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Is this where I turn into a republican?


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#201 concert andy

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:20 PM

maybe capt should read the thread again cause he doesnt remember anyone being told to shut up...what he does remember is an insult directed at people who have a differing opinion on the subject. or should i just say the family forum


I was told to fuck off.

:wow:

#202 PeaceFrog

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:21 PM

as if there isnt a whole other herd right here in p&r who operates in the exactly same way.
i guess conservative shit dont stink much :dunno:


nope, they are right about everything and if you disagree with them, they take their ball and go home.

#203 capt_morgan

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:23 PM

I was told to fuck off.

:wow:


people would pay good money to have CC tell them to fuck off...you got one for free :lol:

#204 capt_morgan

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:24 PM

nope, they are right about everything and if you disagree with them, they take their ball and go home.


im not saying that...just saying these doors swing both ways and i dont appreciate the insults...no big deal

#205 PeaceFrog

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:25 PM

I do not like it, at all.

because then everyone is living off the governemtn.


well yes, everyone is collecting payments, or vouchers toward education, food, and housing from the government. I'm sure that people will not be content with the bare minimum and will be willing to work to have more.

people always want more. ok not always in every situation, but you get what I'm saying. I think most able bodied people would be unsatisfied with the bare minimum. I know I would.

#206 Joker

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:27 PM

Spidergawd thinks it's kind of like focusing on the ants in your picnic basket while virtually ignoring the fucking bear stealing your car. But Spidergawd realizes he should have done a better job of communicating that the "shut up" was mostly rhetorical. But that doesn't change Spidergawd's position, no sir.


Is it really stealing when you hand the bear the keys to the car and say take it? :P

#207 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:27 PM

I really don't want to hear a damn thing about welfare and abuses thereof. Until we put a stop to all the corporate welfare and abuse, which is exponentially higher than that of the individual programs. Many people have been utterly duped and misled into demonizing those who need these services. Some of that, I think, stems from some weird sort of jealousy, pounded into their heads by the corporate propaganda machine. Sad, really, that we're so self-centered and greedy that we can't even abide some help to folks who really need it, while mulit-billion dollar, multinational corporations run roughshod over our rights and our system.

So yeah, those who feel it necessary to ridicule and talk down to/about people who weren't bestowed the white, middle class privilege many of us are fortunate enough to enjoy, don't have the same opportunities that most of us do and are cursed with substandard education and living in an "opportunity free zone" can go ahead and kiss my ass.

I, too, am happy to contribute my share to help those who need it. I'm not prepared to sacrifice those people just because there is a small amount of abuse. As I started this diatribe, I'll say again - until corporate welfare is halted, shut the hell up about personal welfare.


Here, let me help you out.

And I'll do another favor for the thread:

Posted Image


You're welcome.

#208 Joker

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:28 PM

people would pay good money to have CC tell them to fuck off...you got one for free :lol:

He's just bragging ;)

#209 PeaceFrog

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:30 PM

all I can really say in favor of my idea is that it's geared toward equality and freedom for all, not just a few.

#210 concert andy

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:33 PM

all I can really say in favor of my idea is that it's geared toward equality and freedom for all, not just a few.


How and when do we give/collect this money to/from the government?

Logistics please.

#211 capt_morgan

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:35 PM

so one person says shut up...not even to you directly, and you lash out at everyone who doesnt agree with you? common dave...

nevermind...im sorry i tried to voice my feelings about it

#212 Spidergawd

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:35 PM

Yes, TASB, that is my opinion, and I stand by it.

And, since you posted it twice now (I think), I'll respond to Penn's statement. As I've said before, that's all well and good if you have faith that man will treat man well, fairly and kindly on their own accord. Tragically, that is not, nor has it ever, been the case. Man will take nearly every opportunity to step on/over another to the betterment of himself. That is one of the reasons government was invented, and that is the reason that a libertarian utopia, where those in need are helped through the goodness of heart and altruism of others, and companies can be trusted to do the right and honorable thing, has never existed and will never exist.

In other words, I appreciate the sentiment, and I WISH it were true, but in reality it is an impossible pipe dream.

#213 Phishfolk

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:41 PM

medicaid and social security weren't even included in the Federal budget until Nixon put it in there to make war spending look like it wasn't so big.


So the safety net is about 1/5th of the budget.

#214 PeaceFrog

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:42 PM

How and when do we give/collect this money to/from the government?

Logistics please.


As I said, not a single politician that I know of advocates this outright. However, you'll find that people here and there will say that we need to expand medicare and social security, not get rid of it.

The affordable care act was a good step in the right direction, but I think universal healthcare should be the goal. Then, after that higher education for all. It's just an idea to work toward.

#215 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:44 PM

So man is greedy and mean spirited, but government comprised of said greedy and mean spirited man, is omnipotent and will do what is right for all?
Yeah, that makes sense.

If one rejects laissez faire on account of mans fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. Ludwig von Mises

#216 Java Time

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:47 PM

Deflectionary tactics from the left...again
People cheating the gov't and the people is no better than the big corporations and politicians...

If you say there is a difference...shame on you...you are part of the problem...so really why should anyone respect anything you argue for and against.


Boo-hiss...boo-hiss :sad:

#217 Spidergawd

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:52 PM

I did not say anything about the relative morality here. I didn't say one was "better" than the other. What I am referring to is the SCALE of the abuse, and, in my opinion, that makes it an exponentially higher priority. If I'm faced with one side cheating $200 a month and the other cheating $10,000,000 a month, to me it's an easy call which one to go after first.

#218 Spidergawd

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:55 PM

So man is greedy and mean spirited, but government comprised of said greedy and mean spirited man, is omnipotent and will do what is right for all?
Yeah, that makes sense.

If one rejects laissez faire on account of mans fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. Ludwig von Mises


And so we go right back around to square one. Sorry Ludwig, I think you're wrong. At least government has some tiny bit of accountability and is somewhat in view of the citizens. I'll take my chances there, rather than rely on the disproved-for-centuries theory that everything will work out due to the generosity of others.

#219 Spidergawd

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:57 PM

Our system ain't perfect. I think on that we can all agree. But it's the only one that works.

"Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others."

#220 concert andy

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:01 PM

As I said, not a single politician that I know of advocates this outright. However, you'll find that people here and there will say that we need to expand medicare and social security, not get rid of it.

The affordable care act was a good step in the right direction, but I think universal healthcare should be the goal. Then, after that higher education for all. It's just an idea to work toward.


I am just trying to understand how it would be implemented.

I Believe you mentioned this first 3 pages ago, and I did not want to get into it, but too late now...

Something about getting it from day 1 of birth through death?

Even if there is a cut off of say 5 years old. That person does not pay in until they get a job. Could be minimum of 11 years before that kid can pay some taxes on their part time job, and more than likely they won't make enough and will get there federal taxes returned.

And when you retire, and live too 100+, you did not pay that much in taxes...

Logistics is my middle name.

#221 Spidergawd

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:07 PM

Concert Logistics Andy.

Kinda has a nice ring to it.

#222 TEO

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:10 PM

How did relying on the generosity of others work in tribal cultures? Seems it is the "western way of living" that causes much of the issues.

#223 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:15 PM

And so we go right back around to square one. Sorry Ludwig, I think you're wrong. At least government has some tiny bit of accountability and is somewhat in view of the citizens. I'll take my chances there, rather than rely on the disproved-for-centuries theory that everything will work out due to the generosity of others.


So then the greedy and mean spirited man that comprises government, is in fact omnipotent. That's interesting. Truly.

Our system ain't perfect. I think on that we can all agree. But it's the only one that works.

"Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others."


We were never set up or meant to be a democracy.

#224 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:19 PM

How did relying on the generosity of others work in tribal cultures? Seems it is the "western way of living" that causes much of the issues.


It worked just fine under anarchism of the banished quackers and hutchonsians of early colonial times as well. No government at all. Only common law. Trade was peaceful and voluntary between those in a settlement and with the Natives. it wasn't until despots saw this blasphemous behaviour that they needed to be dealt with. By killing, torturing, theft and worse.

#225 Spidergawd

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:20 PM

Interesting point Teo. You might be onto something there. Tribal cultures don't, it seems to me, lean so far toward "greed is good" stuff like ours does. But then again, for all I know, tribes did exactly the same shit that we do, only on a smaller scale.

#226 Spidergawd

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:23 PM

So then the greedy and mean spirited man that comprises government, is in fact omnipotent. That's interesting. Truly.


Not sure what you're implying. There are means within our system, whether you chose to subscribe to them or not, of preventing this "omnipotence" you speak of.

We were never set up or meant to be a democracy.


Nor were we set up or meant to be libertarian.

#227 JBetty

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:24 PM

Interesting point Teo. You might be onto something there. Tribal cultures don't, it seems to me, lean so far toward "greed is good" stuff like ours does. But then again, for all I know, tribes did exactly the same shit that we do, only on a smaller scale.




But there weren't nearly as many people populating practically every corner of the earth.
If someone didn't like where they were, they could just go out and form their own new society.
We do not have that option today.

#228 concert andy

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:24 PM

Concert Logistics Andy.

Kinda has a nice ring to it.



Thanks.

I am a math guy and the shortest path algorithm makes so much sense to me without the proof. (Dijkstra's algorithm)

I should have worked for UPS. hahaha.

#229 Java Time

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:32 PM

How did relying on the generosity of others work in tribal cultures? Seems it is the "western way of living" that causes much of the issues.


Food chain-wise? They are almost extinct and require western help.

They also had a caste system of sorts as in anywhere whereas not everyone was afforded the genorisity of others...


Its not always what it seems to be on natgeo and pbs...

Base on tribes consisting of humans :smile:

#230 Spidergawd

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:34 PM

Thanks.


Είμαι ένας άνθρωπος μαθηματικά και η συντομότερη διαδρομή αλγόριθμος κάνει τόσο πολύ νόημα για μένα χωρίς απόδειξη. (Αλγόριθμος του Dijkstra)

I should have worked for UPS. hahaha.


:lol: Mass Comm major here. Fixed to reflect how I read your quote.

#231 concert andy

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:39 PM

:lol: Mass Comm major here. Fixed to reflect how I read your quote.


Yes, this is what my wife tells me sometimes when she looks at my computer programs, or I discuss advanced Math.

#232 butterqueen

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:09 PM

Andy is terrible at spelling and grammar but could math us all under the table. If math was a verb.

#233 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:19 PM

Not sure what you're implying. There are means within our system, whether you chose to subscribe to them or not, of preventing this "omnipotence" you speak of.



Nor were we set up or meant to be libertarian.


Posted Image

#234 little frog

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:21 PM

You can still work and receive public assistance. (65% pay cut - 35% job)


unemployment insurance benefits do not offer 100% salary you were making before you were laid off. quite a bit less, actually.

ok..you're right...screw it....let's sit on our asses and not try and better ourselves on the taxpayers bill?

work, get insurance and then you don't need to worry about unemployment benefits...the assistance will help you with food and rent money if you do not make enough


just stating that the info you gave was incorrect ... your response has nothing to do with what i said. seems you are arguing with just yourself here.

#235 Tim the Beek

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:55 PM

How did relying on the generosity of others work in tribal cultures? Seems it is the "western way of living" that causes much of the issues.


Posted Image

:)

#236 Karen

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:55 PM

ok..you're right...screw it....let's sit on our asses and not try and better ourselves on the taxpayers bill?

work, get insurance and then you don't need to worry about unemployment benefits...the assistance will help you with food and rent money if you do not make enough


Sounds so simple huh? :lol:

Why oh WHY don't all the people struggling to make ends meet just realize this huh? Perhaps you could write and distribute instructions how to follow this simple plan so everyone can get all set up with everything they need.

Please note: In this particular response, I AM being sarcastic

#237 concert andy

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:13 PM

unemployment insurance benefits do not offer 100% salary you were making before you were laid off. quite a bit less, actually.



just stating that the info you gave was incorrect ... your response has nothing to do with what i said. seems you are arguing with just yourself here.


I think you are both right, just slightly off on the details.

I believe if you get laid off, and take a job making less, you could also qualify for welfare assistance (diff from unemployment).

#238 Java Time

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:28 PM

I believe if you get laid off, and take a job making less, you could also qualify for welfare assistance (diff from unemployment).


Yes...that

thought is was a given...

#239 little frog

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:29 PM

I think you are both right, just slightly off on the details.

I believe if you get laid off, and take a job making less, you could also qualify for welfare assistance (diff from unemployment).


depends on how much less .. if you are still above the poverty line (about $14,000 per year) no assistance. they are certainly not trying to get everyone up to their pre-unemployment salary, and are certainly not subsidising folks who take a new full time job.

#240 Java Time

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:31 PM

Sounds so simple huh? :lol:

Why oh WHY don't all the people struggling to make ends meet just realize this huh? Perhaps you could write and distribute instructions how to follow this simple plan so everyone can get all set up with everything they need.


I'll get right on that darlin' :cowboy:

#241 Karen

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:34 PM

I'll get right on that darlin' :cowboy:


Excellent! On the way to getting the problem solved :thup:

#242 Java Time

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:41 PM

Excellent! On the way to getting the problem solved :thup:


No...to make money off my own tax dollars by suckering the poor folk on some type of public assistance into buying it silly :smile:

#243 Java Time

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:51 PM

I think you are both right, just slightly off on the details.

I believe if you get laid off, and take a job making less, you could also qualify for welfare assistance (diff from unemployment).


Sorry folks... my cro-magnon is terriible...I sometimes have trouble expressing my thoughts :funny1:

#244 concert andy

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:06 AM

depends on how much less .. if you are still above the poverty line (about $14,000 per year) no assistance. they are certainly not trying to get everyone up to their pre-unemployment salary, and are certainly not subsidising folks who take a new full time job.


Also true, all depends on what time of the year you get the can. Early in the year you would not have accrued enough earnings and should qualify, but the later in the year, more like to get to the proverbial kiester slamming. :lol:

#245 concert andy

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:06 AM

Sorry folks... my cro-magnon is terriible...I sometimes have trouble expressing my thoughts :funny1:


No worries, I do this often.

:funny1:

#246 little frog

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:22 AM

they take into account the past 4 quarters of your employment, average them out and give you a percentage of that total. $14,000 a year for a family of four is considered poverty level and qualifying for assistance.

people you see taking advantage of the system are most likely qualifying for disability, not welfare.

#247 Java Time

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:48 AM

they take into account the past 4 quarters of your employment, average them out and give you a percentage of that total. $14,000 a year for a family of four is considered poverty level and qualifying for assistance.

people you see taking advantage of the system are most likely qualifying for disability, not welfare.


It's 35k on long island

#248 little frog

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:56 AM

you've got some pretty rich poor people out there ;)

#249 Java Time

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:00 AM

yeah...welcome to Long Island :undecided:


:funny1: errt...sad but true

#250 PeaceFrog

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:10 PM

I am just trying to understand how it would be implemented.

I Believe you mentioned this first 3 pages ago, and I did not want to get into it, but too late now...

Something about getting it from day 1 of birth through death?

Even if there is a cut off of say 5 years old. That person does not pay in until they get a job. Could be minimum of 11 years before that kid can pay some taxes on their part time job, and more than likely they won't make enough and will get there federal taxes returned.

And when you retire, and live too 100+, you did not pay that much in taxes...

Logistics is my middle name.


I think the only way it could ever happen is by lowering the age to qualify incrementally... which is exactly the opposite of what Republicans are now trying to do.

I know that this idea is radical. I know it can't be done right away... it's just a direction. Sorry if I'm not explaining my idea clearly enough.

The money would build up over time and the program would pay for itself if it was done correctly (and politicians weren't allowed to 'borrow' from it -- remember Al Gores "lockbox"). Again, small steps... just in the other direction that Republicans are pushing toward eliminating it.