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Obama 'drone-warfare rulebook' condemned by human rights groups


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#101 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:17 PM

Interesting article, Hoag. Seems like he's saying that one can revoke consent, but in the next breath he discusses working within the system, as I advocate. To me, that's basically consenting.


I read it that you CAN revoke consent, but try feeding yourself or going to work without using public roads (that you never consented to building). You would starve. It's a "join us or die" system, that can only be changed by gaming it. You cant just "not vote" because your day to day life implys consent, regardless.

#102 Spidergawd

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:19 PM

I read it that you CAN revoke consent, but try feeding yourself or going to work without using public roads (that you never consented to building). You would starve. It's a "join us or die" system, that can only be changed by gaming it. You cant just "not vote" because your day to day life implys consent, regardless.


Well said. Whether you like it or not, there it is.

#103 MeOmYo

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:19 PM

There's plenty that can be done to work to change things without participating in a voting/political/economic system one feels is wrong and broken. :)


I'm curious what those things are. As I understand things, in order to create change, participation is required in our system. It makes sense to me that the vultures in gov't couldn't care less if less people participate as it would make things easier for them.

#104 Spidergawd

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:20 PM

It makes sense to me that the vultures in gov't couldn't care less if less people participate as it would make things easier for them.


Yes! I hadn't thought of that.

#105 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:21 PM

Stop feeding into it. But to turn it back on the voters and call evil is just as bad as placing blame to make you feel better.

You call it blame, I call it accountablility. Basically, you're an accessory, and complacent to murder and war crimes. Unfortunately, it doesn't make me feel any better on any level. It;s just the truth.

#106 Tim the Beek

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:23 PM

People who vote for evil are evil. That may make me a coward for not conforming, but it also doesn't make any of you any less evil.


We do disagree on this, brehm. I make decisions every day which to a greater or lesser extent play into hands of or support that which I think is evil...with the food I eat, the clothes I wear, the fuel I put in cars, etc. I'm tryin' to do fewer of those things as time goes on, and they pain me, but I don't think I'm evil. Nor do I think JP is. Or Andy, or Hoagie, or...I disagree with them vehemently on some stuff, but I don't think they're bad people. I surely hope they feel the same of me.

#107 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:23 PM

And we're keeping 10,000 troops in Afghan following the "withdraw" date. Perhaps to guard the poppy fields and have soldiers be cannon fodder for resource interests.

YES WE DID!!

#108 Tim the Beek

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:27 PM

I'm curious what those things are. As I understand things, in order to create change, participation is required in our system. It makes sense to me that the vultures in gov't couldn't care less if less people participate as it would make things easier for them.


Voting for the people who are controlling your life and participating in the system are two different things to me. You can write letters, participate in local politics, make "good" purchasing decisions, plant a garden, talk with people to try to change their views...all manner of things, without playing the game of picking which corporate-owned master is "in charge."

#109 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:31 PM

We do disagree on this, brehm. I make decisions every day which to a greater or lesser extent play into hands of or support that which I think is evil...with the food I eat, the clothes I wear, the fuel I put in cars, etc. I'm tryin' to do fewer of those things as time goes on, and they pain me, but I don't think I'm evil. Nor do I think JP is. Or Andy, or Hoagie, or...I disagree with them vehemently on some stuff, but I don't think they're bad people. I surely hope they feel the same of me.


I don't think they are bad people either. But that doesn't make their decisiion to vote favorably for murder any less of what it is. And this isn't directed at simply those in this thread. It goes out to the 50% of the turned out voting block that cast their vote favorable to these policies.

#110 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:32 PM

Voting for the people who are controlling your life and participating in the system are two different things to me. You can write letters, participate in local politics, make "good" purchasing decisions, plant a garden, talk with people to try to change their views...all manner of things, without playing the game of picking which corporate-owned master is "in charge."


Dont forget run for office....

#111 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:33 PM

I don't think they are bad people either. But that doesn't make their decisiion to vote favorably for murder any less of what it is.


Why dont you twist words even further? :lol:

#112 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:35 PM

I read it that you CAN revoke consent, but try feeding yourself or going to work without using public roads (that you never consented to building). You would starve. It's a "join us or die" system, that can only be changed by gaming it. You cant just "not vote" because your day to day life implys consent, regardless.


I didn't consent to building the forest or the ocean either, but there they are. I'm not a slave, dude.

"You can use the roads, but you first must vote for one of these fucktards that will ruin your country."

No thanks. And I'll use what resources are available.

#113 Tim the Beek

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:35 PM

Dont forget run for office....


...participate in local politics



#114 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:36 PM

I didn't consent to building the forest or the ocean either, but there they are.


Really, you're going with this arguement?

:lol: maybe its a good thing you abstain from voting :lol:

#115 Tim the Beek

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:38 PM

TEO, on the other hand, is evil. <3

#116 MeOmYo

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:39 PM

Voting for the people who are controlling your life and participating in the system are two different things to me. You can write letters, participate in local politics, make "good" purchasing decisions, plant a garden, talk with people to try to change their views...all manner of things, without playing the game of picking which corporate-owned master is "in charge."


Agreed. I think there is a grey area in there where some things may work towards system change and some things work towards personal separation. While personal separation may be good for the individual, it does nothing towards improving the system.

#117 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:39 PM

What argument? Your argument is that I can't use the roads because i revoked my consent to be governed by the murderous crooks you voted for.

Is that really the argument you're going with here?

#118 MeOmYo

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:40 PM

What argument? Your argument is that I can't use the roads because i revoked my consent to be governed by the murderous crooks you voted for.

Is that really the argument you're going with here?


you can use the roads as long as you keep paying taxes :lol:

#119 concert andy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:41 PM

I'm curious what those things are. As I understand things, in order to create change, participation is required in our system. It makes sense to me that the vultures in gov't couldn't care less if less people participate as it would make things easier for them.


Unless you would have voted for the loser.

#120 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:42 PM

What argument? Your argument is that I can't use the roads because i revoked my consent to be governed by the murderous crooks you voted for.

Is that really the argument you're going with here?


No, my p[oint is that every time you use public roads, you are implying consent. So find a new way to get to work (to not pay the taxes you should be, that you probably owe)....which should illustrate how the ONLY way to change the system is from within, NOT from not voting, breh. You already consent by way of just going about your life....and thats it where we are at. You can deny it, but there it is.

#121 concert andy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:44 PM

Stop feeding into it. But to turn it back on the voters and call evil is just as bad as placing blame to make you feel better.

You call it blame, I call it accountablility. Basically, you're an accessory, and complacent to murder and war crimes. Unfortunately, it doesn't make me feel any better on any level. It;s just the truth.


Does that make you feel better? To blame someone?

But you are not accountable?

Can you please quote correctly so we know who you are quoting? You have been here forever playa, now you start making up your own way to post?

#122 MeOmYo

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:46 PM

Unless you would have voted for the loser.


I also believe that as long as people continue to believe it is a Republican vs Democrat race, they both win and therefore are no losers.

#123 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:46 PM

No one said anything about A) not being part of the authoritied coercion you voted for B) knowing that said coercion still has me enslaved by mob rule mentality, or C) that not voting along with other murder accessories will change the system.

I already said it's broken and can not be fix. Ever. Go ahead and try. Or keep voting for murder. Whatever you want to do. I make no implications by living in a system I am no longer in consent of, even though enslaved to it, about my consent. We've gone over this. You're arguing off some logical fallacy. Breh.

#124 concert andy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:46 PM

I didn't consent to building the forest or the ocean either, but there they are. I'm not a slave, dude.

"You can use the roads, but you first must vote for one of these fucktards that will ruin your country."

No thanks. And I'll use what resources are available.


I didn't consent to the sun, but it is there. I am not a slave, playa.

#125 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:48 PM

Does that make you feel better? To blame someone?

But you are not accountable?

Can you please quote correctly so we know who you are quoting? You have been here forever playa, now you start making up your own way to post?


The quote function doesn't always work.

#126 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:49 PM

" I make no implications by living in a system I am no longer in consent of, even though enslaved to it, about my consent."

:facepalm:

You imply consent by not leaving. By driving on public roads. By following the law.

#127 concert andy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:49 PM

No one said anything about A) not being part of the authoritied coercion you voted for B) knowing that said coercion still has me enslaved by mob rule mentality, or C) that not voting along with other murder accessories will change the system.

I already said it's broken adn can not be fix. Ever. Go ahead and try. Or keep voting for murder. Whatever you want to do. I make no implications by living in a system I am no longer in consent of, even though enslaved to it, about my consent. We've gone over this. You're arguing off some logical fallacy. Breh.


A). Cop out. You sound like a five year old who does not know how to share. Now go back to your room and play with all the toys by yourself. since you do not want anyone else to play with your toys.
B ) You live in a world of 7 billion people, get used to it.
C) May be in Fantasy Land.

The system is broke, but to use the go ahead and vote for murder might be the dumbest thing I ever heard.

I didn't vote for the serial killer, but he still kills. I did not vote for him, so he won't kill me. That is what your logic sounds like to me.

#128 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:50 PM

I didn't consent to the sun, but it is there. I am not a slave, playa.


So stay in doors during the day or wear sunglasses. Did you vote for the sun?

#129 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:52 PM

I make no implications by living in a system I am no longer in consent of, even though enslaved to it, about my consent. We've gone over this.


Talk about a paradox...

#130 concert andy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:52 PM

So stay in doors during the day or wear sunglasses. Did you vote for the sun?


No, what I am doing is poking holes in what you think is sound logic.

#131 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:53 PM

A). You live in a world of 7 billion people, get used to it.
B) ????
C) May be in Fantasy Land.

The system is broke, but to use the go ahead and vote for murder might be the dumbest thing I ever heard.

I didn't vote for the serial killer, but he still kills. I did not vote for him, so he won't kill me. That is what your logic sounds like to me.


You voted for murder. Although if not the president of the USA, I'd be willing to bet as a citizen his actions would plant him there. Either that or a terrorist.

If you really think I believe that your dear leader wouldn't put me on his kill list because I did not consent, you're not very good at comprehension.

#132 concert andy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:53 PM

So stay in doors during the day or wear sunglasses. Did you vote for the sun?


I didn't vote for the moon, but it causes hide tides. I did not vote for high tides.

#133 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:54 PM

No, what I am doing is poking holes in what you think is sound logic.


You'd have to use some logic here in order to do that.

#134 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:55 PM

You'd have to use some logic here in order to do that.



:facepalm:

#135 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:55 PM

I didn't vote for the moon, but it causes hide tides. I did not vote for high tides.


So, move inland.File a petition. But if you think you're some how making me look silly, you're sadly mistaken.

#136 concert andy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:55 PM

You voted for murder. Although if not the president of the USA, I'd be willing to bet as a citizen his actions would plant him there. Either that or a terrorist.

If you really think I believe that your dear leader wouldn't put me on his kill list because I did not consent, you're not very good at comprehension.


You know what I voted for. Every president has blood on their hands. And all the people who voted for them have blood on their hands too.

Obama - this thread, drones
Bush - Iraq
Clinton - Black Hawk Down
Bush - Dessert Storm
Reagan - Grenada
Carter - Iran hostages
Ford - Vietnam
Nixon - Vietnam
LBJ - Vietnam


So keep telling yourself this is a new thing, and that I voted for a murder. Every president has power to murder or loss of life.

#137 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:56 PM

So, move inland.File a petition. But if you think you're some how making me look silly, you're sadly mistaken.


You are doing that fine all by yourself.

#138 Tim the Beek

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:56 PM

Agreed. I think there is a grey area in there where some things may work towards system change and some things work towards personal separation. While personal separation may be good for the individual, it does nothing towards improving the system.


Not directly, but I think if people see, ask questions about and learn from some of the "personal separation" changes, they might have a positive indirect effect.

#139 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:58 PM

Read it again, Hoagie. Maybe this time reading comprehension will kick in and you can stop the treadmill talk.

The idea of consent goes back to Locke, or before, and is enshrined in the Declaration of Independence. I see nothing wrong with the notion. By withdrawing one's consent, one simply decides not to volunteer to participate in a system he feels is unjust. That doesn't mean that he won't be governed by coercion

#140 concert andy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:58 PM

So, move inland.File a petition. But if you think you're some how making me look silly, you're sadly mistaken.


You'd have to use some logic here in order to do that.



These are reason why I take shots at you. Like you think the sky is falling. Fiat money. What ever else you think you are smarter than everyone else.

You can not have a legit conversation with you, because you throw in 1 potato jokes, or use the most asinine logic ever. But you keep on doing your thing. The world need people like you, for what? I have no idea.

#141 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:00 PM

You know what I voted for. Every president has blood on their hands. And all the people who voted for them have blood on their hands too.

Obama - this thread, drones
Bush - Iraq
Clinton - Black Hawk Down
Bush - Dessert Storm
Reagan - Grenada
Carter - Iran hostages
Ford - Vietnam
Nixon - Vietnam
LBJ - Vietnam


So keep telling yourself this is a new thing, and that I voted for a murder. Every president has power to murder or loss of life.


OK, so you're all bloodied up already so screw it. Fine by me. I alreadty said do whatever you want. It seems to me you just want to somehow justify the fact that you voted for murder. Go ahead and do that too, if it makes you feel good. But you still voted for murder.

#142 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:00 PM

By withdrawing one's consent, one simply decides not to volunteer to participate in a system he feels is unjust.


You volunteer to participate, just not at the voting poll. Your choice. I dont see how you are helping anyone but yourself that way.

#143 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:01 PM

These are reason why I take shots at you. Like you think the sky is falling. Fiat money. What ever else you think you are smarter than everyone else.

You can not have a legit conversation with you, because you throw in 1 potato jokes, or use the most asinine logic ever. But you keep on doing your thing. The world need people like you, for what? I have no idea.


Blah blah blah. You voted for murder. I did not.

#144 Tim the Beek

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:01 PM

So keep telling yourself this is a new thing, and that I voted for a murder. Every president has power to murder or loss of life.


"Same as it ever was," isn't a sufficient excuse to keep doing it for me. Not by a longshot.

#145 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:01 PM

OK, so you're all bloodied up already so screw it. Fine by me. I alreadty said do whatever you want. It seems to me you just want to somehow justify the fact that you voted for murder. Go ahead and do that too, if it makes you feel good. But you still voted for murder.


:facepalm:

maybe you really should just KYS and get it all over with?

#146 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:02 PM

You volunteer to participate, just not at the voting poll. Your choice. I dont see how you are helping anyone but yourself that way.


Whatever you say. It's not voluntary participation. But this is really getting boring. So yes. You're so right, Hoag!! Thanks for clearing it up!

#147 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:05 PM

It's not voluntary participation.


right, so how is not voting "revoking consent" when the vote really has no bearing on anything.

How do you revoke consent at this point, is my point.

#148 concert andy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:06 PM

OK, so you're all bloodied up already so screw it. Fine by me. I alreadty said do whatever you want. It seems to me you just want to somehow justify the fact that you voted for murder. Go ahead and do that too, if it makes you feel good. But you still voted for murder.


No. I took blame for this on numerous occasions, guess you skipped over those response. In whatever reasoning you want to do, I am fine with the blame. So what.

Does this make you happy? Or does this upset you more.

#149 concert andy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:10 PM

"Same as it ever was," isn't a sufficient excuse to keep doing it for me. Not by a longshot.


So says you. I am sorry I do not know all the presidents before this, but 50's was korea?
40's was WWII
20's was WWI
1860 civil war.

My point is there is blood on even the most memorable presidents of all time. Lincoln was president during the civil war.

My point is blood is on every presidents hand in one way or another.

I accept it, the world is fucked up.

How do you say we make sure this does not happen again.

I agreed with most of your earlier points, but I vehemently disagree with this.

This is the system we were born into. I have no say on how things go down, or day to day decisions. That is why we elect people to do, make those decisions. Do they make poor decisions. Hell yes. But to say I was making an excuse is wrong. I accept the system, the world and everything else for the way it is.

#150 concert andy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:15 PM

Blah blah blah. You voted for murder. I did not.


I can not believe I am wasting my time trying to have a reasonable, logical debate with you. So please, expect shots taken at every possible chance I get. Because that is all you are doing now. Hiding behind some BS reasoning.


I did not vote, so it is all of your fault. Hahaha, I am over laughing at you for choosing a turn sandwich. I did not choose either so I am better than you.

TASB, I am so pissed off at you right now. I am trying very hard not to say outright mean things, or physically threaten you.