321 replies to this topic

[MeOmYo]

so, cars are becoming safer while crazy people remain crazy. Ok.

[JBetty]

In NY, you are required to take a course within 30 days of obtaining a pistol permit. Here, it is provided for free by the sheriff's office if that fits your schedule or you can pay for it at various other locations.

Just pistols?
What about other firearms?

[concert andy]

so, cars are becoming safer while crazy people remain crazy. Ok.

I think the point is Gun violence is on the rise, but somehow this is repeatedly disputed in this thread.

[MeOmYo]

You are not required to take a course to own a long gun in NY but you must pass an FBI background check. You are required to take a hunter safety course to obtain a hunting license and there are 3 separate courses for bow hunting, shotgun/rifle and trapping.

[syd_25]

In NY, you are required to take a course within 30 days of obtaining a pistol permit. Here, it is provided for free by the sheriff's office if that fits your schedule or you can pay for it at various other locations.

Does the NY permit allow you to purchase a pistol possibly before taking the class? And where is "here"? Cause that's awesome the sheriffs do that.

[Joker]

I think the point is Gun violence is on the rise, but somehow this is repeatedly disputed in this thread.

This seems to indicate it's on the decline

5. America is an unusually violent country. But we’re not as violent as we used to be.
Kieran Healy, a sociologist at Duke University, made this graph of “deaths due to assault” in the United States and other developed countries. We are a clear outlier.



As Healy writes, “The most striking features of the data are (1) how much more violent the U.S. is than other OECD countries (except possibly Estonia and Mexico, not shown here), and (2) the degree of change—and recently, decline—there has been in the U.S. time series considered by itself.”

[TakeAStepBack]

I think the point is Gun violence is on the rise, but somehow this is repeatedly disputed in this thread.

And yet your own posts regarding gun related deaths disputes your backtracking claim. So which is it?

[Joker]

The Declining Culture of Guns and Violence in the United States

by JOHN SIDES on JULY 21, 2012 · 122 COMMENTS
in PUBLIC OPINION,VIOLENCE

This is a guest post by political scientist Patrick Egan.
*****
The massacre unleashed by James Holmes in Aurora, Colo. shortly after midnight on Friday is a tragedy of national proportions. Like other mass shootings before it—Columbine in 1999 and Virginia Tech in 2007 come to mind—it leaves us desperate for explanations in its wake. There are those who blame our nation’s relative paucity of gun control laws and others decrying the power of the gun lobby. Cultural explanations abound, too. On the right, one Congressman has pinned the blame on long-term national cultural decline. On the left, fingers are pointed at America’s “gun-crazy” culture.

But as pundits and politicians react, they would do well to keep in mind two fundamental trends about violence and guns in America that are going unmentioned in the reporting on Aurora.

First, we are a less violent nation now than we’ve been in over forty years. In 2010, violent crime rates hit a low not seen since 1972; murder rates sunk to levels last experienced during the Kennedy Administration. Our perceptions of our own safety have shifted, as well. In the early 1980s, almost half of Americans told the General Social Survey (GSS) they were “afraid to walk alone at night” in their own neighborhoods; now only one-third feel this way.

Second, for all the attention given to America’s culture of guns, ownership of firearms is at or near all-time lows. Since 1973, the GSS has been asking Americans whether they keep a gun in their home. In the 1970s, about half of the nation said yes; today only about one-third do. Driving the decline: a dramatic drop in ownership of pistols and shotguns, the very weapons most likely to be used in violent crimes.

Gallup has been asking a similar question since 1959 and has found a less dramatic, but still unmistakable decline. The erratic behavior of the Gallup series may be driven a bit by politics; unlike the GSS its questions about gun ownership are asked directly after questions about gun control. (Not shown on the figure is Gallup’s October 2011 finding that 47 percent of Americans reported owning a gun when asked if they kept a gun “anywhere else on your property;” this time series unfortunately only extends to 1991.)

Thus long-term trends suggest that we are in fact currently experiencing a waning culture of guns and violence in the United States. This is undoubtedly helping to dampen the public’s support forboth gun control and the death penalty. There are growing partisan gaps on attitudes regarding the two policies, but enthusiasm for both has declined recently in lockstep with the drop in crime and violence. The total effects of these trends on opinion and policy remain to be seen, but one thing is clear: they defy easy ideological explanation.


http://themonkeycage...-united-states/

[TakeAStepBack]

We already have gone through this in this thread. Gun violence is on the decline. A bloomberg Govt. projection, and it is a projection, means little to absolutely nothing.

Unless we really just do not like the idea that gun violence is in decline because it bucks the agenda to further and more heavily regulate firearms.

[MeOmYo]

Does the NY permit allow you to purchase a pistol possibly before taking the class? And where is "here"? Cause that's awesome the sheriffs do that.

No. To purchase a pistol you must first pick one out, get the make model and serial number and contact the sheriff's department with that info. They will then send you a coupon with the info on it that you take to whom you are purchasing the pistol from. They fill in their info and send it back to the sheriff. You cannot get a coupon unless you complete the course.

Otsego county

[syd_25]

thank you.

[concert andy]

And yet your own posts regarding gun related deaths disputes your backtracking claim. So which is it?

This seems to indicate it's on the decline

5. America is an unusually violent country. But we’re not as violent as we used to be.
Kieran Healy, a sociologist at Duke University, made this graph of “deaths due to assault” in the United States and other developed countries. We are a clear outlier.



As Healy writes, “The most striking features of the data are (1) how much more violent the U.S. is than other OECD countries (except possibly Estonia and Mexico, not shown here), and (2) the degree of change—and recently, decline—there has been in the U.S. time series considered by itself.”

I have heard conflicting reports about this, and wanted clarification.

As this chart seems to show it is on the rise:

[PeaceFrog]

"gun related deaths," and "assault deaths" are two completely different statistics.

gun related deaths are on the rise, and assault deaths are on the decline, but can't see any correlation.

If anything, the assault rate is lower now because abortion was legalized in the mid 70s. This reduced the number of unwanted 20 year olds in the mid 90s to assault people.

So, I guess this is where we start making the Joke jokes.

[concert andy]

Gun and Ammo Sales Not Just Surging — AR Guns, Ammo and Magazines Sold Out

"We have sold over 36 assault rifles in the last three days," Martin says. "We are completely out. We sold the last one this afternoon."

Gun sales surge locally and nationally

[PeaceFrog]

yeah, I don't know what to make of it. People whom I thought were rational are now saying to arm the teachers or put an armed guard in every school.

and what if the teacher or arm guard flips out? do the kindergarten students need to be armed too?

[concert andy]

A 2011 Gallup poll estimates that 47 percent of US households own a gun.

Joker, that article strengthens my point. It shows gun ownership is around or less than 40% (in 2010) and the recent one said 47% from my quote (2011), a closer look and you might realize that shows a dramatic increase. Any increase of 5%, in my opinion is dramatic.

[TakeAStepBack]

Are we really counting accidents and suicides as firearm related deaths in this thread? That's where these statistics get all fucked up. It is not societies fault to bare the burden of accidents. Those happen. If people were a little more careful, and a lot less stupid, we wouldn't have so many. On the other hand, my 66 yr old father in law hunts with a black powder. This year he fire at a turkey with it, and the screw that hold the barrel came loose. He realized it just before firing a second shot after reloading. If he didn't realize it, he could have easily blown his face off. Accidents will happen.

Suicides aren't violent crimes and can be conducted in many ways. Guns are probably easiest. Im not saying I support suicide, but it's not against someone else nor should the figure be counted when talking about violent firearm deaths. We go on crime related incident. But those numbers dont look nearly as appealing.

[concert andy]

Are we really counting accidents and suicides as firearm related deaths in this thread? That's where these statistics get all fucked up. It is not societies fault to bare the burden of accidents. Those happen. If people were a little more careful, and a lot less stupid, we wouldn't have so many. On the other hand, my 66 yr old father in law hunts with a black powder. This year he fire at a turkey with it, and the screw that hold the barrel came loose. He realized it just before firing a second shot after reloading. If he didn't realize it, he could have easily blown his face off. Accidents will happen.

Suicides aren't violent crimes and can be conducted in many ways. Guns are probably easiest. Im not saying I support suicide, but it's not against someone else nor should the figure be counted when talking about violent firearm deaths. We go on crime related incident. But those numbers dont look nearly as appealing.

I was reading this just a moment ago on a blog so I was not going to use it as a source, but I get the drift.

How would regulating bullets going to stop suicide, all you need is one.

[concert andy]

[TakeAStepBack]

So the highest gun law states have the biggest surge in gun ownership.

[TakeAStepBack]

Based on a poll.

[capt_morgan]

bears....

[concert andy]

And the poll states that almost 1 in 2 households in america own a gun.

But joker was stating with his article and the same poll that it was declining. I merely pointing out that the article is dated, and that there is actually a surge in gun ownership.

[concert andy]

So the highest gun law states have the biggest surge in gun ownership.

Huh? What does this mean? I am pointing out the flaw in jokers article.

I thought the added detail by region was fascinating, that in the east there is a 13% increase.

[TakeAStepBack]

Those are polls, Andy.

[TakeAStepBack]

But I agree. The eastern state upswing is significant.

[capt_morgan]

everyone in long island owns a gun...yet, there has never been a school shooting here

[concert andy]

Police: L.I. teen accused of threatening to shoot up school

[concert andy]

South Dakota teen dies in shooting after arguing with friend over a paintball game

[TakeAStepBack]

New York City: Man's handgun kills him in cold blood during the night.

[concert andy]

Not sure if that is real or not, but mine have links to actual stories.

[TakeAStepBack]

Mine means nothing.

I just checked the thread thinking we were on task. I thought I'd make a funny while here.

[capt_morgan]

Police: L.I. teen accused of threatening to shoot up school

yet, there has never been a school shooting here

[PeaceFrog]

apparently he calls a change of 3 over a period of 2 years a "surge"

33 guns per household in 2010, 36 in 2012.

wow, what a surge.

(charts and graphs like that normally use a smooth line, not jagged. Your interpretation is wrong)

[TakeAStepBack]

You're derping it wrong.

[Joker]

And the poll states that almost 1 in 2 households in america own a gun.

But joker was stating with his article and the same poll that it was declining. I merely pointing out that the article is dated, and that there is actually a surge in gun ownership.

You were claiming gun violence was on the rise yet the link you posted seemed to show that to be untrue (the graph in my post #206 is from your link)

My second post (#208) was something I found pointing out that that gun ownership and violence have been declining for awhile now

First, we are a less violent nation now than we’ve been in over forty years. In 2010, violent crime rates hit a low not seen since 1972; murder rates sunk to levels last experienced during the Kennedy Administration.

I believe the surge over the last couple of years is most likely a result of people hoarding guns in anticipation of a gun ban.


Your last post with the Gallup graphs doesn't seem to address either gun violence or gun ownership and is just a poll about whether or not there's a gun on the property.

And as TASB pointed out the Bloomberg graph includes accidents as well as suicides (I read somewhere that suicides make up about half the total of all gun deaths)

[concert andy]

You were claiming gun violence was on the rise yet the link you posted seemed to show that to be untrue (the graph in my post #206 is from your link)

My second post (#208) was something I found pointing out that that gun ownership and violence have been declining for awhile now

First, we are a less violent nation now than we’ve been in over forty years. In 2010, violent crime rates hit a low not seen since 1972; murder rates sunk to levels last experienced during the Kennedy Administration.

I believe the surge over the last couple of years is most likely a result of people hoarding guns in anticipation of a gun ban.


Your last post with the Gallup graphs doesn't seem to address either gun violence or gun ownership and is just a poll about whether or not there's a gun on the property.

And as TASB pointed out the Bloomberg graph includes accidents as well as suicides (I read somewhere that suicides make up about half the total of all gun deaths)

Yes we did address my posting about gun deaths increasing briefly, the gun deaths of suicides and noted that I was not aware of this, which made it seem like gun deaths was on the rise.

The purpose of the poll was to show that the Gallop poll showed 40 ish percent in 2010, and in 2011 it was at 47%. This is a drastic increase in my books. While your article shows a POLL showing gun ownership was on a steady decline.

That is the point of the post with just the poll. Because after I posted that about in general, I found an actual chart that included 2011. You know, I did some research. Showing that, the steady decline is no longer the case, and there is actually a sharp increase in gun ownership, of 7ish %. And in the east, 13% increase of households owning guns. Still almost 1 in 2 households in America own a gun.



My point though is we should do something, and not sit here and pick holes in every idea, is the same problem we have in Washington. I figured here we could take ideas, and make them better, instead of going the same route this country has gone through for 200+ years. Watch the movie Lincoln, and it shows you that playing politics in washington has always been the same. We like to think they were better or did it better, but they did not. We just perpetuate history.

A thing TASB likes to point out is use history as a lesson. Well the lesson here is Washington politics has always been this way.

Why don't we learn from it?

That said, but with out all the hole punching, I would not have come to the following idea solution.


My plan in the end now is to tax bullets modestly (10-20% of a 4 Billion dollar industry for ammo), take that money and invest/ear mark it into mental health care for at risk people. Make gun training mandatory, including continuing gun education as part of purchasing and owning a gun. And if you just want gun training that would also be available, for a discounted rate (since this person would not actually own a gun).

I still want some kind of tracking of ammo or bullet markers to tie bullets to a gun. The loop hole is if you make your own bullets or switch out the firing mechanism that would remove the unique marking of that gun. My solution to this is: Make all the bullets you want, have fun, it is legal and no one cares enough to make that much ammo (IMO). But if you switch out the gun marker and that gun is used for a crime, and we can prove it. There would be additional charges and harsh penalties for doing so.

If you switch out the mechanism, and never commit a crime, no one will care.

[MeOmYo]

the only disagreement I have with that is that you are putting the financial burden of this issue solely on the gun owners. while I understand your reasoning of, "this will help you look better", I don't agree with it. this is everyone's problem, not just gun owners and it is unfair to "tax" people out of their rights.

[TakeAStepBack]

I'm fine with it. Considering it wont change anything and move people to press their own ammo. Avoiding the taxation almost entirely. It's like the 94 federal ban. Useless and benign legislation is superior to detrimental legislation.

Contact your rep about it, Andy.

[MeOmYo]

Although not entirely pertinent, most sportsman that I know that use their guns for hunting, press their own ammo. Not because of cost but because factory made ammo is inconsistent junk.

[TakeAStepBack]

Yep. But even those that sport shoot, press their own too. Those who commit crimes with firearms, will likely buy them off from those who take the time to press and sell them, avoiding paper trails and tax. So the tax on ammunition will likely only hinder the weekend warrior, part time enthuist or the not so bright stock piler the most.

It's just a luke warm determent. Beats saying we can't keep our semi-auto rifles.

[concert andy]

I am looking at this in a bigger picture. I am looking more at reducing criminal use of guns. Stray Bullets, store robberies, these kinds of crimes that effect everyday people too.

I am not sure this will ever stop Mass shootings because crazy is crazy, but at least we have access to help for people who have mental health issues.

While I do understand the taxing "gun owners", originally I wanted a 100% tax, so backing down to the 10% range is a step in the right direction for my plan.

[Joker]

I am looking at this in a bigger picture. I am looking more at reducing criminal use of guns. Stray Bullets, store robberies, these kinds of crimes that effect everyday people too.

I am not sure this will ever stop Mass shootings because crazy is crazy, but at least we have access to help for people who have mental health issues.

While I do understand the taxing "gun owners", originally I wanted a 100% tax, so backing down to the 10% range is a step in the right direction for my plan.

How does taxing responsible owners help reduce the criminal use of guns?

Making new laws will have very little, if any at all, affect on the criminals that break laws. No matter what percentage you choose to tax you're still just penalizing the legitimate, responsible gun owner who may need that additional money in order to survive.

[concert andy]

How does taxing responsible owners help reduce the criminal use of guns?

Making new laws will have very little, if any at all, affect on the criminals that break laws. No matter what percentage you choose to tax you're still just penalizing the legitimate, responsible gun owner who may need that additional money in order to survive.

We discussed this at length already.

Someone suggested that they would be ok with a tax on ammo, if it went towards mental health. And I liked it.



That is your opinion, not mine about new laws.


What is your solution to gun violence? Do nothing, and rely on statistics?


You over look the back end that tax money being used for mental health and gun training. The taxes will pay for these entitlement programs.

I come up with a solution and pay for it also.




Your comments do not poke holes in my idea, they imply that my solution will do nothing to change anything. Thanks for your support.

[TakeAStepBack]

I would only agree to the programs after a pilot on the tax to see what kind of revenue can be raised, and then appropriate it accordingly. I'm definitely not down witha typical LOLberal tax and spend (simultaneously) approach on this. As I indicated, you're probably not going to see the revenue on sucha move you might think you would. People will do what they can to mitigate paying the tax. Just like in any other area.

[concert andy]

That is fine, and I stated that in my post about the idea.

[concert andy]

Now while tracking bullets or whatever is seen as doing too much or there are work arounds for this.

Let's use a good example (IMO).

If you want to purchase Pseudoaphederine in this country you need to show ID. If you but more than X amount in 30 days, you will be denied.

The reason this drug has restrictions, is it is used to make meth.


Why can't there be a similar situation for ammo?

[TakeAStepBack]

People can make their own ammo.

[concert andy]

People can make their own ammo.

Really, people can make their own bullets? Wow I wish this had been mentioned a dozen or so times in this thread.

People make their own meth too...

I was using an analogy, did you not see that?

[TakeAStepBack]

It's not a very good analogy. Anyway, I'll leave you to it in here, Andy.