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Obama 'drone-warfare rulebook' condemned by human rights groups


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#51 Tim the Beek

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:05 PM

I agree, but why didn't the Right or Romney make it an issue? May be because they knew the saving a soldier's life during the election is paramount, and this was easier to attack when a soldier's life is not as important, when getting elected is not as issue. That is what I think. Awful that this is the way politics works.


I think it has very little to do with soldiers' lives, and more to do with a combination of religious crusade, a misunderstanding of what patriotism is, and it being in some of their donors' interests to keep the predators doing what they do.

#52 Joker

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:14 PM

I agree, but why didn't the Right or Romney make it an issue? May be because they knew the saving a soldier's life during the election is paramount, and this was easier to attack when a soldier's life is not as important, when getting elected is not as issue. That is what I think. Awful that this is the way politics works.

What difference does it make why the Right and Romney didn't make it an issue?

That doesn't justify anything the Left and Obama does no matter how much you want it to.

Politics works like this because people choose to vote for their TEAM no matter what, to the detriment of the rest of us.

THAT is what's awful

#53 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:22 PM

I don't always count. But when i do, I count to potato.

#54 concert andy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:24 PM

I think it has very little to do with soldiers' lives, and more to do with a combination of religious crusade, a misunderstanding of what patriotism is, and it being in some of their donors' interests to keep the predators doing what they do.


Agreed. I am only connecting logical dots. That is what I do. I look at it and try to connect the dots logically, until I am logic dictates otherwise.

What difference does it make why the Right and Romney didn't make it an issue?

That doesn't justify anything the Left and Obama does no matter how much you want it to.

Politics works like this because people choose to vote for their TEAM no matter what, to the detriment of the rest of us.

THAT is what's awful


Joker, I agree with you on the issue at hand, which is unusual.

Where we differ is you are out raged, and I say why the outrage now.

That is that way Politics works in a two party system. Pick the big things, and deal with the other stuff that you do not agree with because the turd sandwich won doesn't mean I am now responsible for everything he does. The giant douche could have won, and kept doing the same thing, and then would blame Obama for starting this mess. blah blah blah ...

The thing Carlin did say that was correct in his diatribe on not voting, is the system is made up of dumb fuckers like us, me included.

#55 Joker

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:46 PM

My "outrage" didn't just start now.

This system remains two parties because the Dems and Reps have pretty much made it impossible to have a viable third party candidate. As long as we allow them to make their own rules it'll always be the douche/turd option and we the people are the one's getting fucked.

Like it or not if you vote for them then, yes, you do bear responsibility for what your candidate does. Especially if you voted knowing where they stand.

#56 concert andy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:51 PM

My "outrage" didn't just start now.

This system remains two parties because the Dems and Reps have pretty much made it impossible to have a viable third party candidate. As long as we allow them to make their own rules it'll always be the douche/turd option and we the people are the one's getting fucked.

Like it or not if you vote for them then, yes, you do bear responsibility for what your candidate does. Especially if you voted knowing where they stand.


so hate the game and the playas too?


Like it or not I had no say in how things go down in politics. But blame me because I openly voted for Obama, so since he sucks, I suck. OK. Thanks. I will still have a nice day.

#57 Joker

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:03 PM

But you DO have a say, you can choose not to vote for those that pull this type of shit. if enough people would do that then maybe things really would "change"

Do you really not see how you bear some responsibility for putting him in office when you chose to cast your vote to put him in office?

Did I say you suck or are you just putting words in my mouth?

#58 concert andy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:10 PM

But you DO have a say, you can choose not to vote for those that pull this type of shit. if enough people would do that then maybe things really would "change"


No I do not. I live in a Blue state. My vote would have been lost in the shuffle if I voted any other way. The system sucks, I cant change it.

Is TASB absolved from responsibility for not voting? I am confused.

Do you really not see how you bear some responsibility for putting him in office when you chose to cast your vote to put him in office?


No, what if I voted for Romney. Does that make it better? My vote was wasted on the loser. What if I voted for Gary? Did that change anything?


Did I say you suck or are you just putting words in my mouth?


No, I suck. I agree.

#59 concert andy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:12 PM

Oh and PS, voting is not going to change anything. They have been spewing change since I can remember Reagan speaking this in 1979, when I was 7.

#60 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:36 PM

Is TASB absolved from responsibility for not voting? I am confused.

Yes, he is. He also stated clearly that he has revoked his consent to be governed by crooks, murders and swindlers. I did not vote for the lesser of two evils. Not responsible for evil.

When more people wake up from this tyranical nightmare and start revoking their consent, maybe I'll take some initiative to participate in this supposed democratically elected representative government. I'm not holding my breath though.

#61 concert andy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:43 PM

Is TASB absolved from responsibility for not voting? I am confused.

Yes, he is. He also stated clearly that he has revoked his consent to be governed by crooks, murders and swindlers. I did not vote for the lesser of two evils. Not responsible for evil.



What ever state you are in, you are still represented by the people you did not vote for. And you a citizen of this country,.

So say hypothetically you get screwed by the government (however arrest, taxes, secret service whatever), can you say, I did not vote for you so your laws do not apply to me?



When more people wake up from this tyranical nightmare and start revoking their consent, maybe I'll take some initiative to participate in this supposed democratically elected representative government. I'm not holding my breath though.


Tell me how you would fix this system for you to become involved again. Not that it will happen, but I will entertain your ideas.

---
Going 3rd person loses even further credibility with me.

#62 Joker

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:45 PM

No I do not. I live in a Blue state. My vote would have been lost in the shuffle if I voted any other way. The system sucks, I cant change it.

And again, you can choose not to vote for those that pull this type of shit. if enough people would do that then maybe things really would "change"

You CAN be part of the change by not voting for the TEAM.

Is TASB absolved from responsibility for not voting? I am confused.

If you truly believe you don't have a say because your vote would get lost in the shuffle then there's no reason to ask this question as you obviously believe a single vote doesn't make a difference.

While I believe not voting for either team is a step in the right direction, the only way I would agree with it is if there wasn't a candidate that shared enough of my beliefs for me to support.


No, what if I voted for Romney. Does that make it better? My vote was wasted on the loser. What if I voted for Gary? Did that change anything?

Wow you really do have the blinders on if you honestly believe you hold no responsibility for getting the guy you voted for elected.

Why would anyone bear responsibility for the policies of the guy they didn't vote for?

#63 concert andy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:46 PM

Is TASB absolved from responsibility for not voting? I am confused.

Yes, he is. He also stated clearly that he has revoked his consent to be governed by crooks, murders and swindlers. I did not vote for the lesser of two evils. Not responsible for evil.

When more people wake up from this tyranical nightmare and start revoking their consent, maybe I'll take some initiative to participate in this supposed democratically elected representative government. I'm not holding my breath though.


The restraint it took me to hold back shots is incredible.

WOW, just wow, the logic here is ... (please fill in the blanks) ...

#64 concert andy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:58 PM

And again, you can choose not to vote for those that pull this type of shit. if enough people would do that then maybe things really would "change"

You CAN be part of the change by not voting for the TEAM.

If you truly believe you don't have a say because your vote would get lost in the shuffle then there's no reason to ask this question as you obviously believe a single vote doesn't make a difference.

While I believe not voting for either team is a step in the right direction, the only way I would agree with it is if there wasn't a candidate that shared enough of my beliefs for me to support.


Wow you really do have the blinders on if you honestly believe you hold no responsibility for getting the guy you voted for elected.

Why would anyone bear responsibility for the policies of the guy they didn't vote for?


Wow is right. You have to get off your high horse.

You are not going to make it change. It would be nice if you could, but in reality this is the most useless conversation ever, because you blame me in some half assed logic that blames me for voting for him, instead of accepting the reality of why I voted for him. We play the smallest part in the political process, butyou keep believing otherwise. It is rigged and I accept it for what it is. I do not lose sleep, I occasionally inject myself to your ridicule for having a different opinion than you. But it is my fault. Keep telling yourself that, and may be I will come around one day to your side. Do you really see that happening? You sound like you are trying to make me regret my vote, or that we did not have this conversation before. May be change my mind. Just like I will never change your mind on gay marriage, you can not change my opinion with your logic. Your logic does not add up in my head. It is a nice idea, but reality is where I live and make decisions.

Change is a slogan, not reality.

voting third party is a great idea, but I saw no real possibility of him being elected, and my fear was the other guy would win and possibly have social issues would be pushed back to before I was born and you were a young man with the power to change things then, but it is still the same now.

So yeah, I voted for a guy who you don't like. get off my ass and stop blaming me for being on the TEAM.

Just cause I am one of the few who speaks here with a different opinion does not mean I am the sole person responsibility lies on.

Then why don't you blame TASB for not voting 3rd party. Instead of copping out with logic that does not make sense to me.


And yes there are loads of shots in this thread at both you and TASB. But somehow I am the problem here. OK.

#65 Tim the Beek

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:05 PM

Acknowledging that I'm only being as unbiased as I can, considering I agree with TASB in the position he has taken...

WOW, just wow, the logic here is ... (please fill in the blanks) ...


His logic seems far more sound to me than the notion of putting your support behind someone you admit sucks, and for whom you admit won't change anything.

And he more than sucks. He's a duplicitous hypocrite, and he has innocent blood on his hands.

#66 Joker

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:17 PM

Where did I ridicule you? There was no intention of ridiculing you by stating you bear some responsibility in electing Obama because you voted for him, every single person that voted for him bears some responsibility, it's simple fact.

Nope, didn't vote for Nixon.

This thread isn't about voting for a third party, it's about those on the left not standing up when Obama does shit that they'd go apeshit over if it was done by the Republicans.

From what I've seen TASB has no problem standing up and saying that shit stinks no matter what party is filling the toilet.

#67 concert andy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:18 PM

Acknowledging that I'm only being as unbiased as I can, considering I agree with TASB in the position he has taken...



His logic seems far more sound to me than the notion of putting your support behind someone you admit sucks, and for whom you admit won't change anything.

And he more than sucks. He's a duplicitous hypocrite, and he has innocent blood on his hands.


Again agreed, but I voted for him because I am afraid of a right leaning Supreme court. Period.

Everything else could go suck a dick.

Just because I lay it out there does not mean I am the only person who voted for Obama.

I guess I have to go through this again? I do not think voting 3rd party just to get 3rd party on the ballot is the way to go. I will vote 3rd party when that candidate has a chance to win. So to me 3rd party is not a vote I will cast.

Let me clarify, he sucks on this issue, and will have to address it in the coming days. And if it is not reported on or questions asked to the president, then there can be outrage. Now this is just continued outrage, for outrage sake. So someone will hear how bad Obama is, and to change my mind some how.

So while TASB's logic and Joker's logic may be sound to you or others.

Who is to say I am responsible? And how can they round about tell me I am responsible for Obama's actions?

This is where I am confused.

#68 concert andy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:21 PM

Wow you really do have the blinders on if you honestly believe you hold no responsibility for getting the guy you voted for elected.

Why would anyone bear responsibility for the policies of the guy they didn't vote for?


Right there. Do I have to go back through the whole thread.

#69 concert andy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:23 PM

This thread isn't about voting for a third party, it's about those on the left not standing up when Obama does shit that they'd go apeshit over if it was done by the Republicans.


And I said the same thing about the right not standing up for the same things when they happen but that got lost somehow.

#70 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:03 AM

My only logic here is that I didn't vote for this. I'm not taking any responsibility for what unfolds because of it. The people in charge of our nation and coffer, were selected by the constituency that voted for them. They were the voice of this administration.

What ever state you are in, you are still represented by the people you did not vote for. And you a citizen of this country,.

So say hypothetically you get screwed by the government (however arrest, taxes, secret service whatever), can you say, I did not vote for you so your laws do not apply to me?

Obviously not. This isn't a body of governing built on consent anymore. Hasn't been that way for along while. I simply, on moral and ideological grounds, reject everything happening with the current affairs of this nation. Especially things such as torture, assassination and indefinite detention without a trial by peers. I could go on endlessly.



Tell me how you would fix this system for you to become involved again. Not that it will happen, but I will entertain your ideas.

---
Going 3rd person loses even further credibility with me.


A return to limited, constitutional government that rejects core corruptions. Think Bourbon Democrats. That will never happen though. This system will build until it breaks. However that may unfold.

#71 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:11 AM

"My only logic here is that I didn't vote for this. I'm not taking any responsibility for what unfolds because of it."

If you didn't vote at all, you may as well not exist.

I dont see how that solves anything at all. Even if 100% of the voters abstained from voting, the politicians and electorate would, and you'd still be dealing with a leader you didn't vote for.

Inaction has never, and will never "get things done".

#72 Joker

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:36 AM

Right there. Do I have to go back through the whole thread.

So saying you have blinders on because you can't see what is right in front of you is ridicule? It wasn't meant that way. I just can't comprehend how you could possibly believe you bear no responsibility for your actions. Especially when those actions were meant to get him elected.

You really don't see how voting to elect a guy puts some of the responsibility of him being elected on you? And it's not just you it's everyone that voted for him who bears some responsibility. The only reason he was elected is because of those who voted for him.


So tell me, who exactly do you feel is responsible for him being elected if it's not the people who supported him and voted for him?

#73 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:09 AM

"My only logic here is that I didn't vote for this. I'm not taking any responsibility for what unfolds because of it."

If you didn't vote at all, you may as well not exist.

I dont see how that solves anything at all. Even if 100% of the voters abstained from voting, the politicians and electorate would, and you'd still be dealing with a leader you didn't vote for.

Inaction has never, and will never "get things done".


My existence does not rest on the obligation to choose leadership. I'm perfectly capable of leading myself and still peacefully existing. :jimy:

And in a climate like this one, not participating is the best option for my principles and standards. Not participating is a bit different than inaction.

#74 concert andy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:13 AM

So saying you have blinders on because you can't see what is right in front of you is ridicule? It wasn't meant that way. I just can't comprehend how you could possibly believe you bear no responsibility for your actions. Especially when those actions were meant to get him elected.

You really don't see how voting to elect a guy puts some of the responsibility of him being elected on you? And it's not just you it's everyone that voted for him who bears some responsibility. The only reason he was elected is because of those who voted for him.


So tell me, who exactly do you feel is responsible for him being elected if it's not the people who supported him and voted for him?


OK. I voted for him and it is all my fault, not the other half of the country who also voted for him but tell me how this ...

would be better if I had voted for Gary Johnson or Rossanne Barr?

I mean I voted for Grampa Al Lewis as governor of NY in 2000. On 9/11, I thought, thank god he did not win.

You keep believing that outrage or pointing out hypocrisies will make any change.

I do not believe in change. It is the same regurgitated BS. I do not believe in any of them. The only thing that matters to me is that every one is treated equally. I want the US to be the place where every one is free, every one is accepted for who they are no matter how crazy or what religion you believe in or who they marry. Since we are no longer the definite military power in the world, or the biggest economy in the world, we should be the place in the world where we lead by example in the way we live and accept every one regardless.

The only way to make sure of this in my opinion is to make sure there is a liberal compassionate judges who will do the right thing morally and legally.

So go on and believe in 3rd parties, or be outraged, or decide to abstain from voting, but I feel your lack of caring for your fellow man and caring more about some future 4, 8, 12 years from now when that party is may be on the ticket. By then I will be a decade older and may not feel the same way then.

#75 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:32 AM

I don't know that one person gets responsibility for anyone elses vote. But when we begin talking about what the OP was about, anyone who voted in favor of this candidate, whether or not for this reason, has to stand up next to it. They can disown this action and make excuses, and most do, but they still have to claim ownership.

As it was said, this isnt new. Its been a deal for years and other than people like Jack pointing it out, many supporters are silent. The silence is deafening. And so it feel more like complacency or agreement than the occasional mutter of disapproval when prodded.

#76 Joker

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:09 AM

OK. I voted for him and it is all my fault, not the other half of the country who also voted for him but tell me how this ...

would be better if I had voted for Gary Johnson or Rossanne Barr?


Jesus man, did you just respond without reading what I said? I never said it was all your fault. In fact, I specifically said it's NOT just you it's everybody that voted for him.

And it's not just you it's everyone that voted for him who bears some responsibility.



Would what be better if you voted for someone else?

I don't know if anything would be better but you wouldn't bear the responsibility for electing Obama if you had voted for someone other than Obama.

#77 PeaceFrog

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:24 AM

ownership?

wow...

ok.

I'm sorry I killed innocent Americans with drones. Are you happy now?

#78 PeaceFrog

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:28 AM

funny, too. because Ron Paul never "owned up" to what was printed in his newsletters...

yet, Obama voters must own up to a classified military program started by George Bush and fully supported by Mitt Romney... nice.

We could have voted third party and got stuck with Mitt Romney. What difference would that have made? 47% will vote Republican no matter who is on the ticket.

#79 concert andy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:05 AM

Jesus man, did you just respond without reading what I said? I never said it was all your fault. In fact, I specifically said it's NOT just you it's everybody that voted for him.



Would what be better if you voted for someone else?

I don't know if anything would be better but you wouldn't bear the responsibility for electing Obama if you had voted for someone other than Obama.


But it is somehow in a round about way my fault.

That is why my obnoxious response was saying. Blame me, I voted for this guy. Every president does bad things. Wasn't Clinton president for Black hawk down. Bad things happen in the world. I accept this.

Semantics are lost on you. It is cut and dry. I voted for him so I am fault for supporting his policies.

OK. You win. Does not change my mind about anything, but all Obama voters are jerks for not being upset. We get it.

:bang:

#80 concert andy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:06 AM

funny, too. because Ron Paul never "owned up" to what was printed in his newsletters...

yet, Obama voters must own up to a classified military program started by George Bush and fully supported by Mitt Romney... nice.

We could have voted third party and got stuck with Mitt Romney. What difference would that have made? 47% will vote Republican no matter who is on the ticket.


Cause they should have voted for the third party candidate and we are wrong for not being outraged for the use of drones.

#81 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:19 AM

YES YOU DID?

I suppose. It's really beyond reproach anyway. It all matters so little. Everyone should do what they do and let the chips fall where they may. I'll be smiling any which way.

#82 Tim the Beek

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:42 PM

....and we are wrong for not being outraged for the use of drones.


You've got that part right. Left or right, anyone who isn't scares me.

And anyone who voted for him does bear (a small bit) of responsibility for the result in my book. That responsibility may include a court which may be slightly less damaging than the one Romney would have made choices for, but it also includes extrajudicial death from above, the continued curtailment of civil liberties, and a litany of other "evils."

I still love the people I love who voted for him, and understand why they did it, but I know of no sound logic which can absolve them of that responsibility.

#83 Spidergawd

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:17 PM

I voted for Obama, and I don't regret it. I strongly disagree with his stance on drone use, but I don't know of any politician that I agree with on every issue. In my view, the preponderance of facts left me with only one real choice, and that's how I voted. I have no problem publicly voicing my dismay and disagreement with this policy, cuz, IMO, it's wrong.

You can blame me all you want. I don't really care. I didn't vote to please anyone else, and I will NOT apologize for it.

#84 Tim the Beek

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:26 PM

I voted for Obama, and I don't regret it. I strongly disagree with his stance on drone use, but I don't know of any politician that I agree with on every issue. In my view, the preponderance of facts left me with only one real choice, and that's how I voted. I have no problem publicly voicing my dismay and disagreement with this policy, cuz, IMO, it's wrong.

You can blame me all you want. I don't really care. I didn't vote to please anyone else, and I will NOT apologize for it.


<3

#85 Spidergawd

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:26 PM

Is TASB absolved from responsibility for not voting? I am confused.

Yes, he is. He also stated clearly that he has revoked his consent to be governed by crooks, murders and swindlers. I did not vote for the lesser of two evils. Not responsible for evil.

When more people wake up from this tyranical nightmare and start revoking their consent, maybe I'll take some initiative to participate in this supposed democratically elected representative government. I'm not holding my breath though.


You revoked your consent? What does that mean, exactly? I got news for you pal, you while you are a citizen of the US, you're not revoking anything. In order to be part of this society, there are certain things you must deal with, whether you like or "consent" to it or not. Go ahead and stop paying taxes. Go ahead and stop following the laws. See how well that works out for you.

By all means, work diligently to bring the change that you feel is needed. That is not only your right, but your duty. Join or form organizations. Lobby your representatives. Or, you can withhold your vote, not do a fuckin' thing to change anything, and throw up your arms like a petulant child.

I find the whole concept of "revoking consent" to be patently ridiculous. If you really want to "revoke consent", then you should probably live in another country that isn't so horrible. If you want to part of our society, you have to play within its boundaries.

#86 Tim the Beek

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:28 PM

And just so's it's clear, what I wrote above isn't an expression of blame. We make choices, and we're responsible for the results - both the "good" and the "bad."

Some of the stuff in this thread would seem to suggest that that's not the case. It is. IMO.

#87 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:32 PM

My existence does not rest on the obligation to choose leadership. I'm perfectly capable of leading myself and still peacefully existing. :jimy:

And in a climate like this one, not participating is the best option for my principles and standards. Not participating is a bit different than inaction.


So you choose to not vote, but you still have Obama as president. Howd that work out for ya.

#88 Tim the Beek

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:35 PM

You revoked your consent? What does that mean, exactly? I got news for you pal, you while you are a citizen of the US, you're not revoking anything. In order to be part of this society, there are certain things you must deal with, whether you like or "consent" to it or not. Go ahead and stop paying taxes. Go ahead and stop following the laws. See how well that works out for you.

By all means, work diligently to bring the change that you feel is needed. That is not only your right, but your duty. Join or form organizations. Lobby your representatives. Or, you can withhold your vote, not do a fuckin' thing to change anything, and throw up your arms like a petulant child.

I find the whole concept of "revoking consent" to be patently ridiculous. If you really want to "revoke consent", then you should probably live in another country that isn't so horrible. If you want to part of our society, you have to play within its boundaries.


The idea of consent goes back to Locke, or before, and is enshrined in the Declaration of Independence. I see nothing wrong with the notion. By withdrawing one's consent, one simply decides not to volunteer to participate in a system he feels is unjust. That doesn't mean that he won't be governed by coercion ("there are certain things you must deal with, whether you like or "consent" to it or not. Go ahead and stop paying taxes. Go ahead and stop following the laws. See how well that works out for you.").

There's plenty that can be done to work to change things without participating in a voting/political/economic system one feels is wrong and broken. :)

Like I said, <3.

Edited to add: I'd like to think that "America, love it or leave it," went out went the Soviet Empire fell...

#89 Tim the Beek

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:36 PM

So you choose to not vote, but you still have Obama as president. Howd that work out for ya.


I'm not TASB, I think it sucks that he's the President of my country, but I've been ok with the guy I've seen in the mirror each morning since 11/6.

#90 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:37 PM

You revoked your consent? What does that mean, exactly? I got news for you pal, you while you are a citizen of the US, you're not revoking anything. In order to be part of this society, there are certain things you must deal with, whether you like or "consent" to it or not. Go ahead and stop paying taxes. Go ahead and stop following the laws. See how well that works out for you.

By all means, work diligently to bring the change that you feel is needed. That is not only your right, but your duty. Join or form organizations. Lobby your representatives. Or, you can withhold your vote, not do a fuckin' thing to change anything, and throw up your arms like a petulant child.

I find the whole concept of "revoking consent" to be patently ridiculous. If you really want to "revoke consent", then you should probably live in another country that isn't so horrible. If you want to part of our society, you have to play within its boundaries.


Read it again.

#91 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:37 PM

You revoked your consent? What does that mean, exactly? I got news for you pal, you while you are a citizen of the US, you're not revoking anything. In order to be part of this society, there are certain things you must deal with, whether you like or "consent" to it or not. Go ahead and stop paying taxes. Go ahead and stop following the laws. See how well that works out for you.

By all means, work diligently to bring the change that you feel is needed. That is not only your right, but your duty. Join or form organizations. Lobby your representatives. Or, you can withhold your vote, not do a fuckin' thing to change anything, and throw up your arms like a petulant child.

I find the whole concept of "revoking consent" to be patently ridiculous. If you really want to "revoke consent", then you should probably live in another country that isn't so horrible. If you want to part of our society, you have to play within its boundaries.


Read it again.

#92 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:42 PM

People who dont vote (or give their consent) forfeit all complaining rights.

I mean, complain all you want, but in the end, you did nothing to change anything...you just stood silent.

People who do nothing are actually called cowards. Too afraid to get involved, so they abstain from action. :facepalm:

You believe you are being educated, but really, how have you helped by taking zero action?

#93 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:46 PM

I've got news for you too. It's not my duty to change people's minds. Which is the overall problem here in the first place. After that, read it again:

The idea of consent goes back to Locke, or before, and is enshrined in the Declaration of Independence. I see nothing wrong with the notion. By withdrawing one's consent, one simply decides not to volunteer to participate in a system he feels is unjust. That doesn't mean that he won't be governed by coercion

And again:

The idea of consent goes back to Locke, or before, and is enshrined in the Declaration of Independence. I see nothing wrong with the notion. By withdrawing one's consent, one simply decides not to volunteer to participate in a system he feels is unjust. That doesn't mean that he won't be governed by coercion

And Again:

The idea of consent goes back to Locke, or before, and is enshrined in the Declaration of Independence. I see nothing wrong with the notion. By withdrawing one's consent, one simply decides not to volunteer to participate in a system he feels is unjust. That doesn't mean that he won't be governed by coercion

#94 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:47 PM

People who vote for evil are evil. That may make me a coward for not conforming, but it also doesn't make any of you any less evil.

#95 Tim the Beek

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:48 PM

People who dont vote (or give their consent) forfeit all complaining rights.

I mean, complain all you want, but in the end, you did nothing to change anything...you just stood silent.

People who do nothing are actually called cowards. Too afraid to get involved, so they abstain from action. :picardfp:

You believe you are being educated, but really, how have you helped by taking zero action?


I'm sorry to write this, cuz I like you dude, but this is utter bullshit. If you don't vote, you can't complain? Maybe if you don't vote out of apathy...because you can't be bothered to break away from your TV to go to the polls there's a weak argument for it, but other than that, it's hogwash.

Not voting isn't "zero action." You don't know what people are doing in their day to day lives to try to change things.

Last I'll say about it, because this looks like a recipe for a treadmill...

#96 Spidergawd

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:53 PM

The idea of consent goes back to Locke, or before, and is enshrined in the Declaration of Independence. I see nothing wrong with the notion. By withdrawing one's consent, one simply decides not to volunteer to participate in a system he feels is unjust. That doesn't mean that he won't be governed by coercion ("there are certain things you must deal with, whether you like or "consent" to it or not. Go ahead and stop paying taxes. Go ahead and stop following the laws. See how well that works out for you.").

There's plenty that can be done to work to change things without participating in a voting/political/economic system one feels is wrong and broken. :)

Like I said, <3.

Edited to add: I'd like to think that "America, love it or leave it," went out went the Soviet Empire fell...


To be clear, I don't mean "love it or leave it". Work the system to influence change you'd like to see. Much like these "tea party" fools. I vehemently disagree with their philosophy, but I have to respect their strategy. They used to just bitch and "revoke consent", but then they took a new tack - starting from the most local offices (dog catcher, school board, etc) they got like-minded people in, over and over, and before long held significant sway on a larger group, changing the face of politics to one extent or another. That is how you can begin making changes WHILE participating. Much as I'd have liked them to just disappear, they worked within the system to some success.

Also, I have to disagree with the concept of governing by coercion. While I do see the point there, it's also true that nobody is coercing you to live here. You choose to stay here, which gives implied consent to the rules of our society. That's more of what I was driving at.

#97 hoagie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:06 PM

interesting you bring that up JP...


The Myth of Political Consent

by James Ostrowski
by James Ostrowski

Recently by James Ostrowski: Why Politics Is Not the Answer

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This is an excerpt from Direct Citizen Action: How We Can Win the Second AmericanRevolution Without Firing a Shot.









Permit me to digress into a discussion of the meaning of political consent and its withdrawal. I am not saying that the American people ever explicitly consented to be ruled by the regime on the Potomac, or that they are parties to some mysterious Social Contract that implies their consent. That is all utter nonsense and propaganda. I know I never consented to be ruled by a regime that I have strongly opposed since my teenage years. Nor have I ever signed a Social Contract allowing them to rule over me. I'd be a jackass if I had.
To the best of my knowledge, no living American ever signed a contract to be ruled by the creepy politicians in DC. There are people long dead who signed a proposed Constitution and there are 11791 people long dead who voted at state conventions to ratify the Constitution. However, no living American ever agreed to be bound by the consent to be governed apparently given by people long dead that they did not know.
Libertarian legal scholar Randy Barnett has brilliantly refuted all possible theories of how citizens can be found to have implicitly consented to be ruled when it is perfectly obvious that they have not explicitly consented. See, Restoring the Lost Constitution (2004), pp. 11 et seq.
Voting does not imply consent as we never get to vote on the legitimacy of the regime itself. And what if you vote against the regime as I have done in every election since I was allowed to vote? How in the world can that be construed as consent? Well, I played the game. Okay, so if I stop voting, I have withdrawn my consent? That's a bargain! I will stop voting, withdraw my consent and the tax bills will cease. Hurray! Yeah, but you could haveplayed the game, they will say. Barnett replies: "It is a queer kind of ‘consent' where there is no way to refuse one's consent." (p. 16). Barnett goes on to demolish all the familiar rationalizations for why average citizens have "consented" to be governed by political thugs in DC:
  • Residency — this argument "presupposes that those who demand that you leave already have authority over you." (p. 18) It's a circular argument.
  • Acquiescence to the laws. "Does one really manifest a consent to obey the commands of someone much more powerful simply because one does not physically resist the threat of violence for noncompliance?" (p. 21)
  • Acceptance of the regime. This proves too much, according to Barnett. Even oppressive regimes have the passive acceptance of their people in the sense they do not actively revolt.
  • Acceptance of benefits. This is the most common argument made by liberals these days. With respect to the alleged benefits of the state's legal system, Barnett simply notes that there can be no consent since there is no way to opt out. The argument from receipt of tangible "benefits" also fails. These are paid for by compulsory taxes you never consented to. Only if such things as roads, schools, and fire protection were funded voluntarily, could you be said to have consented to the regime by using them. That never happened of course. Also, again, to consent, there must be a reasonable way not to consent. If I refuse to use the streets, I die of starvation. It's a distorted view of consent that leads to the "argument": joinus or die!

Thus, we the living never consented to the current regime in the first place in any meaningful way. Thus, what I am proposing is this: we need to make explicit what is already implicit. We need to announce that we do not accept the legitimacy of the regime. This regime is blatantly, openly and proudly violating our natural rights. It is not legitimate within the clear understanding of our founding document, the Declaration of Independence. Thus, you have no moral obligation to support it. Withdrawing moral support for the regime is critical since public support is the very basis of the regime's power. That is why government schools are so critical to the maintenance of the regime's power. And that is why even totalitarian regimes have elaborate propaganda operations.
I emphasize again that I do not advocate civil disobedience. Why engage in risky and costly law-breaking when we can take America back through lawful and peaceful means?
If the regime begins to unambiguously violate its own constitution, then it becomes the practitioner of civil disobedience and the people will have a moral and legal right to resist as I explain further in Chapter 20.


#98 concert andy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:07 PM

You revoked your consent? What does that mean, exactly? I got news for you pal, you while you are a citizen of the US, you're not revoking anything. In order to be part of this society, there are certain things you must deal with, whether you like or "consent" to it or not. Go ahead and stop paying taxes. Go ahead and stop following the laws. See how well that works out for you.

By all means, work diligently to bring the change that you feel is needed. That is not only your right, but your duty. Join or form organizations. Lobby your representatives. Or, you can withhold your vote, not do a fuckin' thing to change anything, and throw up your arms like a petulant child.

I find the whole concept of "revoking consent" to be patently ridiculous. If you really want to "revoke consent", then you should probably live in another country that isn't so horrible. If you want to part of our society, you have to play within its boundaries.


My point is you still have to live by the laws of the people you elected, even new laws passed by these new elected officials.

You can drop out, but you still have to live with in the rules dictated. You think that is a tyranny, too bad.


I voted for Obama, and I don't regret it. I strongly disagree with his stance on drone use, but I don't know of any politician that I agree with on every issue. In my view, the preponderance of facts left me with only one real choice, and that's how I voted. I have no problem publicly voicing my dismay and disagreement with this policy, cuz, IMO, it's wrong.

You can blame me all you want. I don't really care. I didn't vote to please anyone else, and I will NOT apologize for it.


Same here. You want to put the blame on me, to make your life better. That is fine. I am here to take all the blame so you can sleep better playa.


People who vote for evil are evil. That may make me a coward for not conforming, but it also doesn't make any of you any less evil.


Stop feeding into it. But to turn it back on the voters and call evil is just as bad as placing blame to make you feel better.

#99 Spidergawd

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:11 PM

My point is you still have to live by the laws of the people you elected, even new laws passed by these new elected officials.

You can drop out, but you still have to live with in the rules dictated. You think that is a tyranny, too bad.




Same here. You want to put the blame on me, to make your life better. That is fine. I am here to take all the blame so you can sleep better playa.




Stop feeding into it. But to turn it back on the voters and call evil is just as bad as placing blame to make you feel better.


I believe I'm with you pretty much 100% here Andy. :smile:

#100 Spidergawd

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:13 PM

Interesting article, Hoag. Seems like he's saying that one can revoke consent, but in the next breath he discusses working within the system, as I advocate. To me, that's basically consenting.