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The Fiscal Cliff


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#101 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:15 PM

Oy vey

#102 PeaceFrog

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:16 PM

we're in the age of technology. this isn't 1900.

sequestration is repeating the same mistake.

#103 concert andy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:16 PM

It's not a question of faith. it's a question of accounting. If there is a way around impending disaster with tax increases, the current proposals and negotiations aren't the ones we need. Not even close. It's a nonissue. in the same fashion that taxing the rich for an additional 800 billion in revenue over ten years with 1.1 trillion (current) in annual deficits, solves the deficit problem.


In theory (again), a healthy economy will have more people paying into federal taxes.

That would increase tax revenue and we could pay off the debt.

That is why I feel a compromise is best solution.

Without that and another recession or two or three, and your vision of the future may come true.

#104 concert andy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:19 PM

So we'll put a band aid on it for now, only to come right back to the problem again in the near future. And that is why this is the definition of insanity. We keep doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result. The results are the same, we hate the idea of changing, so we do it again and hope this next time we solve the problem by doing the thing we did last time that didn't work.


The results are not always the same. (used always because that would be implied with the insanity argument).

History shows that the economy will grow again consistently eventually, not downward spiral.

To help prop it up short term, is the idea.

Again in theory.

#105 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:22 PM

Compromise to what? Neither deal accomplishes anything. So we get either 1.4 trillion in deficit reduction over ten years, or 2.2 trillion over ten years. With current explosivve deficit/debt levels, neither plan even tackles 1/4 of the deficit. So raising the base pays off the debt? That's a fine theory that has never happened in reality. Never. Even when Clinton borrowed 200 billion for his "surplus", we still added 200 billion additional debt dollars. This economy is completely artificially running on borrow/tax/debase proposals that don't work. Then we try to stimulate, that fails. Then we want to raise taxes. Then we want to....nothing ever changes. Deficits grow, debt grows, taxes/inflation hurt the Americans and we trot out the fantasy theories that never play out for another round of discourse.

#106 Tim the Beek

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:26 PM

That is your opinion that a recession will eventually happen.


It's inevitable that it will. Economies work in cycles. That's the way of them. I'm not afraid of recession.

I'm more concerned about a depression for the reasons TASB is stating. That might be avoidable if Congress and the Executive actually admit that the way out of living beyond our means for too long is feeling some pain. I don't have faith that they'll be willing to get that real...

#107 concert andy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:29 PM

Compromise to what? Neither deal accomplishes anything. So we get either 1.4 trillion in deficit reduction over ten years, or 2.2 trillion over ten years. With current explosivve deficit/debt levels, neither plan even tackles 1/4 of the deficit. So raising the base pays off the debt? That's a fine theory that has never happened in reality. Never. Even when Clinton borrowed 200 billion for his "surplus", we still added 200 billion additional debt dollars. This economy is completely artificially running on borrow/tax/debase proposals that don't work. Then we try to stimulate, that fails. Then we want to raise taxes. Then we want to....nothing ever changes. Deficits grow, debt grows, taxes/inflation hurt the Americans and we trot out the fantasy theories that never play out for another round of discourse.


I agree a better compromise is needed, but the idea is to stimulate the economy.

I disagree with the bailout working. It worked for the companies that got bailed out. Selective thinking isnt the way to go, but they fail and unemployment is even more ridiculous.

Small steps in the right direction, not a lets fix it with one swipe of the hand with one compromise.

If we can get some compromise going instead of partisan non sense, then these types of things will be common place, and things could get done.

That last piece is where I see you not believing in the system, but I am an optimist, in a real world where bad shit happens.

#108 concert andy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:32 PM

It's inevitable that it will. Economies work in cycles. That's the way of them. I'm not afraid of recession.

I'm more concerned about a depression for the reasons TASB is stating. That might be avoidable if Congress and the Executive actually admit that the way out of living beyond our means for too long is feeling some pain. I don't have faith that they'll be willing to get that real...


As always fine interjection and pointing out my slight miss communication.

Depression is a better term.

Recessions will happen, we just do not need one now, or any time in the next year or so. We want steps forward before an eventual step backwards.

#109 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:33 PM

Stimulating the economy, if it works, should have worked at least partially to it's expectations of success the last time we tried it. I don't understand how we can keep trying to do soemthing that doesn't work and then when we try and it fails the next thing to do is try it again.

#110 PeaceFrog

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:36 PM

you're working, aren't you?

The unemployment rate would be much worse if it hadn't been for the stimulus... but yeah don't let facts get in the way of your agenda to starve government of revenue.

#111 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:38 PM

"Much worse"

:lmao:

Yeah, ok. I'd like to see you go ahead and back that claim up. You can't prove a negative, capt. Hyperbole.

#112 concert andy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:43 PM

Stimulating the economy, if it works, should have worked at least partially to it's expectations of success the last time we tried it. I don't understand how we can keep trying to do soemthing that doesn't work and then when we try and it fails the next thing to do is try it again.


Where is the track record of stimulating the economy to say it does or does not work?

#113 Tim the Beek

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:49 PM

...and what the majority agrees on it what is fair.


Innocent women burned and drowned in Salem disagree.
So did slaves in the 17 and 1800's.
I could go on...

Not always, but often, what the majority decides is patently unfair...which is why, other than at the local level, I think pure democracy is dangerous.

#114 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:05 PM

Where is the track record of stimulating the economy to say it does or does not work?


Without running all over getting information, this one links up some past and present attempts at stimulus. We're going to use the term as government spending, lowering interest rates to spur borrowing (stimulus) and other measures where the govt. spends money it does not have in order to "jumpstart the economy"

http://www.commentar...story-of-folly/

The track record is discouraging. Despite Franklin Roosevelt’s aggressive spending, unemployment reached 25 percent in 1933, fell only to 14 percent by 1937, and was back up to 19 percent in 1939.12 it does not seem the likeliest explanation—it still does not offer much in the way of guidance through our current thicket. Few economists today believe the United States could tolerate the kind of budget deficits that developed during World War II, which ran more than 50 percent of gross domestic product, or about $7 trillion annually in current terms. When the federal government ramped up its spending during the war, it had not yet grown into the entitlement cash machine it is now, spitting out trillions of dollars a year in retirement and health-care benefits.
Not only was the stimulative effect of Great Depression fiscal policy non-existent, but follow-on efforts during the ten subsequent recessions proved equally ineffective. As a result of that hard-won experience, the consensus until recently among economists was that attempts at stimulus through emergency fiscal policies—as opposed to monetary policies and the automatic effects of increases in unemployment assistance and decreases in tax payments—were useless at best. Typical was the statement of Martin Eichenbaum of Northwestern University in the American Economic Review in 1997: “There is now widespread agreement that countercyclical discretionary fiscal policy is neither desirable nor politically feasible.” Martin Feldstein, then president of the National Bureau of Economic Research, agreed. Fiscal stimulus, he said in 2002, “has not contributed to economic stability and may have actually been destabilizing.”

it didn't work for FDR, and it didn't and hasn't worked in every single solitary recession we've experienced since. In fact, it's counterproductive.

#115 concert andy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:07 PM

'doh!

#116 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:16 PM

http://mercatus.org/...fiscal-stimulus

Stimulus through the decades
1953 under Dwight D. Eisenhower

(It's a trip through the history of stimulus during recessions)

Check out page 54 of 55.

#117 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:23 PM

Page 54

The last part of our report looked long and hard at the record for the U.S. economy with regard to

federal government spending and GDP growth. Our examination of numerous data points shows

that the economy responds either negatively or not at all to increased government spending,

which is to say that GDP growth does not follow stimulus spending. We found this relationship

when examining contemporaneous and lagged relationships.

To be effective as a policy tool, stimulus spending must overcome three hurdles. The first is

whether Keynesian economic theory is sound. There is considerable debate as to whether the

multiplier—the core mechanism on which stimulus spending is based—is greater than one, or

even positive. If the multiplier is less than one, then a dollar of stimulus spending would generate

less than a dollar’s worth of economic growth. The Congressional Budget Office estimated that

the long-run multiplier associated with the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009

was between 0.63 and 1.8.91

The second hurdle is timing. Even if Keynesian theory were sound, if policy makers cannot time

stimulus spending correctly, then their efforts will actually destabilize the economy by reducing

spending during recessions and increasing spending during expansions. Evidence suggests not

only that policy makers cannot get their timing right, but that this inability has been common

knowledge among policy makers for decades.

The third hurdle is reversing the stimulus spending. Even if Keynesian theory were sound and

even if policy makers could get the timing right, they would need the political will to shut off the

stimulus spending at the ends of the recessions. By definition, stimulus spending is meant as a

temporary boost to a flagging economy. When the economy picks up, the stimulus spending

should be reversed. Evidence suggests that, either from lack of political will or from a desire to

use stimulus spending as an excuse for permanent expansion of government, government

spending tends to increase more often than it decreases. Since 1950, annual per capita real

federal outlays have declined 23 times but increased 39 times, and each increase has been, on

average, 2.5 times the size of each decrease. Certainly, the government did not intend all of these

increases as stimulus spending, but the fact remains that the clear tendency is to increase rather

than to decrease spending. Focusing on discretionary spending only produces a similar story.

Since 1962, federal per capita real discretionary spending has increased 27 times but decreased

only 22 times. On average, each increase was 1.34 times the size of each decrease.



#118 Tim the Beek

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:26 PM

This thread reminded me of this video, for some reason, which is all the excuse for being the tronz ever needs:



#119 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:28 PM

That's why I'm of the thought that the government needs to balance its budget by making massive cuts. Yes, this will inevitably lead to a recession. Because the economiy is so artificially held up already, that a decrease in spending will cause a correction. There is no other way around this accounting reality. We can throw all the money we want at this problem. We can raise revenue a littel bit and continue to spend, but eventually the cows will come home to roost.

...the cows will come home to roost.... :moose:

#120 MeOmYo

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:30 PM

And cows are tasty.

#121 PeaceFrog

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:54 PM

ok I give up... democracy is bad... it's hot like a fire that we shouldn't touch (even though modern life wouldn't be possible without our ability to control and use fire to our benefit. You ride a vehicle to work which uses an internal combustion engine... but don't touch that fire!)

we're all doomed to repeat everything that happened in the 17 and 1800s (except this time with computers and internet and high speed transportation -- but it'll be exactly the same)

it's pretty sad when people don't even want to participate in their government.

#122 concert andy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:10 PM

That's why I'm of the thought that the government needs to balance its budget by making massive cuts. Yes, this will inevitably lead to a recession. Because the economiy is so artificially held up already, that a decrease in spending will cause a correction. There is no other way around this accounting reality. We can throw all the money we want at this problem. We can raise revenue a littel bit and continue to spend, but eventually the cows will come home to roost.

...the cows will come home to roost.... :moose:



Eventually is a LONG TIME from now in my opinion. Doesn't mean we should not trying until then.

But yes more should be done to ease the deficit.


PS. Hmm Cows...

Posted Image

#123 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:19 PM

Or maybe it's already too late and that's why we're seeing a political theater on taxation and spending cuts that amounts to less than a quarter of deficit spending. This is a manufactured issue as it's been for decades. At the same time, we're talking about repeating failed policies to stimulate the economy into a better standing. And worrying about the fact we arrived at this juncture due to incredible overspending, sometime later. A long time from now, or maybe not so long from now.

Your guess on when the bottom drops out is as good as mine. But if we keep building these artificial economic bubbles and bursting them, and it leads to a perfect storm that bursts the federal governments ability to mitigate the damage they self imposed, we're not going to be having a conservation over this any longer. The time to fix it will have passed.

#124 Tim the Beek

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:20 PM

Jeepers, dude. I tried, I really did. tried to read what you have to say.

Tried to disagree in a measured, respectful manner where I didn't agree.

And I got back convoluted misinterpretation and sarcasm.

At least each time I think we might be able to actually have a grown up discussion, I learn the same lesson more quickly. Until I try again.

:rolleyes: <--- in part, at myself

"it's pretty sad when people don't even want to participate in their government."

I do. Just not in the way you want me to.

Not going to try to explain any of this further. Some things are worth a headache...not this though....

#125 concert andy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:26 PM

Or maybe it's already too late and that's why we're seeing a political theater on taxation and spending cuts that amounts to less than a quarter of deficit spending. This is a manufactured issue as it's been for decades. At the same time, we're talking about repeating failed policies to stimulate the economy into a better standing. And worrying about the fact we arrived at this juncture due to incredible overspending, sometime later. A long time from now, or maybe not so long from now.

Your guess on when the bottom drops out is as good as mine. But if we keep building these artificial economic bubbles and bursting them, and it leads to a perfect storm that bursts the federal governments ability to mitigate the damage they self imposed, we're not going to be having a conservation over this any longer. The time to fix it will have passed.


Or may be not.

I do not see the bottom dropping out. It did is 2008 and we are trying to get back to whatever is normal, and with the economy showing life.

But I do not think it is too late or too far gone.

#126 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:26 PM

We all do it. I have no idea why i do it. Ever since MeowMeow asked me why, I still have no rationale answer. It's like, maybe today is the day that we'll get passed it. But that never happens. It's always weird guy at the party who buts in.

It's like you know he's at the party. You can't manage to keep the guy out. When he shows up and is visibly spotted, everyone is like "shhh....scattered, here comes derp to completely derail discussion."

#127 Joker

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:28 PM

Jeepers, dude. I tried, I really did. tried to read what you have to say.

Tried to disagree in a measured, respectful manner where I didn't agree.

And I got back convoluted misinterpretation and sarcasm back.

At least each time I think we might be able to actually have a grown up discussion, I learn the same lesson more quickly. Until I try again.

:rolleyes: <--- in part, at myself

"it's pretty sad when people don't even want to participate in their government."

I do. Just not in the way you want me to.

Not going to try to explain any of this further. Some things are worth a headache...not this though....


Dude you were so close. Try it one more time, you're sure to win this time.

Posted Image

#128 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:34 PM

Or may be not.

I do not see the bottom dropping out. It did is 2008 and we are trying to get back to whatever is normal, and with the economy showing life.

But I do not think it is too late or too far gone.


OK, maybe we can will away clear mathematical inevitablility. If we continue to overspend, we will continue to be downgraded. That downgrading will begin to curtail borrowing. That inability to borrow means a few things that the federal government has left in its arsenal to continue spending. More tax increases, or more monetary inflation. If these measures, along with what I predict to be some of the worst govt. protectionist policies in history, fail to keep the outlays rolling. We're going to see what sequestration is really all about.

But I am clearly not of the opinion that we can will this disaster away with optimism.

#129 concert andy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:50 PM

OK, maybe we can will away clear mathematical inevitablility. If we continue to overspend, we will continue to be downgraded. That downgrading will begin to curtail borrowing. That inability to borrow means a few things that the federal government has left in its arsenal to continue spending. More tax increases, or more monetary inflation. If these measures, along with what I predict to be some of the worst govt. protectionist policies in history, fail to keep the outlays rolling. We're going to see what sequestration is really all about.

But I am clearly not of the opinion that we can will this disaster away with optimism.


While I agree more needs to be done to lower the deficit (or nothing in this case and letting us go over the CLIFF which will force some relief).

This is where we diverge.

In either scenario I think we will be ok. You do not.

The accounting looks bad, but this country is not going anywhere anytime soon. So if the worst happens like you imply, we will be ok then too.

My point is long term we will be ok, we will one day have a budget with a surplus. And working together until then is the only rational solution.

This is what I mean when I get snarky by saying you think the sky is falling. Today is bad yes, but it will be ok.

I know you do not like that or understand how I could think it will be ok, but I do. I know optimism isn't the answer, but I believe in the system and the US as an entity long term. I see it like an equity that drops like Apple. In the 70-80's they were big, then nothing only to come back and rule the world. May be a bad analogy.

Our deficit is large, but who is to say in 20 or more years from now we have not fixed this.

I just think your view is a little short sighted.

I think long term we will be fine.

#130 Tim the Beek

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:03 PM

Andy -

I'm not TASB, but I'll kick in my $.13 (approximately what it would take to buy what $.02 would have in the year I was born).

It's not that the problems we have are necessarily impossible* to fix...but I very much question the will of the powers that be to call for the necessary sacrifices it would take to do so, both on the revenue and spending sides.



*but it's damn close, liabilities (including the unfunded ones) being something like 4 times GDP is a pretty scary ratio to me.

#131 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:06 PM

My view is short sighted.

Our deficit is large, but who is to say in 20 or more years from now we have not fixed this.

History stoppped by. Told me that the debt has grown every year for over 60 years. Also told me that deficits have been growing steadily for years. That we've been downgraded in international creditors twice. That we've seen more growth in govt. budget than cuts, to the tune of almost two to one, and each one on average is 2.5 times that of the cuts made.

I didn't say "the sky is falling" and if warning people of impending danger makes me a chicken little, fine. I'll except that. But by no means is my view short sighted.

I'm providing evidence to support my position that this is all a big theater adn that no fix is on the table at all, or probably ever will be on the table.

Meanwhile you think we'll be fine. Long term.

I think we;'ve ran this ones course all the way.

#132 concert andy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:14 PM

My view is short sighted.

Our deficit is large, but who is to say in 20 or more years from now we have not fixed this.

History stoppped by. Told me that the debt has grown every year for over 60 years. Also told me that deficits have been growing steadily for years. That we've been downgraded in international creditors twice. That we've seen more growth in govt. budget than cuts, to the tune of almost two to one, and each one on average is 2.5 times that of the cuts made.

I didn't say "the sky is falling" and if warning people of impending danger makes me a chicken little, fine. I'll except that. But by no means is my view short sighted.

I'm providing evidence to support my position that this is all a big theater adn that no fix is on the table at all, or probably ever will be on the table.

Meanwhile you think we'll be fine. Long term.

I think we;'ve ran this ones course all the way.


I agree with you in general that more should be done. And your points on spending, and the article are evidence to support this.

I just think we had these same issues in the 70', 80's, 90's and 2000's, but somehow we are still here today?

May be it is and I am being short sighted. I just believe it will be ok. May be that is like trying to make an Atheist believe in god because I do.

And I never said you said the sky is falling, I said I say that about your opinion when I get snarky.

That is ok to disagree, and discussing further will not help see the others point and will just simply agree to disagree.


Tim, I agree 100%. I think H bush was the last president with balls to actually raise taxes because that is what the public needed. It cost him the election, but it is what was needed at the time.

More people in congress should do what it right, not what will get them re-elected.

#133 concert andy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:20 PM

I do not want to get into a tit for tat, but that statement is in general of the last 60 years


U.S. Posted Budget Surplus of $59.1 Billion in April (2012)

What about this chart it shows last 60 years and there were a couple of surplus's?

A tiny one at end of 60's and the 1990's.

http://en.wikipedia....901_to_2006.svg

Posted Image

In comparison to the Depression, the debt rate is not nearly as bad as you state.

This is why I have some confidence.

#134 concert andy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:24 PM

http://www.washingto...bamas-deficits/

Posted Image

Posted Image

#135 concert andy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:25 PM

Notice how small the portion of debt the much maligned TARP bailout accounts for the debt?

This is why I say this may be a successful use of funds. May be.

And please notice the Bush tax cuts are what all the hub bub with congress is about. Raise those taxes and we could see relief.

#136 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:29 PM

Posted Image

I think I'd like to know where that graph was sourced. Because the St.LFed thinks different.
ns as for Clinton's surplus, it was borrowed. The amount still shows up in the debt.


And please notice the Bush tax cuts are what all the hub bub with congress is about. Raise those taxes and we could see relief.

Those tax cuts were for everyone. not just the rich. So the fiscal cliff lets them expire on everyone, yet noone wants that. They want to target one group and claim 80 billion a year in extra revenue.

1.1 trillion
Minus
80 billion.

#137 Tim the Beek

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:29 PM

And please notice the Bush tax cuts are what all the hub bub with congress is about. Raise those taxes and we could see relief.


A portion of them, yep.

Don't think we'll see relief without both higher taxes and considerable cuts in spending.

#138 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:41 PM

A portion of them, yep.

Don't think we'll see relief without both higher taxes and considerable cuts in spending.


And the so called fiscal cliff that everyone is all shook up over offers both. Sure, not nearly enough spending cuts for my liking, but it is cuts all the same, and tax rates go up on everyone. So both sides get something and we get a nice neat bitch slap to feel the burn of the overspending we've allow washington officials to undertake. Which is why I think it's the best deal we're going to get on this for right now.

#139 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:44 PM

The hope, is that the pinch is severe enough to have people start realizing that the longer we wait to get this situation under control, the harsher the pinch will be. Perhaps we start taking it seriously as citizens and hold these politicians feet to the fire. As history tells me, that's the best hope we've got for ever correcting the problem.

#140 concert andy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:47 PM

Posted Image

I think I'd like to know where that graph was sourced. Because the St.LFed thinks different.
ns as for Clinton's surplus, it was borrowed. The amount still shows up in the debt.


And please notice the Bush tax cuts are what all the hub bub with congress is about. Raise those taxes and we could see relief.

Those tax cuts were for everyone. not just the rich. So the fiscal cliff lets them expire on everyone, yet noone wants that. They want to target one group and claim 80 billion a year in extra revenue.

1.1 trillion
Minus
80 billion.


I posted the link, it is from wikipedia.

I am ok with paying more in taxes, but it will hurt economy.



A portion of them, yep.

Don't think we'll see relief without both higher taxes and considerable cuts in spending.


Agreed,


Posted Image

#141 concert andy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:48 PM

The hope, is that the pinch is severe enough to have people start realizing that the longer we wait to get this situation under control, the harsher the pinch will be. Perhaps we start taking it seriously as citizens and hold these politicians feet to the fire. As history tells me, that's the best hope we've got for ever correcting the problem.



How do we actually do this though?

#142 concert andy

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:49 PM

And the so called fiscal cliff that everyone is all shook up over offers both. Sure, not nearly enough spending cuts for my liking, but it is cuts all the same, and tax rates go up on everyone. So both sides get something and we get a nice neat bitch slap to feel the burn of the overspending we've allow washington officials to undertake. Which is why I think it's the best deal we're going to get on this for right now.


Agreed, I just want more done by them, and I do not care if fear is the reasoning behind it.

#143 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:52 PM

Well, lets put it this way. The the last congress, before the election was rated at an all time low! All time! And then guess what, almost every single one was reseated throught he vote. Including the current administration. Which promised to cut the deficit in half the first term.

Fire these assholes, is my only hope. And keep firing every asshole that lies and breaks their promises, goes back on their word or makes terrible mistakes.

#144 Tim the Beek

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:01 PM

And the so called fiscal cliff that everyone is all shook up over offers both. Sure, not nearly enough spending cuts for my liking, but it is cuts all the same, and tax rates go up on everyone. So both sides get something and we get a nice neat bitch slap to feel the burn of the overspending we've allow washington officials to undertake. Which is why I think it's the best deal we're going to get on this for right now.


I don't disagree...though I have concerns about the chimp-screaming media hype which doubtlessly would, and the financial panic which very likely might, ensue.

Which might be a little selfish of me, but I'm a prick that way. :)

#145 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:07 PM

I think a lot of people are looking at their own interests on this. Both sides and individuals. That is why I have so little confidence that we'll ever manage to tackle this problem before it runs away from us. Historically speaking, humans have this incredible ability to avoid hardship of any kind anyway we they can until there is absolutely not an inch of wiggle room left and the hardship is forced. Whether through the laws of physics, or through economic laws or what have you.

It's also usually what brings on the absolute worst scenario of a situation. Because we put it off, him and haw, look for anything we can do to try and get instant gratification and then WHAMMY!

Posted Image

#146 Tim the Beek

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:19 PM

Yup. I just want a coupla months to tie some things up in my old life before it all goes to shit. :mrgreen:

#147 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:23 PM

Hard to say when. So , you better get moving. :D

#148 PeaceFrog

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:34 PM

you're like this kid:



#149 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:04 PM

Smart kid.

#150 PeaceFrog

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:55 PM

yeah, he's a genius just like you.