87 replies to this topic

[PeaceFrog]

actually, you guys are kind of reinforcing my original statement... people may consider themselves athiests, yet they may be very spiritual... then you have to define what spirituality is, and some people can't understand how it could not involve a God... whatevs...

[SunshineDrummer]

Now everyone's different. We all get by in our own ways, but please be careful when you call us nonbelievers NON spiritual, or ask us about how we maintain morals and ethics without religion.

I didn't see anyone do either of those things.

You can certainly be spiritual without being religious....one doesn't negate the other. Secular spirituality is just as valid as any set of religious beliefs.

[Jwheelz]

actually, you guys are kind of reinforcing my original statement... people may consider themselves athiests, yet they may be very spiritual... then you have to define what spirituality is, and some people can't understand how it could not involve a God... whatevs...

I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you, I was just trying to understand the way you differentiate between different ideas. Atheist literally means godless or without God, I personally appreciate the human spirit and what we are capable of as a species and I think that personally ascribing any of those things to a sentient being actually diminishes and oversimplifies what we are.

[elder]

Atheist literally means godless or without God, I personally appreciate the human spirit and what we are capable of as a species and I think that personally ascribing any of those things to a sentient being actually diminishes and oversimplifies what we are.

Jwheelz for President !!!

Because we believe and don't believe in the same things!

No, seriously, well put Jordan.

[Jwheelz]

[Jersey Thug]

personally, this need for some to categorize people in tidy little groups (religious, nonreligious, Atheist, agnostic, spiritual, what have you) grows tiresome to me. i don't understand the motivation, unless it's to decide whether they're acceptable to share space with you in some way...and i believe that should be determined by getting to know who someone is, not WHAT someone is.

i don't know if i consider myself spiritual. i probably fit well into the secular spirituality thing by definition, but i prefer "human" or "friend" if you're inclined to call me anything.

and i believe that the honest-to-goodness percentage of nonreligious Americans is a lot higher than we know at this time.

[Jersey Thug]

I personally appreciate the human spirit and what we are capable of as a species and I think that personally ascribing any of those things to a sentient being actually diminishes and oversimplifies what we are.

absolutely, 100% agreed.

[Jwheelz]

and i believe that the honest-to-goodness percentage of nonreligious Americans is a lot higher than we know at this time.

This. And social pressure created by things like politicians using religious sounding language in their campaigns (as an example) probably has a lot to do with the fact that people feel the need to hide their true feelings and beliefs. I'm not saying that's the only thing that causes it but I've seen surveys that say in many cases people who self identify as "atheists" or "nonbelievers" are subjected to more discrimination than any other group... I'm probably undermining myself by not taking the time to find said surveys but they're out there

[capt_morgan]

i believe in quantum physics, bacon, and life

[elder]

This. And social pressure created by things like politicians using religious sounding language in their campaigns (as an example) probably has a lot to do with the fact that people feel the need to hide their true feelings and beliefs. I'm not saying that's the only thing that causes it but I've seen surveys that say in many cases people who self identify as "atheists" or "nonbelievers" are subjected to more discrimination than any other group

Precisely why I stayed in the non-believer closet for so long.

And it is absolutely brain washing in my opinion when god bless this and that is "harmlessly" mentioned everywhere.
You can say people can formulate their own opinions and beliefs but when something is so entwined as part of the everyday, that becomes pretty difficult.
Especially for the young still seeking their way.

That said, times are changing. Surveys and studies (go find your own links ) show more and more people in this country leaving their religions. Catholicism especially with their church all up in a mess, has seen huge declines.

Maybe someday, someday we will ditch the political and religious labels. But then we wouldn't have anything to fight over.

[Jersey Thug]

i personally know a lot of folks who self-identify with a specific religion strictly for the community aspect (sense of belonging, networking opportunities, so as not to upset family members who do believe) who are the definition of agnostic in their personal beliefs. but i bet when/if polled, they would respond "I am Catholic", "I am Jewish", etc.

[In A Silent Way]

::drops pants::

::waddles out of thread like a penguin::

[elder]

IMHO, I don't see that ever happening. Quite the opposite, in fact. It seems like these days all we seem to do is slap more & more labels on ourselves. And the funny thing (to me) is that its all done in the name of being tolerant, accepting and respectful of all our different belief systems, walks of life, genders, races, etc.

And [insert deity of your choice here] help you if you mistakenly use the wrong label or one that's gone out of fashion.

Religious and other labels have been used by our "leaders" to polarize and divide us for thousands of years. Nothings changed.

[Jwheelz]

this upper-middle-class atheist liberal Gen-Y neohippie deadhead boardie disagrees with you

[elder]

this upper-middle-class atheist liberal Gen-Y neohippie deadhead boardie disagrees with you

Dude, you are so labeled

[Jwheelz]

not sure how many of those labels are correct

[SunshineDrummer]

Shit... I'd deleted what I wrote because I didn't want to inadvertently start trouble in a thread that's remained so civil. I know how stuff can be misinterpreted at times.

I just wish we could all look at each other simply as people instead of by our beliefs, etc. Would make life so much easier.

[Jwheelz]

I just wish we could all look at each other simply as people instead of by our beliefs, etc. Would make life so much easier.

I agree with this to some extent, but sometimes you can tell a lot about someone by their beliefs, for example someone who believes that people of different races shouldn't have the same rights or that Hitler was just misunderstood (admittedly extreme examples, not accusing anyone here of those things). Even so, on the general issues that aren't ones considered quite so controversial as my examples to most people here, things like supporting a different candidate or party (or no party or candidate) or believing the government should lower taxes as much as possible, definitely shouldn't be grounds to be disrespectful or mistreat someone. I think in general it's important to remain civil when we have these discussions, not just here but at the societal level, because if there are 2 different perspectives and it devolves to name-calling and vitriol then there will never be any progress towards either side's goals.

The same idea of civility applies to people of different religions, people shouldn't judge someone by what belief system they profess to follow, or any other differences between individuals. People are very passionate about their beliefs however and sometimes they can get so heated they forget that it's another person with thoughts and feelings on the other end of an argument.

In general though I do agree with your sentiment that it would be a lot better if people who think differently than each other could sit down and have a drink or share dinner with each other, or hang out and have a great time at a music festival without allowing the differences between them to prevent that from happening. I like to think that for the most part at least in our little corner of the Internet, even though things may be tense from time to time, ultimately we're all here for a lot of the same reasons. If that idea were to expand to our culture at large I don't see how that could be anything but good

Edited by Jwheelz, 07 September 2012 - 09:13 PM.

[SunshineDrummer]

Well said, Jordan. And much appreciated.

[china cat]

i can only speak for myself. i know for me, religious dogma was so thoroughly ingrained in my brain that even after 20+ years of nonbelief, on those occasions when i find myself in a church the responses and prayers come to my lips with absolutely no thought. even the long ones that took me forever to commit to memory in the first place. i have to consciously stop myself from speaking/kneeling/etc. i spent a LOT of time in church, bible study, CCD, etc as a kid and they trained me well.

"God bless you" is the same programmed response for me. also, there might be some wish to offer the other person a platitude THEY would appreciate. personally, i prefer "gesundheit" or the ever-popular "you're soooooooo good looking" upon sneezing. but i see no issue with offering a "God bless you" if that is something the other person would appreciate.

the difference between these programmed responses and what we're talking about (political platform strategy) is the forethought required to alter the latter, then change it back when it's determined that it isn't politically expedient. i don't care much for that, or other political posturing, but i get that it's mostly for show.

regardless, i'll always vote for the (major) party that least impinges upon my right to live my life how i see fit, based on what is most important to me. Elder, i completely understand your question, and think you just have to reflect upon what's most important to you (that politicians have a say in, or could have a say in) and follow your heart/gut/beliefs.

so, you're a libertarian?

[china cat]

where's Joker to ask why this hasn't been moved

((jack))

[Jwheelz]

[TakeAStepBack]

I still do, and always will, find what Jersey Thug has to say as completely perfect. She is very meticulous in thought. It's always nice to see her posts.

CC on the other hand....

[china cat]

[china cat]

hai wheels!

[insolent cur]

this thread delivers, says the atheist jew.

[elder]

this thread delivers, says the atheist jew.

it does deliver. another example of Boardie civility and just plain awesomeness

[beerzrkr]

Gary Johnson. As a nonbeliever I believe he will get my vote.

[Jersey Thug]

so, you're a libertarian?

[Jersey Thug]

and thanks, TaSB

[tiedyesky]

so there ya go, you dont believe in God, but invoke his name "out of habit". food for thought.

Have you ever yelled "Holy Shit!!!" ?

[elder]

Have you ever yelled "Holy Shit!!!" ?

[Count P-Funk]

In my recent experience, "God Bless You" has been almost universally been replaced by "Bless You".

[PieDoh]

to vote 4 our constitutionally guaranteed rights, is a vote for our Creator

[PeaceFrog]

Jehova, through Yeshua, created Lucifer, who later became El Diablo

[Spidergawd]

Well, it wasn't easy, but I was finally able to masturbate to this thread.

[Joker]

Well, it wasn't easy, but I was finally able to masturbate to this thread.

Heathen!!!

[Spidergawd]

Yay! Jack's back!!