190 replies to this topic

[PeaceFrog]

Posted by Aphrodite on 15 Nov 2012

When I first heard about this story…I sat in front of my computer screen with my mouth wide open in complete disbelief. The scary part is that this could become quite the norm right here in the US.
Savita Halappanavar, a 31-year-old Indian woman living in Ireland, went to the hospital when she first began to miscarry — but thanks to Ireland’s stringent abortion ban, medical professionals denied her repeated requests to quickly terminate the pregnancy because they could still detect a fetal heartbeat. The Irish hospital required her to extend her miscarriage over three days until the fetus’ heartbeat officially stopped, and by that time, Halappanavar had developed serious blood poisoning. She passed away just a few days later.
Savita Halappanavar’s husband, Praveen, said doctors determined that she was miscarrying within hours of her hospitalization for severe pain on Sunday, Oct. 21. He said that over the next three days doctors refused their requests for a termination of her fetus to combat her own surging pain and fading health.
Praveen told the Irish Times in a telephone interview from Belgaum, southwest India:

Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning, Savita asked ‘If they could not save the baby, could they induce to end the pregnancy?’ The consultant said: ‘As long as there is a fetal heartbeat, we can’t do anything.’

Halappanavar’s death helps to highlight the tragic effect of Ireland’s stringent abortion ban, but the impact of that type of restrictive legislation isn’t just limited to that country. In fact, lawmakers in Ohio are quietly pushing extreme anti-abortion legislation that would subject the women in that state to a situation incredibly similar to the one in Ireland.
During this year’s lame duck session, Ohio legislators are planning to revive HB 125, a so-called “heartbeat” bill that would ban abortions as soon as a fetal heartbeat can be detected — which can first occur as early as five or six weeks, before many women may even know they’re pregnant. If HB 125 is passed, it would criminalize all abortions after the emergence of a fetal heartbeat without allowing even the narrowest exceptions in potential cases of rape, incest, or the mental health of the woman.
Even if Ohio’s bill includes some kind of provision that would allow women to seek abortions in life-threatening situations, Halappanavar’s death points to the fact that health risks aren’t always immediately apparent.
She was pretty…she was alive…she probably could have had other fetal opportunities…a full life and a family. This is the future of all women, should we be denied our choice. This is what happens when our uterus and it’s contents become more important than women as a whole.


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[hoagie]

Irish facepalm

[seany]

Tragic

I'm sure the pro-life advocates will argue that it was "God's will" or that women occasionally die during childbirth and we should protect life at all costs, regardless of the occasional tragedy. And I'm ok with people having that belief/opinion if they want, but when it is legislated and forced upon the public, doctors, hospitals, etc., well... I've got a real problem with that

[Joker]

Tragic

I'm sure the pro-life advocates will argue that it was "God's will" or that women occasionally die during childbirth and we should protect life at all costs, regardless of the occasional tragedy. And I'm ok with people having that belief/opinion if they want, but when it is legislated and forced upon the public, doctors, hospitals, etc., well... I've got a real problem with that

Different countries have different laws. Who are we to say they should follow our laws rather than their own?

While many here have grown to accept the taking of another life simply because the mother decides she wants to end that life, there's millions, if not billions, of people around the world who see that as murder. Is it right to force someone to extinguish the life of another?

[hoagie]

. Is it right to force someone to extinguish the life of another?

Is it right to lose two lives, when 1 could have prevented?

[Joker]

Nope but I don't see the chances of possibly saving 1 life as reason enough to definitely take another

[Tim the Beek]

I feel that abortion as a means of birth control, particularly to the degree that it's used, is a tragic symptom of a culture which has less and less respect for life.

I feel that as a white male, I should have less say in this than women do.

And I feel that the laws which lead to this woman's death are, in their own way, just as disrespectful of life.

[TakeAStepBack]

How about just having less say because you are a male? Or better yet, because you're not a doctor or the patient?

[MeOmYo]

In this case, it is my understanding that abortion is not illegal in cases of medical emergencies in Ireland. The problem is, there is no definition of what is/is not a medical emergency so doctors are unwilling to perform abortions for fear of legal retribution. This couple wanted an abortion because of the complications of the pregnancy but the doctor was unwilling to perform one.

I'm not saying it was right or wrong, just my understanding of what happened.

[Tim the Beek]

How about just having less say because you are a male? Or better yet, because you're not a doctor or the patient?

ts;dr

[PeaceFrog]

I'm not saying what should or should not be done in Ireland... that's obviously their business, and I'm not an Irish Citizen. The reason it's news here, and the reason I posted the article is because this is what could have very well been the case here if Romney had gotten elected. I'm glad we dodged that bullet. Whew!

And respect for life is way over-rated in today's world.

I kill billions of germs on my hands when I wash them with anti-bacterial soap. That's killing life, too. Why is one life-form more important than others? Is it the heart-beat that's important? This isn't a rhetorical question. I really want to know why a human life is more valuable than any other mammal, or fish, or bacteria.

In fact, plants are life, too. And we kill those lives when we eat them.

it's not a trick question. I think some life is more important than others. I think those of us who are already born are more important than the unborn, for example. And, I don't mind eating animals. They're tasty. If it walks on four legs, than it's food... or if it has wings or scales, and it's not an endangered species because they're pretty important.

[concert andy]

Nope but I don't see the chances of possibly saving 1 life as reason enough to definitely take another

Again, an issue, and Joker is on the side of the aging old school white man.


I am surprised almost daily.

[TakeAStepBack]

Is this really an aging, old school white man platform?

http://latitude.blog...-abortion-wars/

[TakeAStepBack]

Sometimes I find these stereotypes and borderline racist comments very telling.

[Tim the Beek]

How about just having less say because you are a male? Or better yet, because you're not a doctor or the patient?

And, btw, the reason I described myself as a white (probably should have added "college educated") male, is that those things in combination make me less like than those who aren't those things to be living in poverty, where there decision to have a child or not might have meaningful ramifications on both my quality of life, and the child's...and I expect someone will say that if the child is aborted, it will have no quality of life, but I think you know what I mean.

[Joker]

Sometimes I find these stereotypes and borderline racist comments very telling.

These "kids" today have no problem attacking and insulting anyone who disagrees with them. Best to just lump the opposition into one big group as it makes for an easy target when they start directing the hate towards them.

[Tim the Beek]

Sometimes I find these stereotypes and borderline racist comments very telling.

Don't think it's racist, breh, to acknowledge that being a white guy tends to give one a leg up in the United States.

Oops, I see, I think, that you wasn't referring to me.

[TakeAStepBack]

Not you, Tim. But Andy's comment is a different story.

[Joker]

Again, an issue, and Joker is on the side of the aging old school white man.


I am surprised almost daily.

So are you on the side that believes someone has the right to force another to take a life?

[china cat]

not saying it's the norm, but worth mentioning:


On March 1, 1989, Erica Richardson, a 16-year-old Maryland resident, bled to death from a punctured uterus only hours after undergoing an abortion. During the next five months, two adult women, Gladys Estanislao and Debra Gray, also died from abortion complications. They too were residents of Maryland.
Shockingly, none of these three women was even granted that smallest of recognitions–becoming a statistic. The official statistics issued by Maryland public health officials showed that there were no deaths from abortion in 1989. Indeed, Maryland only reported a single abortion-related death for the entire decade of 1980 to 1989.(1)
There was actually a fourth maternal death related to a 1989 abortion in Maryland. In this case, Susanne Logan fell into a coma during her abortion and awoke four months later as a quadriplegic,

Even more.. Patricia Chacón, a sixteen-year-old girl, and Mary Peata, a 43-year-old married Hispanic woman, both bled to death after having abortions, along with Deanna Bell, a 13-year-old ; Josefina Garcia, a 37-year-old woman; Laniece Dorsey, a 17-year-oldl; and Joyce Orenzio, a 32-year-old woman.

The scope of the coverup is hinted at in a memo from Steven C. Joseph, M.D., the Commissioner of Health for New York City, to all of his city’s abortion providers. Dated June 5, 1987, the friendly memo simply cautioned against the overuse of general anesthesia, stating: “During the period between 1981 and 1984, there were 30 legal abortion-related deaths in New York City . . . one-third of these (10) were due to general anesthesia, whereas in the rest of the United States less than 10 percent of abortion-related deaths were due to general anesthesia (12/146).”(4)

While not intended for release to the general public, this memo is clear evidence that public health authorities know far more about abortion-related deaths than is being shared in the “official” statistics. For this same time period (1981-1984), New York’s top health official had identified 30 deaths in New York City alone, while the CDC’s official report shows only 42 abortion-related deaths during this period for the entire nation.
In addition, the memo also suggests that the Commissioner of Health had access to unpublished information identifying another 146 abortion-related deaths for that same time period outside of New York. Combined with the 30 deaths in New York City, that is 176 abortion-related deaths in all–419 percent higher than was reported in the official CDC numbers.

Similar admissions of cover-up have been made by other public health authorities.(5) For example, following the death of Barbara Lee Davis from hemorrhage after a routine first-trimester abortion, the chief of the Illinois Department of Public’s Division of Hospitals and Clinics admitted to reporters, “It’s unfortunate, but it’s happening every day in Chicago, and you’re just not hearing about it.”(6) Just one year later, during an investigation of only four Chicago-based abortion clinics, investigative reporters for the Chicago-Sun Times identified twelve abortion-related deaths that had not been reported in the state’s official statistics.(7)

[Spidergawd]

I find it quite ironic that a bunch of men, who basically have no fucking business deciding what any woman does with her body, are having this discussion.

[Spidergawd]

How about just having less say because you are a male? Or better yet, because you're not a doctor or the patient?

Thank you, TASB.

[Tim the Beek]

You callin' my gal a man, brother?!?

Them's huggin' words!

[Joker]

I find it quite ironic that a bunch of men, who basically have no fucking business deciding what any woman does with her body, are having this discussion.

Don't men (or women) have the right to decide if they should be forced to take someone's life?

[JBetty]

Don't men (or women) have the right to decide if they should be forced to take someone's life?

Of course not, but there are plenty of qualified doctors who will do so if not hampered by government regulations.
And not everyone agrees on exactly when life begins.

[china cat]

Of course not, but there are plenty of qualified doctors who will do so if not hampered by government regulations.
And not everyone agrees on exactly when life begins.

embryology text books do.

but not gonna get too involved in this discussion, turns into an endless go round and no one leaves the discussion with a different opinion from that which they entered the discussion.

the "men have no right to participate" doesn't fly with me. If we were talking about child abuse enacted by a mother (and many believe that is what abortion is), infanticide enacted by a mother, and other issues that endanger lives...I think we'd all agree, that regardless of sex, all citizens within a society can and should weigh in on that debate.

[hoagie]

Nope but I don't see the chances of possibly saving 1 life as reason enough to definitely take another

So you would rather 2 lives end for sure, than try and possibly save one?

[concert andy]

So are you on the side that believes someone has the right to force another to take a life?

In this case, ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY.

You would let someone slowly die from blood poisoning for three days? No matter the circumstance?

[concert andy]

I find it quite ironic that a bunch of men, who basically have no fucking business deciding what any woman does with her body, are having this discussion.

Me too.

[hoagie]

I'm not saying what should or should not be done in Ireland... that's obviously their business, and I'm not an Irish Citizen. The reason it's news here, and the reason I posted the article is because this is what could have very well been the case here if Romney had gotten elected. I'm glad we dodged that bullet. Whew!

And respect for life is way over-rated in today's world.

I kill billions of germs on my hands when I wash them with anti-bacterial soap. That's killing life, too. Why is one life-form more important than others? Is it the heart-beat that's important? This isn't a rhetorical question. I really want to know why a human life is more valuable than any other mammal, or fish, or bacteria.

In fact, plants are life, too. And we kill those lives when we eat them.

it's not a trick question. I think some life is more important than others. I think those of us who are already born are more important than the unborn, for example. And, I don't mind eating animals. They're tasty. If it walks on four legs, than it's food... or if it has wings or scales, and it's not an endangered species because they're pretty important.

I am agreement here...no logical reason one type of life should be more valued than others, and I'd go one further and state that all life is just matter and substance, and since all life "dies" eventually, and breaks down into its components to be reused, life itself is no more special than any other form of matter.

[concert andy]

Don't men (or women) have the right to decide if they should be forced to take someone's life?

Yes, but in the case where someone else will die, you make a call based on saving one person, if you can not save both.

You know, when you weigh the options, and make an informed decision, instead of sticking to old school hard line mentality.

[MeOmYo]

blame the Catholics

[hoagie]

Yes, but in the case where someone else will die, you make a call based on saving one person, if you can not save both.

You know, when you weigh the options, and make an informed decision, instead of sticking to old school hard line mentality.

I have said this before, Joker reminds me soooo much of my late grandpa the way his mind works. What is surprising is how he won't own it.

[Tim the Beek]

I am agreement here...no logical reason one type of life should be more valued than others, and I'd go one further and state that all life is just matter and substance, and since all life "dies" eventually, and breaks down into its components to be reused, life itself is no more special than any other form of matter.

I find this to be a pretty cynical view...one which makes all manner of pain people inflict on one another and on other living beings excusable.

I don't share it.

And I do think all life is precious. And that our goal should be to take as little of it as is practically possible.

[hoagie]

I find this to be a pretty cynical view...one which makes all manner of pain people inflict on one another and on other living beings excusable.

I don't share it.

And I do think all life is precious. And that our goal should be to take as little of it as is practically possible.

I think all matter is precious, no one manifestation is greater than any other, but it ALL exists as a greater whole...





...which may just be a single molecule of substance in a higher realm that plays some part in an even greater "ALL" and on and on....

[MeOmYo]

that Acapulco Gold seems to be working very very well.

[hoagie]

CONQUISTADORS!!!!

[Joker]

In this case, ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY.

You would let someone slowly die from blood poisoning for three days? No matter the circumstance?

No. I would try to find someone qualified and willing to do something about it. But I I wouldn't force anyone to take a life on the chance of saving someone else

[Tim the Beek]

I think all matter is precious, no one manifestation is greater than any other, but it ALL exists as a greater whole...





...which may just be a single molecule of substance in a higher realm that plays some part in an even greater "ALL" and on and on....

I get that. Though I'm not sold on the idea that there's nothing beyond it...some sort of organizing force or law.

But assuming for a moment that there isn't...do you not think that there's some kind of responsibility we have to respect the various ways in which matter is organized? No right or wrong answer, as we're talking opinion here...

[MeOmYo]

hoagie is just pissed he did not come into this world as a tulip

[hoagie]

I get that. Though I'm not sold on the idea that there's nothing beyond it...some sort of organizing force or law.

But assuming for a moment that there isn't...

this is where I dont really care to go...my mind can conceptualize an infinite progression of higher and lower realms, and can almost grasp that there may be a "hub" at some level, but it is a terrible stretch. Far easier to just accept that ALL matter is equal in value, than to go about justifying what makes something more valuable than another. "Value" is subjective, after all...

[hoagie]

hoagie is just pissed he did not come into this world as a tulip

I just wanted to be poplar...

[Tim the Beek]

I just wanted to be poplar...

[concert andy]

No. I would try to find someone qualified and willing to do something about it. But I I wouldn't force anyone to take a life on the chance of saving someone else

In this case there was no one willing to do the procedure because of the nation's strict code. Meaning, that if someone did step in and do this, they may have lost their license. Because federal law out weighs common sense.

So finding someone more qualified is not going to work.

Now with that in mind, would you still let her die? knowing there is nothing you can do to save both.






What I would do, is get her on the first flight out of the country so someone could save her life, instead of letting her slowly die on my watch.

[Tim the Beek]

this is where I dont really care to go...my mind can conceptualize an infinite progression of higher and lower realms, and can almost grasp that there may be a "hub" at some level, but it is a terrible stretch. Far easier to just accept that ALL matter is equal in value, than to go about justifying what makes something more valuable than another. "Value" is subjective, after all...

Fair 'nuff!

[MeOmYo]

hoagie,

if you're driving down the road and are subjected to a situation where you must either choose to run over a pedestrian or drive your car through a vegetable garden.

Ok, how long did it take you to decide what you would do? and what would you choose?

[concert andy]

I have said this before, Joker reminds me soooo much of my late grandpa the way his mind works. What is surprising is how he won't own it.

Exactly, deflecting responses with other questions, or half assed solutions that would never apply in the REAL WORLD.

I think Joker lives in fantasy land. Along with this guy...



Now were should we build our plant?

How about Fantasy land?

[MeOmYo]

No. I would try to find someone qualified and willing to do something about it. But I I wouldn't force anyone to take a life on the chance of saving someone else

you're assuming this wasn't done.

[hoagie]

hoagie,

if you're driving down the road and are subjected to a situation where you must either choose to run over a pedestrian or drive your car through a vegetable garden.

Ok, how long did it take you to decide what you would do? and what would you choose?

I have that human trait called empathy, which I do not have for plants, as I am not a plant. I would have a terrible time hurting another human, because I would be able to empathize the trauma and pain the person I struck might be going thru, and would like to avoid that. I have no idea what a vegetable garden might go through if ran over with a car.

Anyway, having empathy for fellow humans doesn't make humans any more valuable than the plants...it just shows that I wouln't want to trade places with the human I was about to hit, in this situation.

[concert andy]

hoagie,

if you're driving down the road and are subjected to a situation where you must either choose to run over a pedestrian or drive your car through a vegetable garden.

Ok, how long did it take you to decide what you would do? and what would you choose?

I would kill everyone of those plants, and hope the plants are not strong and damage my car.

F those plants, long live people!