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IRELAND WOMAN DIES AFTER BEING DENIED AN ABORTION IN THE HOSPITAL Read more: http://www.classwarfareexists.com/ireland-woman-dies-after-being-denied


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#51 JBetty

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:53 PM

No. I would try to find someone qualified and willing to do something about it. But I I wouldn't force anyone to take a life on the chance of saving someone else



Forcing doctors to perform abortions has never been an issue, as there are plenty of qualified doctors who are willing to do so, provided the government does not enact laws forbidding them to do so.

#52 hoagie

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:54 PM

Exactly, deflecting responses with other questions, or half assed solutions that would never apply in the REAL WORLD.

I think Joker lives in fantasy land. Along with this guy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM

Now were should we build our plant?

How about Fantasy land?


Id just once like him to accept that his ideas are fixed in a bygone era, and it has much to do with being a child in the mid 40s-mid 50s.

#53 MeOmYo

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:54 PM

I would kill everyone of those plants, and hope the plants are not strong and damage my car.

F those plants, long live people! :lol:


:lol: me too

#54 hoagie

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:56 PM

Plants, they have lived, are living, and will live long after people fade into obscurity.

#55 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:58 PM

NostraiHoagie has spoken.

#56 hoagie

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:07 PM

Heed what I and i have to say.

#57 Joker

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:35 PM

In this case there was no one willing to do the procedure because of the nation's strict code. Meaning, that if someone did step in and do this, they may have lost their license. Because federal law out weighs common sense.

So finding someone more qualified is not going to work.

Now with that in mind, would you still let her die? knowing there is nothing you can do to save both.






What I would do, is get her on the first flight out of the country so someone could save her life, instead of letting her slowly die on my watch.

As I said, I'd try to find someone qualified and willing to do it. Personally I know I couldn't afford everything necessary to have her flown out of one country and treated in another country nor do I know if it would even be possible to do that in her condition.

#58 concert andy

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:37 PM

As I said, I'd try to find someone qualified and willing to do it. Personally I know I couldn't afford everything necessary to have her flown out of one country and treated in another country nor do I know if it would even be possible to do that in her condition.


But in this story you are a doctor, with the means and time to to do so.

Do not apply this to you per se in your current state. Step outside of yourself, and put yourself in someone else's shoe's with your values.

Now what do you do?

#59 Joker

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:38 PM

you're assuming this wasn't done.

I'm assuming no such thing, I'm stating what I would and wouldn't do

#60 hoagie

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:42 PM

As I said, I'd try to find someone qualified and willing to do it. Personally I know I couldn't afford everything necessary to have her flown out of one country and treated in another country nor do I know if it would even be possible to do that in her condition.


Joker seems to think that it is better to lose both lives and follow the law, than it is to attempt to save one life by sacrificing another, even if the end result is that both die.

Better to try everything to save a life, and fail, than to simply not try anything at all due to some law.

#61 Joker

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:42 PM

But in this story you are a doctor, with the means and time to to do so.

Do not apply this to you per se in your current state. Step outside of yourself, and put yourself in someone else's shoe's with your values.

Now what do you do?

I don't think I could bring myself to kill one person on the chance it could save another

#62 hoagie

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:44 PM

I don't think I could bring myself to kill one person on the chance it could save another


is a fetus a person?

#63 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:47 PM

It's pretty obvious what Joker is saying. I dont understand what is hard to grasp. He's saying you can not force a doctor to perform the procedure. So, if the current doctor will not, for moral or lawful reasons, then someone else may. In other words, you should not force a medical pro to perform something they may have legal or moral boundaries on. It seems rather elementary.

#64 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:48 PM

But by all means, continue to throw stones at him fo rhis opinion. It's the way of the world.

#65 hoagie

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:49 PM

It's pretty obvious what Joker is saying. I dont understand what is hard to grasp. He's saying you can not force a doctor to perform the procedure. So, if the current doctor will not, for moral or lawful reasons, then someone else may. In other words, you should not force a medical pro to perform something they may have legal or moral boundaries on. It seems rather elementary.


The article didn't talk about whether or not any doctor was against performing it. It said that doctors were not allowed to perform it due to stringent laws. Big difference, and one that Andy's question was attempting to address

#66 hoagie

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:50 PM

Forcing doctors to perform abortions has never been an issue, as there are plenty of qualified doctors who are willing to do so, provided the government does not enact laws forbidding them to do so.


again, for TASB.

#67 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:54 PM

And his argument is still valid to the article. Considering we do not have all of the detail ssurrounding this particular case. All in all, the law is ridiculous. It's a doctor patient concern, not a legislative one.

#68 MeOmYo

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:54 PM

I believe what the article states and what is fact are 2 different things

#69 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 05:55 PM

^ Stop with the reasoning and logic, dude. Just stop it.



#70 JBetty

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:04 PM

I'm confused. Where are doctors being forced to perform abortions against their will?

#71 hoagie

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:06 PM

I'm confused. Where are doctors being forced to perform abortions against their will?


Fantasy Land...

#72 Joker

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:08 PM

The article didn't talk about whether or not any doctor was against performing it. It said that doctors were not allowed to perform it due to stringent laws. Big difference, and one that Andy's question was attempting to address

First thing Andy did when he came into this thread is take a shot at me. When he got around to asking me a question I attempted to answer it the best I could, when he asked for further clarification I attempted to give it to him.

You on the other hand are doing nothing in here other than some low level trolling.

#73 hoagie

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:14 PM

First thing Andy did when he came into this thread is take a shot at me. When he got around to asking me a question I attempted to answer it the best I could, when he asked for further clarification I attempted to give it to him.

You on the other hand are doing nothing in here other than some low level trolling.


If by trolling you mean call out your amazingly outdated mode of thinking, and clarifying the position of the article in spite of TASB and you trying to spin it, I don't believe you know the meaning of trolling.

I do appreciate your answer, but you didn't address the question. Hypothetically, as a doctor, you wouldn't have the option of letting a patient die of blood poisoning due to a pregnancy complication. Under your hippocratic oath, you would be required to perform some sort of treatment to try and relieve her situation. The law in Ireland makes that duty impossible to perform in this situation, and that is what I thought we were discussing.

If you personally would not perform an abortion due to your own personal beliefs, please say so, as it would make your position here much easier to understand.

#74 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:20 PM

I didn't spin anythign, dude. I'm pointing out that you guyys are piling on joker for his opinion regarding this situation. I already agreed that the law is ridiculous adn that this is a doctor patient issue, not a legislative one. So if you want to drag me into your pile on, you're going to have to do better than that. Far better.

#75 hoagie

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:22 PM

I didn't spin anythign, dude. I'm pointing out that you guyys are piling on joker for his opinion regarding this situation. I already agreed that the law is ridiculous adn that this is a doctor patient issue, not a legislative one. So if you want to drag me into your pile on, you're going to have to do better than that. Far better.


my bad, you are right.

I respect his right to his own opinion, but wonder why it is so inflexible, especially when 2 lives were lost due to an agreement by the Irish governent with his opinion. no disrespect intended.

#76 hoagie

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:23 PM

It's pretty obvious what Joker is saying. I dont understand what is hard to grasp. He's saying you can not force a doctor to perform the procedure. So, if the current doctor will not, for moral or lawful reasons, then someone else may. In other words, you should not force a medical pro to perform something they may have legal or moral boundaries on. It seems rather elementary.


I think this is where I thought you were spinning, as no where in the article was any of this sentiment talked about.

#77 Joker

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:25 PM

I'm confused. Where are doctors being forced to perform abortions against their will?

No place that I know of

#78 TakeAStepBack

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:28 PM

I think this is where I thought you were spinning, as no where in the article was any of this sentiment talked about.


No, it didn't, but Jack did. And that flared the "old school white man" racist comments that proceeded.

#79 Spidergawd

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:34 PM

I think all matter is precious, no one manifestation is greater than any other, but it ALL exists as a greater whole...





...which may just be a single molecule of substance in a higher realm that plays some part in an even greater "ALL" and on and on....


Okay Horton, time to step awwwaaaayyyy from the pipe.

That's the voices in yer head, NOT a Who.

:funny1:

#80 JBetty

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:34 PM

No place that I know of



Then I don't understand why you were talking about doctors being forced to do so. :dunno:

#81 Spidergawd

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:36 PM

You callin' my gal a man, brother?!?

Them's huggin' words!

:funny1:


EMBRACES AT TEN PACES!!!

#82 Joker

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:42 PM

Then I don't understand why you were talking about doctors being forced to do so. :dunno:

Because that seems to be what they wanted done despite the fact that it's apparently illegal over there.

Savita Halappanavar’s husband, Praveen, said doctors determined that she was miscarrying within hours of her hospitalization for severe pain on Sunday, Oct. 21. He said that over the next three days doctors refused their requests for a termination of her fetus to combat her own surging pain and fading health.

#83 Tim the Beek

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:42 PM

EMBRACES AT TEN PACES!!!


YAY!

#84 JBetty

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:45 PM

Because that seems to be what they wanted done despite the fact that it's apparently illegal over there.

Savita Halappanavar’s husband, Praveen, said doctors determined that she was miscarrying within hours of her hospitalization for severe pain on Sunday, Oct. 21. He said that over the next three days doctors refused their requests for a termination of her fetus to combat her own surging pain and fading health.




I don't read that as intending to force anyone to do anything, but I can see how you might have interpreted it differently.

#85 concert andy

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:49 PM

If by trolling you mean call out your amazingly outdated mode of thinking, and clarifying the position of the article in spite of TASB and you trying to spin it, I don't believe you know the meaning of trolling.

I do appreciate your answer, but you didn't address the question. Hypothetically, as a doctor, you wouldn't have the option of letting a patient die of blood poisoning due to a pregnancy complication. Under your hippocratic oath, you would be required to perform some sort of treatment to try and relieve her situation. The law in Ireland makes that duty impossible to perform in this situation, and that is what I thought we were discussing.

If you personally would not perform an abortion due to your own personal beliefs, please say so, as it would make your position here much easier to understand.


This is why I take cheap shots, because all we want to hear is that you actually have feelings on a particular subject, instead of turning your feelings into ridiculous questions that show your feeling without Joker realizing it.

And are they really cheap shots? I think I am stating truth, because I am using your logic against you. Trying to prove to you that you do actually have more of an Archie Bunker sensibility than you may admit.

First thing Andy did when he came into this thread is take a shot at me. When he got around to asking me a question I attempted to answer it the best I could, when he asked for further clarification I attempted to give it to him.

You on the other hand are doing nothing in here other than some low level trolling.


I do not think you actually answered the hypothetical question. You said you would not be able to do it. But you did say you would try to find someone to help. I stated that the only way to help, is get her out of the country, You are a doctor with connections. You could get her out of the country.

Then I asked, Now what would you do.

Your answer, "I don't think I could bring myself to kill one person on the chance it could save another".

What about the fact about being able to get someone to help outside of the country? I said you could have the connections to do so. Not your current situation, not your current means. Hypothetically speaking, if you were a doctor on this case, would you have helped her get out of the country?

You know, may be to some far away country known as England? Or even stay on the island and go up to Northern Ireland which is ruled by, ENGLAND.

#86 Joker

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:57 PM

If flying her out of the country is what it would take to get her someone qualified and willing to do it then certainly. I don't see anything wrong with that

#87 Spidergawd

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:03 PM

Requesting =/= forcing.

#88 Joker

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:10 PM

I used that term because that was the term used in the post by Seany that I was originally responding to

#89 JBetty

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:16 PM

So it's all Seany's fault!!! :joker:

#90 Joker

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:20 PM

:iagree:

He really does suck

#91 Spidergawd

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:25 PM

Seany = rabblerouser

#92 Spidergawd

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:25 PM

Joker >= cantankerous old fart

#93 hoagie

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:00 PM

Different countries have different laws. Who are we to say they should follow our laws rather than their own?

While many here have grown to accept the taking of another life simply because the mother decides she wants to end that life, there's millions, if not billions, of people around the world who see that as murder. Is it right to force someone to extinguish the life of another?


You ask a question that has no bearing on the subject of why a woman and her unborn baby were unable to be saved due to Irish law. Your question served to confuse the issue, and steer it away into some moral realm. Im not sure why either...

You go on in this thread to agree with JBetty that there is no place you know of where any doctor is being forced to give abortions. Again, why even ask such a question, unless you are trying to make some moral implication about yourself?

#94 concert andy

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:07 PM

Again, wording of the question shows your true feelings, other than owning your feelings.


See a map of the world of where it is legal, illegal, or exceptions to the rule.

Posted Image




Blue - Legal for rape, maternal life, health, mental health, socioeconomic factors, and/or fetal defects.
Green - Illegal with exception for rape, maternal life, health, fetal defects, and/or mental health.
Yellow - Illegal with exception for rape, maternal life, health, and/or mental health.
Brown - Illegal with exception for maternal life, health, and/or mental health.
Orange - Illegal with no exceptions.
Black - Varies.
Gray - No information.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Abortion_law

#95 hoagie

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:13 PM

Again, wording of the question shows your true feelings, other than owning your feelings.


See a map of the world of where it is legal, illegal, or exceptions to the rule.

Posted Image




Blue- Legal on request
Green - Legal for rape, maternal life, health, mental health, socioeconomic factors, and/or fetal defects
Yellow - Illegal with exception for rape, maternal life, health, mental health, and/or fetal defects
Brown - Illegal with exception for rape, maternal life, health, and/or mental health
Orange - Illegal with exception for maternal life, health, and/or mental health
Red - Illegal with no exceptions
B;lack - Varies
Grey - No information
[2][dated info]


http://en.wikipedia....ki/Abortion_law


fixed that for ya....you left out red...

#96 Joker

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:19 PM

You ask a question that has no bearing on the subject of why a woman and her unborn baby were unable to be saved due to Irish law. Your question served to confuse the issue, and steer it away into some moral realm. Im not sure why either...

You go on in this thread to agree with JBetty that there is no place you know of where any doctor is being forced to give abortions. Again, why even ask such a question, unless you are trying to make some moral implication about yourself?


My post was a response to what Seany posted


Tragic :(

I'm sure the pro-life advocates will argue that it was "God's will" or that women occasionally die during childbirth and we should protect life at all costs, regardless of the occasional tragedy. And I'm ok with people having that belief/opinion if they want, but when it is legislated and forced upon the public, doctors, hospitals, etc., well... I've got a real problem with that :bang:


that's why I quoted him and not the original post. The confusion seems to be that some of you seemed to have missed that and assumed I was addressing the OP

#97 Joker

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:21 PM

Again, wording of the question shows your true feelings, other than owning your feelings.


See a map of the world of where it is legal, illegal, or exceptions to the rule.



http://en.wikipedia....ki/Abortion_law


Really? What exactly are my true feelings?

#98 concert andy

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:31 PM

Really? What exactly are my true feelings?


The way you word many questions in this thread is that you are more of a pro life person, than a pro choice.

There are lots of varying opinions here (from crazy to rational), but I think you lean the pro life. Crazy, I do not think so.




I am with hoagie though. I try to bait you into exposing your feelings with my questions, and hoagie is in the same place as me, but instead calls you on what he (i included) thinks is a BS backwards thinking opinion. I do to, but noticed you will only answer my specific question, and not engage further.

This leaves me with having to take shots or remind you of the constant hypocritical comments. While you answer my question reasonably, it takes a lot of hypothetical's to get there, and in the end the over arching point is missed. That your original thought is dated, and I am trying to show you the light. But instead most of the time you choose what ever path it is you are already on.

#99 Joker

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:39 PM

Did you know you could just come out and actually ask me the question you want an answer to rather than playing stupid fucking games?

I've repeated countless times that I'm pro-choice even though I believe abortion is taking a life.

#100 MeOmYo

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:49 PM

If he just came out and asked you, what would our amusement have been today?