469 replies to this topic

[elder]

There are much better ways to employ middle class workers in this country. Building bombs to kill people isnt one of them in my opinion.

But its all we know, its what we do.

Obama had his chance. Our infrastructure is crumbling, our dependency on oil unchanged. Both of these things he could have shown some balls and come up with a plan. Put lots of folks to work. Instead, as feared, he's turned out to be just like the rest.

As long as we keep playing into this 2 party system we are doomed. Palin, Obama, Bush, whoever. It just doesn't matter anymore.

[TakeAStepBack]

i disagree, i think the Tea Party comparison is a good one.

these "rebels" are actually concerned citizens who are calling for a Democratic regime because they are sick of being oppressed under a corrupt dictatorship...

Comparing the USA and Libya is really silly. On any level. The rebels in this conflict have my support. Most definitely. But that comparison tries to simplify a very comlpex situation. Apples and oranges.

it is a civil war.

[TakeAStepBack]

But its all we know, its what we do.

Obama had his chance. Our infrastructure is crumbling, our dependency on oil unchanged. Both of these things he could have shown some balls and come up with a plan. Put lots of folks to work. Instead, as feared, he's turned out to be just like the rest.

As long as we keep playing into this 2 party system we are doomed. Palin, Obama, Bush, whoever. It just doesn't matter anymore.

I completely agree. It's a real shame. A shame on all of us for allowing it to happen.

[Deadshow Dan]

What a pile of crap all you anti-everyone folks are piling

It smells in here

Just where the plutocracy wants you

[TakeAStepBack]

What a pile of crap all you anti-everyone folks are piling

It smells in here

it isn't anti-everyone. It is definitely anti-status quo and what we all can associate with that statement. At least for me.

Obama promised change. He did not deliver. I am not shocked.

[kramer]

i don't think you can compare the Libyan government to the US government, because we are a free democracy whereas they are a totalitarian regime... but at the same time this isn't just a civil war, it's a body of citizens (who want democracy, just like Americans do) trying to overthrow a corrupt government. you can't always do that peacefully. i think that's the point Speckta was trying to make - that these citizens need the support of outside forces, otherwise they're just going to go on living under the same old regime.

i don't always know why we choose to intervene at certain times or places - why libya today? why not rwanda? why not any other number of places around the world where horrible human rights violations happen every single day? and i don't always think that violence or bombing is the answer - but i can certainly sympathize with the plight of the oppressed...

there are no answers and there will never be peace in the world...

[Deadshow Dan]

Obama promised change. He did not deliver. I am not shocked.

Of course he delivered change.

It's not the change to what YOU want, or even what I want.

But it's radically different in SO MANY AREAS from a Bush or McCain presidency

But like I said. You're right where the plutocracy wants you. Fighting against your interests

[Tainted703]

There are much better ways to employ middle class workers in this country. Building bombs to kill people isnt one of them in my opinion.

Also, I missed the reporting on Gaddahfi shelling civilians and sending fighter planes after them. All I see is that he is using military force against the rebels. While I do not support that behaviour, in a country like Libya, that is what will happen in a civil war.

Amazing all this spooge over Libya and yet the Israel/Palistine conflict of...god knows how long....gets by without much support in the humanitarian dept....same as Rwanda. It makes me skeptical of the motives at hand. As I believe it should anyone....just my useless two cents.

Like I said in my post, I don't agree with the massive military budget we have, I was just addressing the fact that "$100 million" dropped on Libya, isn't just $100 million gone out of our economy. Right or wrong, it's not just $100 million out the door.

Also, the 'rebels' are civilians who are protesting Ghadafi. The attacks have been on public displays of protest to the Ghadafi regime. It doesn't matter if you call them "Rebels" or "Protestors"

[TakeAStepBack]

Of course he delivered change.

It's not the change to what YOU want, or even what I want.

But it's radically different in SO MANY AREAS from a Bush or McCain presidency

But like I said. You're right where the plutocracy wants you. Fighting against your interests

Dan, he didn't even make good on his own promises. Let alone the complete overhaul (esp. on energy...probably the most important thing here...IMO) that I would have liked to see take place.

It might be abit different in terms of civil rights from teh last regime in office. But that is a very far cry from getting this country back on any kind of track. Just my .02 worth of uselessness.

[TakeAStepBack]

i don't think you can compare the Libyan government to the US government, because we are a free democracy whereas they are a totalitarian regime... but at the same time this isn't just a civil war, it's a body of citizens (who want democracy, just like Americans do) trying to overthrow a corrupt government. you can't always do that peacefully. i think that's the point Speckta was trying to make - that these citizens need the support of outside forces, otherwise they're just going to go on living under the same old regime.

i don't always know why we choose to intervene at certain times or places - why libya today? why not rwanda? why not any other number of places around the world where horrible human rights violations happen every single day? and i don't always think that violence or bombing is the answer - but i can certainly sympathize with the plight of the oppressed...

there are no answers and there will never be peace in the world...

And I can completely appreciate that sentiment, Kramer. But we have our own problems here in this country to worry about. 100 million in bombs for US to pay for...what about the people of this country...starving, out of work, losing their homes.


"so much trouble in the world." RIP Bob

[Deadshow Dan]

Dan, he didn't even make good on his own promises. Let alone the complete overhaul (esp. on energy...probably the most important thing here...IMO) that I would have liked to see take place.

It might be abit different in terms of civil rights from teh last regime in office. But that is a very far cry from getting this country back on any kind of track. Just my .02 worth of uselessness.

bad analysis'd

[elder]

Obama promised change. He did not deliver. I am not shocked.

Exactamundo.

The truth smells.

I mean think about it.

Yeah he inherited a collapsing economy, but just think about what if he made Detroit build alternative fueled cars? Or invested in a super fast rail system. Or just planned progressively, possibly making us the leaders once again in something. This fucking "recession" would be ovah!

Instead, he just gave Detroit our money, our kids and their kids money. Instead he just doled out more unemployment. Instead he tried slamming his healthcare scam down our throats. And instead we just keep playing war games.

Blah, your right Dan, it does smell in here. Smells like the same old shit.

[TakeAStepBack]

and yet I'm right. He hasnt made good on any of his own campaign points. And it's getting worse.

Bad analysis'd or not.

[Uncle Coulro]

It might be abit different in terms of civil rights from teh last regime in office.

How is the civil rights climate any different than pre-Obama?
Patriot Act - still in place
Guantanamo Bay - still in use and filled with permanent "detainees"
Whistle blowers - still rounded up and detained
...

[Joker]

and yet I'm right. He hasnt made good on any of his own campaign points. And it's getting worse.

And it won't get any better until all you anti-everyones start hoping for change harder

[kramer]

And I can completely appreciate that sentiment, Kramer. But we have our own problems here in this country to worry about. 100 million in bombs for US to pay for...what about the people of this country...starving, out of work, losing their homes.


"so much trouble in the world." RIP Bob

i agree that way too much $ is spent on the military budget and "patrolling" other countries. but with the UN as peacekeeper, the world came together to demand that Qaddafi end these human rights violations.. the no-fly zone was set up so that the protesting citizens would be protected... someone has to enforce those demands otherwise the UN has no leg to stand on.

again, like i said, i don't always understand why we choose to do some things and not others... but the world is a complex place. this feels much different than our invasions in Iraq / Afghanistan...

[kramer]

so the bombing cost $100 million

but it's not like we had to borrow that money from anywhere, right? the bombs were already bought & paid for.

not saying that i agree w/ the amount we invest in weaponry or advocating a bomb-happy policy, but at the same time...... what, are they just gonna sit in an armory and rust?

i don't know, just trying to put the $ in perspective.

[Deadshow Dan]

Yeah he inherited a collapsing economy, but just think about what if he made Detroit build alternative fueled cars?

Major movement in that area

Or invested in a super fast rail system.

that happened

Or just planned progressively, possibly making us the leaders once again in something. This fucking "recession" would be ovah!

the recession is over. unemployment isn't

Instead, he just gave Detroit our money, our kids and their kids money. Instead he just doled out more unemployment.

those LOANS were a success with most of it paid back already and all those jobs saved. American automobiles industry is in a major upswing

Instead he tried slamming his healthcare scam down our throats.

There we go. Slammed down our throats? What a freaking pile of stinky crap

On the one hand, you blame him that not everything he wanted has been accomplished . often due to republican fillibusters. On the other hand he "slammed down our throats" a bill that was endlessly debated

[Deadshow Dan]

He hasnt made good on any of his own campaign points. .

Do you actually believe that?

[Uncle Coulro]

someone has to enforce those demands otherwise the UN has no leg to stand on.

I'd like to see the UN stand on its third-leg and spin.

this feels much different than our invasions in Iraq / Afghanistan...

Right. To justify the invasions and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq, the US claimed forces which directly threatened the safety of US citizens were entrenched there.

[seany]

But we have our own problems here in this country to worry about. 100 million in bombs for US to pay for...what about the people of this country...starving, out of work, losing their homes.

Whether we're anti-war, anti-foreign aid, or not - the solution to our domestic policies doesn't lie in cuts to foreign policy. Fact is, we need to spend more at home and tax the fuckers that bought and own our representatives - the ridiculously wealthy executives and corporations that shout "Winning!" from the rooftops year after year. For the most part, they don't pay taxes at all and feed off the government tit more than anybody else. Forget "welfare queens" - go after the "all-expenses-subsidized-or-written-off welfare kingpins."

I'm so sick of the rich saying that they are getting the shaft. Oh geez, I'm a hedge fund manager and all of my income is derived from capital gains - therefore you can only tax me at the capital gains rate of 15%. Pity me. Fuck them. How many jobs did they actually create? Any tangible goods? They just shuffled paper...


Back to the point - yes, end the obscene amount of money that we're spending in Iraq and Afghanistan, but this Libya stuff is a drop in the bucket so far. We'll see. All the press reports seem to indicate that we don't want the lead on this and want to back away as soon as possible. We'll see...

[capt_morgan]

i have nothing constructive or disruptive to say...just checking in:coffee:

[freshwater dan]

Notice how this war was launched 8 years to the exact day as the Iraq War II.

Also notice how the President was in Brazil when he ordered airstrikes to begin. I don't recall a single debate in Congress discussing this. At least W. Bush went through the pretexts of obtaining the Authorization to Use Military Force before invading Iraq.

I call bs on this Operation Odyssey Dawn. Just another excuse to discharge weaponry so we can manufacture more.

[TakeAStepBack]

Whether we're anti-war, anti-foreign aid, or not - the solution to our domestic policies doesn't lie in cuts to foreign policy. Fact is, we need to spend more at home and tax the fuckers that bought and own our representatives - the ridiculously wealthy executives and corporations that shout "Winning!" from the rooftops year after year. For the most part, they don't pay taxes at all and feed off the government tit more than anybody else. Forget "welfare queens" - go after the "all-expenses-subsidized-or-written-off welfare kingpins."

I'm so sick of the rich saying that they are getting the shaft. Oh geez, I'm a hedge fund manager and all of my income is derived from capital gains - therefore you can only tax me at the capital gains rate of 15%. Pity me. Fuck them. How many jobs did they actually create? Any tangible goods? They just shuffled paper...


Back to the point - yes, end the obscene amount of money that we're spending in Iraq and Afghanistan, but this Libya stuff is a drop in the bucket so far. We'll see. All the press reports seem to indicate that we don't want the lead on this and want to back away as soon as possible. We'll see...

seany, I hold respect for your perspective. But this is totally not the way I see things at all. Our world police is a huge part of the domestic problem.

[Tainted703]

Whether we're anti-war, anti-foreign aid, or not - the solution to our domestic policies doesn't lie in cuts to foreign policy. Fact is, we need to spend more at home and tax the fuckers that bought and own our representatives - the ridiculously wealthy executives and corporations that shout "Winning!" from the rooftops year after year. For the most part, they don't pay taxes at all and feed off the government tit more than anybody else. Forget "welfare queens" - go after the "all-expenses-subsidized-or-written-off welfare kingpins."

I'm so sick of the rich saying that they are getting the shaft. Oh geez, I'm a hedge fund manager and all of my income is derived from capital gains - therefore you can only tax me at the capital gains rate of 15%. Pity me. Fuck them. How many jobs did they actually create? Any tangible goods? They just shuffled paper...


Back to the point - yes, end the obscene amount of money that we're spending in Iraq and Afghanistan, but this Libya stuff is a drop in the bucket so far. We'll see. All the press reports seem to indicate that we don't want the lead on this and want to back away as soon as possible. We'll see...

QUOTING FOR THE TRUTH.

Just want to point out, Taxes for the rich were HIGHER under Reagan then they are under Obama. Republicans were bashing the proposed resolution to the end of the tax cuts, taxing the rich, but Obamas proposal was still like 7% under what Reagan raised the rates to. Regan is hailed as a hero by Republicans nowadays...

The desperatity between the wealthy and the poor is growing at an alarming rate in this country. It has nothing to do with obama. It has to do with the American people. The people that watch Fox news. The people that vote Republican and vote for big business. Tax breaks for the rich. The trickle down effect.

It just seems like this country is constantly shooting itself in the foot, namely when we vote in a Republican majority. It probably has more to do with issues like religious Fascism, abortion issues, views on evolution, etc. But the republican party is for big corporations and the rich across the board. The democrats aren't MUCH better, they still receive millions if not billions in lobbyist contributions, but their policies are still better then republicans when it comes to the rich.

By todays standards, Ronald Reagan would have been considered a DEMOCRAT. In fact REAGAN never would have been elected today, running on the tax increase for the rich he did under his presidency.

How is the civil rights climate any different than pre-Obama?
Patriot Act - still in place
Guantanamo Bay - still in use and filled with permanent "detainees"
Whistle blowers - still rounded up and detained
...

Just wanted to point out, Patriot Act is NOT in place anymore. As of like two weeks ago, it expired and was not allowed to be renewed. As to the latter two items, yeah.

Wasn't a big part of Obama's campaign health care though? He came through on that. I'm not entirely happy with Obama, but you have to remember that he is a representative to the wishes of the country as a whole, not just you or the democrats. The strong sentiment lately has been against Obama, Healthcare, Against democrats, Against federal government. Obama is meant to represent this country, not just the party he hails from.

With that said, I have health care today because of Obama. I'm over 18 and under 25. I work full time, but the health care my company offers costs 1/3 of my paycheck and covers very little, forget about the dental. I'm finally able to see the doctor when I'm sick, because I'm able to stay on my parents health insurance plan.

Children can no longer be denied treatment for 'pre-existing conditions.' Insurance is one of the biggest lobbyists in this country, pro-republican. If you don't keep insurance your entire life, without lapse, your at risk for being denied coverage when in need of life saving procedures. Hospitals treat you to keep you alive, but they treat you with the cheapest route possible, which often times has a substantially lower survival rate then if you had insurance paying for a better treatment.

I have dual citizenship with the U.S. and England, and I forget what it's called, but my "Tax stamp" or w/e is payed for to receive treatment as an English citizen. I don't trust the American healthcare system and I can still fall back on the English, a country I've only been present in for 5 days in my entire life.

[Joker]

Just wanted to point out, Patriot Act is NOT in place anymore. As of like two weeks ago, it expired and was not allowed to be renewed.

O inks Patriot

Last Updated: 6:33 AM, February 26, 2011
Posted: 12:36 AM, February 26, 2011


WASHINGTON -- President Obama yesterday signed a three-month extension of the Patriot Act's surveillance provisions.
One aspect of the 2001 law lets law enforcement set roving wiretaps to monitor multiple communication devices.
Another lets officials ask a special court for access to business and library records deemed relevant to a terrorist threat.
A third grants the FBI the right to keep tabs on non-Americans not known to be tied to specific terrorist groups.


http://www.nypost.co...3y4lobjdnCclwIK

[Deadshow Dan]

As you can see, it's not a renewal of the Patriot Act. Just some of the provisions. Whether you agree with these provisions or not, the bulk of the Patriot Act expired (is my understanding)

[Joker]

As you can see, it's not a renewal of the Patriot Act. Just some of the provisions. Whether you agree with these provisions or not, the bulk of the Patriot Act expired (is my understanding)

You're wrong.

[vic]

With that said, I have health care today because of Obama. I'm over 18 and under 25. I work full time, but the health care my company offers costs 1/3 of my paycheck and covers very little, forget about the dental. I'm finally able to see the doctor when I'm sick, because I'm able to stay on my parents health insurance plan.

Children can no longer be denied treatment for 'pre-existing conditions.' Insurance is one of the biggest lobbyists in this country, pro-republican. If you don't keep insurance your entire life, without lapse, your at risk for being denied coverage when in need of life saving procedures. Hospitals treat you to keep you alive, but they treat you with the cheapest route possible, which often times has a substantially lower survival rate then if you had insurance paying for a better treatment.

I have dual citizenship with the U.S. and England, and I forget what it's called, but my "Tax stamp" or w/e is payed for to receive treatment as an English citizen. I don't trust the American healthcare system and I can still fall back on the English, a country I've only been present in for 5 days in my entire life.

no health care bill passed...not a single one...should satisfy anyone except one that provides universal healthcare...taking care of sick people should in no way whatsoever be a profitable business, and there should be NO exceptions...this works elsewhere, there's absolutely no reason and no excuse for it to not work here...obama's healthcare is a bad-aid on a shotgun wound...just another compromise

[vic]

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/G_J5icnh5js" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Deadshow Dan]

tc;dw

[capt_morgan]

ive actually been learning things reading this thread over the past few days:wink:

[TakeAStepBack]

"flat out broke?"

I think that is an understatement. We've already surpassed flat out broke....

[Deadshow Dan]

"flat out broke?"

I think that is an understatement. We've already surpassed flat out broke....

If you think America is broke, you've been taken

[TakeAStepBack]

I haven't been taken any where. The American public is broke. 13-14 trillion in debt is quite a ways passed broke. But keep believing the lies of the people hording all of it....... and I've been taken?

[Deadshow Dan]

Owing money and broke are different.

The present deficit is easily solvable.

Increase taxes on the rich and stop warring does most of it

[TakeAStepBack]

Your good friends on the left side of the isle aren't going to do that, Dan. they, like the right, are going to continue using the public to pay for their shitty policies and continue the plutocracy.

Kang'd.

[Deadshow Dan]

The ones on the left are.

The ones that Fox News call the left... different story

[TakeAStepBack]

You really need to choose a seat closer to the isle so you can see better.

[vic]

"flat out broke?"

I think that is an understatement. We've already surpassed flat out broke....

not broke at all...the ones up top have the money...and there's plenty of it...and you and i can't have any:joker:

[TakeAStepBack]

not broke at all...the ones up top have the money...and there's plenty of it...and you and i can't have any:joker:

Welcome to the plutocracy.....the american PUBLIC, is broke, as we pay the debts of the horders.

[Deadshow Dan]

You really need to choose a seat closer to the isle so you can see better.

the isle?

Capri?

[deadheadskier]

Sio.....about Libya

[vic]

Sio.....about Libya

and what about bahrain?

"The helpful thing, if you're overwhelmed by so much news going on at once, is that Bahrain is roughly the same story as Libya--only instead of pro-democracy protesters being murdered by a terrorist-sponsoring monster of a dictator who has been on America's enemies list for ages, the pro-democracy protesters are being murdered by a government that is America's very own dear ally. And where Qaddafi brought in foreign mercenaries for support, King Hamad bin Isa al-Khalifa of Bahrain brought in troops from our even more vital ally, Saudi Arabia...
So basically, take all those proud feelings about the United States standing up for freedom and human rights in Libya and turn them inside out, and vomit into them. That's Bahrain. "

http://www.boingboin...the-un-res.html


http://www.guardian....ckdown-eu-envoy

[beerzrkr]

One thing you forgot to mention about Bahrain is the fact that it is the home of our 5th fleet which controls all of our naval operations in the gulf region. I would imagine this is a good indication as to why it is being kept quiet. If they don

[vic]

exactly...so why libya?

[beerzrkr]

Well, that's my worry. If we are why Bahrain is kept quiet, are we why the rebel leadership in Libya is being kept quiet? Again, someone is calling the shots. You don't have food on the shelves, oil flowing, and controlled attacks if no one was running the show.

[vic]

vic, where did you pull that?

found it

http://www.theatlant...-libya/100031/#

[TakeAStepBack]

the isle?

Capri?

No the aisle!! The aisle!

[TakeAStepBack]

and what about bahrain?

"The helpful thing, if you're overwhelmed by so much news going on at once, is that Bahrain is roughly the same story as Libya--only instead of pro-democracy protesters being murdered by a terrorist-sponsoring monster of a dictator who has been on America's enemies list for ages, the pro-democracy protesters are being murdered by a government that is America's very own dear ally. And where Qaddafi brought in foreign mercenaries for support, King Hamad bin Isa al-Khalifa of Bahrain brought in troops from our even more vital ally, Saudi Arabia...
So basically, take all those proud feelings about the United States standing up for freedom and human rights in Libya and turn them inside out, and vomit into them. That's Bahrain. "

http://www.boingboin...the-un-res.html


http://www.guardian....ckdown-eu-envoy

Someone was telling me yesterday that Al-Q. is behind the revolts and are sponsored by America directly. I have no cite source, no logic to back it up, but someone is calling the shots here and according to my source, we're about to find out all about it.

Do I believe what i was told?