhymes with car owner


anything to back that up? because that sounds ridiculous.

#87 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:10 PM

She is dead. Period.

Like I said you may be right but to pass judgement is not fair to anyone.

Just like blaming the gun, blaming a dead person does nothing to help this discussion.


Then why are firearms and the right to have them coming under the attack here?
It does help the discussion. It's just unfortunate that a dead woman isn't a good scapegoat to keep talking. While guns make for great controversy, in the media and politically.

#88 concert andy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:10 PM

Then absolutely everyone in the country holds responibility, Culturally speaking.


How am I responsible?

I never owned, or even handled a gun.

#89 MeOmYo

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:11 PM

there are numerous cases where children have shot and killed themselves because their parents failed to secure their firearms properly and they were not charged. How does that work?

#90 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:11 PM

What does that have to do with it, Andy? So only gun owners get blamed? WTF?

#91 concert andy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:12 PM

Then why are firearms and the right to have them coming under the attack here?
It does help the discussion. It's just unfortunate that a dead woman isn't a good scapegoat to keep talking. While guns make for great controversy, in the media and politically.


I never said anything any where about americans not allowed to buy guns, or blamed a gun.

I want to regulate the ammo. Completely different.

#92 concert andy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:13 PM

What does that have to do with it, Andy? So only gun owners get blamed? WTF?


You said everyone in america is to blame, I want to know how I fall into this broad stroke.

#93 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:13 PM

Anyway, this topic is dead. The politicians will craft their gun bans adn that will be that. Until the next degenerate idiot flies off the handle. Then we'll come back around and look to Washington again to "fix" the problem.

#94 Depends

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:13 PM

Then absolutely everyone in the country holds responibility, Culturally speaking.


Yes, to some degree. But if the NRA is going to get on their high horse and blame hollywood, video games and the like, then their own organization must hold some responsibility.

#95 hoagie

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:13 PM

This whole situation just shows that regulating guns wont stop people who want to commit crimes from getting them. A legal gun owner had a don who stole them and killed kids.



#96 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:14 PM

You said everyone in america is to blame, I want to know how I fall into this broad stroke.


The same way the NRA does in this instance. You don't really. But if we're going to exernalize blame, it falls on us all culturally.

#97 concert andy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:15 PM

And I've said, I'm going off what we've been told. The very day this occurred and tons of false information was floated, I said the media is making a circus out of this. I read that he had issues. I'm not sayig i know anything for certain. I know nothing for certain. other than those rifles belonged to HER. How he got them is on HER.



So if I owned guns, and someone broke into my house stole the guns and killed me, would it be my own fault?

PS, the guns were also locked in a safe, thieves happened to be safe breakers.

Hypothetical, but trying to use your own logic here.

#98 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:15 PM

Yes, to some degree. But if the NRA is going to get on their high horse and blame hollywood, video games and the like, then their own organization must hold some responsibility.


I dont disagree with that. It's always externalize the blame. Thats our culture.

#99 concert andy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:17 PM

I have blamed no one or a gun other than Adam, and I have not even stated that here until now.

But to blame his mother who tried repeatedly to get him help, who was shot in her head while she slept.

IMO, is just not fair. Period.

#100 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:21 PM

Stop perssonalizing all the dialogue, dude. The NATION, the media, the policitians are all blaming firearms. I never sadi YOU were blaming firearms. Although bullet regs don't really say "responsibility falls on the individual."