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so it begins? the battle of wisconsin


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#201 Joker

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 11:50 PM

Wis Doctors Hand Out Fake Excuses to Protesters



#202 Lostsailr

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 12:30 AM

Yea, I suppose public employees should have to follow the contract, but the gov't shouldn't.
If they took off the gloves (by trying to take back contractual agreements, should they be surprised if these folks defended them selves with an "illegal" work stop action?
And how will they ever get the best and brightest to go into education when any fool can see how much respect and and what unbelievable salaries they could get if they give up a job in private sector to work as a public employee.

#203 busker4freedom

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 03:20 AM

the market has NO interest in the benefit of society, only profit margins...this is why market based economy is just bad news and why we have sweatshop workers making starve-to-death wages in 3rd world countries, because government didn't have our backs when all the jobs were allowed to be outsourced...theses "laws in place to protect workers" don't stop companies from making mass layoffs and the market encourages them because it's more cost efficient to pay slave wages elsewhere

the market is not human and the market is not a religion...motherfuck the market


And a corporate 'person' is not a human...doesn't bleed, doesn't burp, doesn't defecate, doesn't gussy itself up (unless you count expensive marble lobbies, steel & glass towers...)

Just remember this, anybody (left or right) obsessed with the need to judge the other as being completely WRONG, thereby giving yourself 'GOD' status, by being completely RIGHT, "When The FOOT OF PRIDE come down, there ain't no turning back."

#204 Joker

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 02:21 PM

Yea, I suppose public employees should have to follow the contract, but the gov't shouldn't.
If they took off the gloves (by trying to take back contractual agreements, should they be surprised if these folks defended them selves with an "illegal" work stop action?
And how will they ever get the best and brightest to go into education when any fool can see how much respect and and what unbelievable salaries they could get if they give up a job in private sector to work as a public employee.

The thing is, so far the government hasn't done anything wrong, well other than the politicians who decided to flee their state, their jobs and their constituents.

It certainly isn't going to help that the children these teachers are supposed to be teaching, are being taught that it's acceptable to walk off your job when you get pissed about something and that it's ok to lie about the reason.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if there aren't more than a few people that end up losing their jobs anyway for abusing their sick time after this is all said and done.

I'm also wondering how many, if any, have no strike clauses in their contracts that they're violating.

FTR I come from a strong union family, my father was a local president for the IBEW for years and I helped form, and served on the executive board of, a public employees union.

I'd imagine this is going to end up in the court system when/if it goes through and from the sounds of it, it will be going through. So unfortunately, when all is said and done, all this protesting isn't really going to amount to much of anything other than raising the public's awareness of what's happening.

#205 Joker

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 02:34 PM

The salary goes down quite a bit in some cases. For example here, it quickly drops $10K... $20K.. $30K and $35,000 less.
Is this because you're being intellectually dishonest? Or were you being dishonest the first time you quoted them without showing them all?


Like I said

Most of what I've seen are much, much higher paid. We're talking 80-90k including benefits


Hell, compare that page to the first one you apparently cherry picked and even most of those are higher.

Oh wait, that's right you have no bias, everything you do is innocent,but when others show the same behavior they are dishonest, biased, bigoted, hateful. :rolleyes:

What behavior am I showing?

I've never said I have no bias, all of us do, in some form or another. I do try to look at things objectively and I believe most people here do the same. I certainly don't consider those who show the same behavior to be dishonest, biased, bigoted or hateful.

You, however, make no attempt at seeing any "side" other than your own and you consistently try to force-feed that "side" down our throats.

THAT, is the type of behavior that I find to be "dishonest, biased, bigoted and hateful."

I remember doing the same thing with my views on the policies of the Israeli government and being called on it. I still hold those views but after being called on it, I took a step back, looked at it from the viewpoint of others, realized how some people could take my actions to be "dishonest, biased, bigoted and/or hateful" and while I still don't believe they were, I decided that it would be better for this community if I curtailed that behavior, especially in the Family Forum.

Might I suggest you do the same? :heart:




and by the way, you're right...



Yeah, I usually am :wink:

#206 Deadshow Dan

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 04:16 PM

What behavior am I showing?

I've never said I have no bias, all of us do, in some form or another. I do try to look at things objectively and I believe most people here do the same. I certainly don't consider those who show the same behavior to be dishonest, biased, bigoted or hateful.

You, however, make no attempt at seeing any "side" other than your own and you consistently try to force-feed that "side" down our throats.

THAT, is the type of behavior that I find to be "dishonest, biased, bigoted and hateful."

The behavior I'm talking about is personally attacking someone.. in this case me .. when the same behavior from you is all wonderful and good.

You say I cherry picked. I didn't. I went in, looked at a few, copied the one I last looked at... provided the link so anyone could (and I knew some would) judge for themselves whether it any salaries of teacher's were exorbitant.

Then you come in, and look at the site, and find ones that are higher.

Now whether you find some higher or you find most higher (I certainly haven't spent more than a few minutes looking there, I know teachers don't make wads of cash)... Great, pass on that information.

Instead you post only the highest of the salaries of a particular school, omitting salaries as much as $35,000 less than the ones you post. Then you accuse me of cherry picking. Can't you see how I could see that as hypocritical?

But more than that, WHO CARES WHAT YOU HAPPEN TO THINK OF ME? You always go straight for the personal attack. It makes reasonable discussion about anything very hard around here.

So why don't you shut the fuck up about what you think of me?

  • You're wrong about me in the most fundamental ways.
  • Furthermore it's irrelevant what you think of me.
  • These attacks are a poison to civil discussion.
  • And I think everyone already knows about your dishonest, biased, bigoted and hateful thoughts about me. No need to repeat them. Everyone knows.

Stick to the issue. If you find something that contradicts what I say, post it. Attack the content of what I say, don't attack me.

#207 Deadshow Dan

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 04:16 PM

And for an example, look at what I did with Beerzkr's post.

He posted a site which is labeled 'Teacher's Salaries' but actually is a lot more than that. You can find a lot of salaries there above $150K there and if you're thinking of them as teachers salaries that could seem pretty high to some.

Did I attack HIM for bringing in the biased Fox site that most likely purposely mislabels the site?

Of course not.

That's not civil discussion.

How am I to know the context of why he posted that? Who am I to be judge and jury on Beerzkr? Further what does it add to the discussion?

#208 Spidergawd

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 04:25 PM

[quote name='Lostsailr']While the unions may protect sub-par workers at times (an issue I do disagree with) they also keep employers from removing people for unfair reasons. Since the banking / financial industry poisoned retirement systems (and retirement funds of private sector, I might add) with toxic investments, employers like school districts are gasping for ways to balance their budgets. (read as,

#209 Joker

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 05:46 PM

The behavior I'm talking about is personally attacking someone.. in this case me .. when the same behavior from you is all wonderful and good.

Where have I personally attacked you?

You say I cherry picked. I didn't. I went in, looked at a few, copied the one I last looked at... provided the link so anyone could (and I knew some would) judge for themselves whether it any salaries of teacher's were exorbitant.

Please point out where I said that you cherry picked, I did say that you "apparently" did but I couldn't possibly know for sure if you did which is why I never said that you did (despite your accusation that I did.)

Then you come in, and look at the site, and find ones that are higher.

Now whether you find some higher or you find most higher (I certainly haven't spent more than a few minutes looking there, I know teachers don't make wads of cash)... Great, pass on that information.

Instead you post only the highest of the salaries of a particular school, omitting salaries as much as $35,000 less than the ones you post. Then you accuse me of cherry picking. Can't you see how I could see that as hypocritical?

Yes, I came in, looked at the site and every school I looked at showed exactly what I said "Most of what I've seen are much, much higher paid."

And looking back at that post I also asked you if the one school you chose to pick out was done so randomly or if you searched around to pick out one that suited your purpose. For some reason you chose not to answer that question. :dunno:

Again, I didn't "accuse" you of cherry picking so no, I can't see how you could see it as hypocritical.


But more than that, WHO CARES WHAT YOU HAPPEN TO THINK OF ME? You always go straight for the personal attack. It makes reasonable discussion about anything very hard around here.

So why don't you shut the fuck up about what you think of me?

  • You're wrong about me in the most fundamental ways.
  • Furthermore it's irrelevant what you think of me.
  • These attacks are a poison to civil discussion.
  • And I think everyone already knows about your dishonest, biased, bigoted and hateful thoughts about me. No need to repeat them. Everyone knows.

Stick to the issue. If you find something that contradicts what I say, post it. Attack the content of what I say, don't attack me.


I don't think anyone cares what I think about you and I don't believe I've mentioned anything about it.

Again, please point out where I've personally attacked you.

As for what I think about you I don't see anything here that speaks to that other than maybe this

You, however, make no attempt at seeing any "side" other than your own and you consistently try to force-feed that "side" down our throats.

THAT, is the type of behavior that I find to be "dishonest, biased, bigoted and hateful."


and I don't think anyone, including yourself, would disagree that you continually post threads that attack only the "Reps. and the right."

And you'll notice I clearly stated that it was your behavior and not you as a person, that I find to be "dishonest, biased, bigoted and hateful."

My apologies if you took that as a personal attack on you, I tried to make it as clear as possible that it was only the behavior being exhibited :heart:

#210 Deadshow Dan

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 07:31 PM

and I don't think anyone, including yourself, would disagree that you continually post threads that attack only the "Reps. and the right."

Since this is just not true, I hope you'll join me in condemning this behavior of yours as "dishonest, biased, bigoted and hateful."

That behavior is one that stops civil discussion here. That behavior is reminiscent of a thug. That behavior is reminiscent of one of someone who takes the law in their own hand as judge and jury, using whatever means they wish to disrupt what they want when they want.




--------------
As to your untrue comment.

Let's take the last month, January

I posted 23 threads with a last post in January

11 have nothing to do with 'current events'

Of the remainder, maybe 4 you could mislabel as attack on the Reps and the Right.

The other one asks a question of gun owners. One is an article on FCC Net Neutrality. One is the VT legislature proposing ban on corporate personhood, three are articles about Giffords (Obama's speech in video, the 9 year ol identified, and her husband discussing her recovery), one is about police no longer arresting for swearing in PA, one is about LGBT friendly hospital regulations going into effect. That's 8

What I do often is post about interesting current events. Most threads about current events that I've posted in the past year or two have not been anything that can be considered attacks on the Rep. and right. I've also posted several articles critical of President Obama.

Remember Jack, during the time you were banished from here for your horrible behavior, we were able to have civil discussion things, and just possibly facts about who posts what may have changed.

Now stop tiptoeing on the BoR, and post about what's being discussed. Not about me

#211 Lostsailr

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 07:38 PM

...It certainly isn't going to help that the children these teachers are supposed to be teaching, are being taught that it's acceptable to walk off your job when you get pissed about something and that it's ok to lie about the reason.
...
I'm also wondering how many, if any, have no strike clauses in their contracts that they're violating.

FTR I come from a strong union family, my father was a local president for the IBEW for years and I helped form, and served on the executive board of, a public employees union.
...


I hear you, but what should we teach the children?...sit tight and take it, as your elected officials threaten your fairly negotiated contracts...like sheep waiting for the slaughter? That is just how corporate America wants all Americans to be....and for the most part, they are. While the Gov't may not have done "anything wrong" yet, they ARE THREATENING TO TAKE AWAY A LEGALLY NEGOTIATED CONTRACT... and that might make people feel the need to fight back... gee, a lot like the colonists felt they had to break the law to fight for independence from England... we could have waited like sheep then too.

What gets me is not the questioning of what can be addressed in an effort to get budgets under control, but the bullseye never seems to land on the biggies...Defense, Medicare, the Fed's willingness to give free $$ to banks so they can make more money off the people by making loans (with the peoples' money)... in education, ever see a state or local gov't go after the board of Ed. budget? Administrative salaries? (In NYS we even have a separate Ed. dept. in The Board Of Regents.) The waste is at the top, not at the bottom, yet the puppeteers pull the strings and the public dances to their tune... "don't look here for the problem... look at the teachers who actually serve your kids, the police who actually patrol the streets, the firefighters who actually put out your fires..."

In the mean time, school are mandated by state and federal gov't to take on more responsibilities, duties with out the slightest discussion that they are changing the job description without negotiating pay increase for the extra tasks (not to mention the need to parent for many families). This gives the impression to local residents that the district is wasting their $$ but in fact much of the increase in local budgets are due to the fact that the feds and states are giving the localities less than they agreed to contribute for education.

In your Dad's union, did they often take on added work for no added $?
Did they offer to give up benefits so companies could balance their books without some other compensation? I have seen many district employees give back, or lower their contract negotiation expectations in tough times, only to see that when times get better, nothing is ever given back. I do not have a great love of unions (there's plenty of room for improvement there), but I do know that they are not the enemy of the American public. They are a scape goat, cleverly dangled in front the "angry ones" like teabaggers who oppose any "socialist" ideas while they drive on public roads regulated by public traffic signs and lights, and are protected by public law enforcement... and the older ones collecting their Medicare and Social Security... why are they not offering to give THAT back?

And I'm sure this is just drawing in the best and most talented college students to go into education... how will that ever happen when they get to take lower pay than many private sector jobs AND get attacked on every front... the smart kids are just lining up for that opportunity I'm sure.

#212 Joker

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 10:11 PM

Since this is just not true, I hope you'll join me in condemning this behavior of yours as "dishonest, biased, bigoted and hateful."

That behavior is one that stops civil discussion here. That behavior is reminiscent of a thug. That behavior is reminiscent of one of someone who takes the law in their own hand as judge and jury, using whatever means they wish to disrupt what they want when they want.

Well then that's my bad. That's why I said, "I would think that" because I wasn't sure. If you choose too consider that dishonest, biased, bigoted and hateful then so be it.



--------------
As to your untrue comment.

Let's take the last month, January

I posted 23 threads with a last post in January

11 have nothing to do with 'current events'

Of the remainder, maybe 4 you could mislabel as attack on the Reps and the Right.

The other one asks a question of gun owners. One is an article on FCC Net Neutrality. One is the VT legislature proposing ban on corporate personhood, three are articles about Giffords (Obama's speech in video, the 9 year ol identified, and her husband discussing her recovery), one is about police no longer arresting for swearing in PA, one is about LGBT friendly hospital regulations going into effect. That's 8

What I do often is post about interesting current events. Most threads about current events that I've posted in the past year or two have not been anything that can be considered attacks on the Rep. and right. I've also posted several articles critical of President Obama.

Remember Jack, during the time you were banished from here for your horrible behavior, we were able to have civil discussion things, and just possibly facts about who posts what may have changed.

Now stop tiptoeing on the BoR, and post about what's being discussed. Not about me


I wasn't referring to every thread you start, just the political ones. I actually just counted 8 on the first page of your threads started page that I'd consider to be anti-Rep/right and none anti-Dem/left. That's not counting threads started that are Dem/left friendly. I would guess one would have to go back a hell of a lot farther before finding more than a handful critical of the left.


Now, you keep screaming about me personally attacking you and I've asked you to point out where I've done that. I'm still waiting. Could you please either point it out or at least apologize for accusing me of doing it?

As far as I can tell this thread as remained civil despite your attempts to make it personal. I had asked you a question in my first post and rather than addressing it, which would have cleared up the "cherry picking" thing you chose to ignore it and then turned to making the thread about me.

From your next two posts

In each of these cases that Joker is only posting the first page of salary.... sorted by highest salary first.

As I wrote in the thread where Joker admitted to purposely 'clipping' pedestrian(s) with his vehicle who he felt were acting like assholes

We don't see eye to eye Dan, I can accept that and still remain civil.

I hope you can do the same.

#213 HABIT

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 10:16 PM

so when do you think the national guards going to start shooting protesters, i mean isn't that all the rage now a days... :habit: :rolleyes:

#214 Joker

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 10:46 PM

I hear you, but what should we teach the children?...sit tight and take it, as your elected officials threaten your fairly negotiated contracts...like sheep waiting for the slaughter? That is just how corporate America wants all Americans to be....and for the most part, they are. While the Gov't may not have done "anything wrong" yet, they ARE THREATENING TO TAKE AWAY A LEGALLY NEGOTIATED CONTRACT... and that might make people feel the need to fight back... gee, a lot like the colonists felt they had to break the law to fight for independence from England... we could have waited like sheep then too.

What gets me is not the questioning of what can be addressed in an effort to get budgets under control, but the bullseye never seems to land on the biggies...Defense, Medicare, the Fed's willingness to give free $$ to banks so they can make more money off the people by making loans (with the peoples' money)... in education, ever see a state or local gov't go after the board of Ed. budget? Administrative salaries? (In NYS we even have a separate Ed. dept. in The Board Of Regents.) The waste is at the top, not at the bottom, yet the puppeteers pull the strings and the public dances to their tune... "don't look here for the problem... look at the teachers who actually serve your kids, the police who actually patrol the streets, the firefighters who actually put out your fires..."

In the mean time, school are mandated by state and federal gov't to take on more responsibilities, duties with out the slightest discussion that they are changing the job description without negotiating pay increase for the extra tasks (not to mention the need to parent for many families). This gives the impression to local residents that the district is wasting their $$ but in fact much of the increase in local budgets are due to the fact that the feds and states are giving the localities less than they agreed to contribute for education.

In your Dad's union, did they often take on added work for no added $?
Did they offer to give up benefits so companies could balance their books without some other compensation? I have seen many district employees give back, or lower their contract negotiation expectations in tough times, only to see that when times get better, nothing is ever given back. I do not have a great love of unions (there's plenty of room for improvement there), but I do know that they are not the enemy of the American public. They are a scape goat, cleverly dangled in front the "angry ones" like teabaggers who oppose any "socialist" ideas while they drive on public roads regulated by public traffic signs and lights, and are protected by public law enforcement... and the older ones collecting their Medicare and Social Security... why are they not offering to give THAT back?

And I'm sure this is just drawing in the best and most talented college students to go into education... how will that ever happen when they get to take lower pay than many private sector jobs AND get attacked on every front... the smart kids are just lining up for that opportunity I'm sure.


We could teach them there's a right way and a wrong way to do things. The teachers could have stayed in the classrooms where they were supposed to be until the weekend and then staged their protests, if nothing else this would also have helped the working parents of those children in dealing with the need for finding people to care for their children during the week.

I agree the cuts probably could be (and should be) made elsewhere but the fact is the teachers didn't feel it was a problem until it directly affected them. Where was their outrage when cuts were being made that affected everyone else?

The voters in the state knew what this guy's plan was and the majority elected him to do just that. Sure it sucks for them but that's what elections are about, voting in folks who promise to do the job you want them to do.

I'm not sure that my Dad's union gave back anything, I was young back then, I do remember they were on strike for awhile and we ended up having to go on welfare for a bit so they probably didn't. I do know that when I was on our negotiating team we didn't give back anything to the city without getting something else in return.

Like I said, this will probably end up in court, that's where the real battle will be. If the state does break the contract there will be hell to pay if the courts then backs them up.

I just heard the union leaders are calling for the teachers to return to their jobs so hopefully cooler heads are prevailing and they're working something out.

#215 Deadshow Dan

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 10:51 PM

Now, you keep screaming about me personally attacking you and I've asked you to point out where I've done that. I'm still waiting. Could you please either point it out or at least apologize for accusing me of doing it?

"screaming"? :rolleyes:

I've pointed out the attacks. You've presented what I consider a lame-ass defense that they aren't.

I'm done with it.. though history is you'll attack me again, instead of talking about the the topic of the thread.

#216 Deadshow Dan

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 10:54 PM

The voters in the state knew what this guy's plan was and the majority elected him to do just that. Sure it sucks for them but that's what elections are about, voting in folks who promise to do the job you want them to do.

Please point to where 'this guy's plan' was to gut collective bargaining for public employees while he was running for office.

As far as I know he never revealed that, but admittedly I did not follow the Wisconsin governor race closely.

#217 Joker

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 11:11 PM

"screaming"? :rolleyes:

I've pointed out the attacks. You've presented what I consider a lame-ass defense that they aren't.

I'm done with it.. though history is you'll attack me again, instead of talking about the the topic of the thread.

Really???

I haven't seen you point out one personal attack yet. In fact, I just went through the thread again and didn't find you backing up what you falsely accused me of doing.

That you now decide your "done with it" when called on it, comes as no surprise.

#218 IT_Buzz

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 11:36 PM

Anybody hear that the unions offered to work at reduced wages and the governor turned them down? Saw it on another board last night, but don't recall which one.

#219 Joker

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 12:21 AM

Please point to where 'this guy's plan' was to gut collective bargaining for public employees while he was running for office.

As far as I know he never revealed that, but admittedly I did not follow the Wisconsin governor race closely.


Who said anything about the guy's plan being to "gut collective bargaining" other than you? Nobody.

Intellectual dishonesty is dishonesty in performing intellectual activities like thought or communication.

http://en.wikipedia....tual_dishonesty


His plan was to balance the budget. One campaign promise was

Walker also stayed true to a campaign promise of requiring public employees to contribute a greater cut of their salaries to their health care plans and pensions. As of now, public employees make no contributions to their pensions and a modest contribution to their health care plans.

http://chippewa.com/...1cc4c03286.html

From the sounds of it he likes to keep his promises.

He's got some good ideas under his education promises in the walk-o-meter link


http://politifact.co...paign-promises/

http://www.politifac...s/walk-o-meter/

#220 Joker

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 12:24 AM

Anybody hear that the unions offered to work at reduced wages and the governor turned them down? Saw it on another board last night, but don't recall which one.

Yes. But it doesn't look like it'll do any good

The governor stressed he would not seek to negotiate with union leaders, who represent the affected 175,000 state and local employees.

“For those who might ask, ’Why not bargain for this?’ Again, we’re not negotiating over a budget. If you’re going to negotiate, you’re going to do it in good faith, you have to have something to offer. The state’s broke, local governments (are) broke. They don’t have anything to offer,” he said.

As of now, unions have the ability to collectively bargain on their wages, pension contributions and health care plans.

Under Walker’s budget repair package, unions would only be able to collectively bargain their wages. Any wage increases above the rate of inflation would require voter approval.

The governor is also pushing to make Wisconsin a “Right to Work” state where public employees have the option of not financially supporting unions. As of now, unionized state workers take a cut in their wages to pay union dues.



More
http://chippewa.com/...1cc4c03286.html

#221 IT_Buzz

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 12:25 AM

[quote name='Joker']Yes. But it doesn't look like it'll do any good

The governor stressed he would not seek to negotiate with union leaders, who represent the affected 175,000 state and local employees.



#222 Lostsailr

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 12:26 AM

Weeeeeeeell existence of personal attacks or not, thoughtful discussion on topics like this are the only way our country will ever get our collective heads out of our collective :booty:'s
Communication and discourse only result in any understanding or idea exchange if parties try not to call each other's point of view :lame:

I see why one might think that these folks should have waited for the weekend so as to have no impact on the kids and their parents, but I also know Americans often take little notice of anyone else's issues unless their lives become inconvenienced.

Teachers do not tend, as a group, to wait until budget issue affect them to be involved. One of the "jobs" we face every year is trying to inform our communities about the reality of school budgets, to try to balance the loud voices of those who would have people believe that schools are just milking the tax payer for their own benefit. Many also are actively involved in PAC's to try to give some leverage to pro-education issues midst all the lobbyists who convince local state and Federal gov't that their corporations should pay less property tax. They would add to the burden on the private citizen... who becomes frustrated by their tax increase, and who see only the public employees (teachers in this case) and their unions as the reason for these increases. Since the politicians get more $$ from these folks and their corporations that most individuals can give, they often go along with the charade that it is the employees' fault that the budget is out of hand.

I have always declined to contribute to our PAC because I believe that Lobbyists are the sludge that often prevents our gov't from acting on behalf of the people, but at this point I am ready to pitch right in. I chose my profession based on the contracts the unions and school boards/ state agreed to. And I am not against negotiations to modify those contracts (as we do every 3-4 years), but I do object to loosing the ability to use collective bargaining through my union to reach these agreements.

You should really see the whole list of state and federal mandates forced upon schools with no funds to cover them, tests no one can pay for, after and before school programs to help with students' nutritional and supervisory needs, counseling for a wider array of of behavioral and emotional needs... all of which professional educators and related professionals take on because it has to be done. But who raises these issues at budget times? Only the teachers. And the situation is similar for all public employees I know. Do more work, with less $$ for supplies/equipment/training. And every year...fret that you will be cut as your department down sizes. Do private sector folks really think this only happens "out there". Cause it happens every year "in here".

Seriously, I do feel that open discussion is a great freedom we have in this country, it would just be nice to see us use it with the dignity our forefathers had in mind when they assured the right in our constitution.
Let's "try to help him to understand" instead of marginalizing anyone who disagrees. I know, I'm in a dream world, but that was the reason I went into education.

Thanks for the opportunity to listen and express :rose:

#223 Joker

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 12:30 AM

Well I guess if you complain about personal attacks long enough someone will eventually move the thread even if there were none.

Good work on ending a lively debate.

Lost take a look at his education promises in that link. What do you think about his ideas?

#224 Deadshow Dan

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 04:10 AM

Who said anything about the guy's plan being to "gut collective bargaining" other than you? Nobody.

Intellectual dishonesty is dishonesty in performing intellectual activities like thought or communication.

http://en.wikipedia....tual_dishonesty


Again you go personal at the first chance you can :rolleyes:, no wonder this got moved.

--------

First of all you're wrong about no one else saying this is about gutting the collective bargaining, others have pointed to it in this thread, and it's why good workers across Wisconsin have come to capital to protest. (heck Fox News has a poll on their website that describes it as ending collective bargaining)

Also, having read this thread more than once you know there was a surplus coming in, I provided link above and someone very much on the opposite side from my political views even confirmed that:

That does appear to be the case. Even a check with less-biased sources than the one you present Dan ( :tongue1: ), many are saying Wisconsin is on course to actually finish this year with a budget surplus. So it makes you wonder what exactly the motive is for the governor.

Heck it was in response to your assertion that I answered with the link that SYB 'fact-checked' at other places.

----------

Second let's go back to the issue of staying on topic and not getting personal. When you asserted that he was just solving a budget mess, when you asserted he was just doing what he promised (when in fact there s no evidence he made no such promise to gut collective bargaining) you were wrong.

Did I go after you and call you intellectually dishonest about either of those? No.

Stick to the issue. That's the behavior that continues civil discussions.

There can be no doubt that if I had asserted this union busting plan was to fix a fiscal mess, and you thought there wasn't a fiscal mess you would have, as usual, as you have done for years, called me dishonest... intellectually dishonest... whatever. That is the behavior that needs to stop.

Assert that I am wrong, show the proof you have, state your opinion about the issue. But do not talk about me.


  • You're wrong about me in the most fundamental ways.
  • Furthermore it's irrelevant what you think of me.
  • These attacks are a poison to civil discussion.
  • And I think everyone already knows about your dishonest, biased, bigoted and hateful thoughts about me. No need to repeat them. Everyone knows.


#225 staggerlee024

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 04:39 AM

Anybody hear that the unions offered to work at reduced wages and the governor turned them down? Saw it on another board last night, but don't recall which one.



yep.

man is out to kill unionization. and is funded by the koch brothers.

#226 staggerlee024

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 04:40 AM

Only 5 states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have
deemed it illegal. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are:
South Carolina (50th), North Carolina (49th), Georgia (48th), Texas (47th)
Virginia (44th). If you are wondering, Wisconsin, with it's collective
bargaining for teachers, is ranked 2nd in the country. Let's keep it
that way.

#227 TEO

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 01:17 PM

How does the unionization of teaches translate to higher ACT/SAT scores? Wouldn't that be a result of education standards as well as impacted by the overall importance placed on education?

#228 Joker

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 04:37 PM

Again you go personal at the first chance you can :rolleyes:, no wonder this got moved.

There's no personal attack there either. Are you feeling alright?

--------

First of all you're wrong about no one else saying this is about gutting the collective bargaining, others have pointed to it in this thread, and it's why good workers across Wisconsin have come to capital to protest. (heck Fox News has a poll on their website that describes it as ending collective bargaining)

Also, having read this thread more than once you know there was a surplus coming in, I provided link above and someone very much on the opposite side from my political views even confirmed that:


Heck it was in response to your assertion that I answered with the link that SYB 'fact-checked' at other places.

----------

First of all no one else in this thread said anything about his plan before being elected was to gut collective bargaining.

Also I never denied there wasn't a surplus, in fact I highlighted part of a link showing that there WAS a surplus.

You may have missed that though because it also showed how the previous Democratic Governor's administration had told Walker he would have to cope with a huge deficit in the upcoming budget.

Here let me post it again for you, see THE BOTTOM LINE?

Madison

#229 Joker

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 04:40 PM

Only 5 states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have
deemed it illegal. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are:
South Carolina (50th), North Carolina (49th), Georgia (48th), Texas (47th)
Virginia (44th). If you are wondering, Wisconsin, with it's collective
bargaining for teachers, is ranked 2nd in the country. Let's keep it
that way.

I believe Walker actually has a plan in place to reward the better teachers.

#230 Kuzsin

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 02:49 PM

Well for the most part, teachers are eager to teach and help. The longer they are in the system, the more jaded they become and just go through the motions until they get their 30 years. There is no reward system to entice them otherwise. Further, they are grossly underpaid. Then you have a bunch of politicians placing ridiculous standards on them that do nothing but handcuff the entire system and coddle disruptive asshole kids that ruin it for pretty much everyone else unless you are fortunate to get into an honours class where they put the good students. The other students, who may not be the best but are far from the worst are stuck in classes with these little shit heads.

Kids should be able to be left behind.


...very well put halfstar........another thing i would like to add also...is that the "medical benefits" add a lot to the big picture....the plans are driving up costs and the coverage is poor....

#231 Joker

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 10:31 PM

Pro-union website blocked in Wisconsin Capitol

Madison, Wisconsin (CNN) -- A left-leaning website that union supporters used to rally protesters in Wisconsin was partially blocked as demonstrators gathered in the state Capitol over a controversial budget bill.

The website, defendwisconsin.org, could not be accessed on Monday and into Tuesday morning in the Capitol building, where crowds assembled over proposed legislation that would increase the costs of benefits to public employees and curb their collective-bargaining rights.

Wisconsin Democratic Party press secretary Graeme Zielinski blamed Gov. Scott Walker and Republican lawmakers -- who returned to work Tuesday -- for causing the outage.

"In a direct assault on the First Amendment, Scott Walker's administration is blocking access in the Wisconsin Capitol to opposition websites," Zielinski said.

The governor's spokesman, Cullen Werwie, responded Tuesday, calling the accusation "a lie."

"The Department of Administration blocks all new websites shortly after they are created, until they go through a software approval program that unblocks them," Werwie said. "Within 30 minutes of being notified this website was blocked, DOA circumvented the software and immediately made the website accessible."

He said, "The Democratic Party should spend less time lying about Gov. Walker and more time trying to get their AWOL state senators back to Wisconsin," referring to Democratic efforts to prevent a quorum in the Senate.

Cont...
http://www.cnn.com/2...dget/index.html

#232 beerzrkr

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 07:59 PM

"It

#233 Joker

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 12:22 PM

On Prank Call, Wis. Governor Discusses Strategy



#234 staggerlee024

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 02:05 PM

[quote name='beerzrkr']"It

#235 beerzrkr

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 03:08 PM

Actually, I have posted links to the salaries and average wages that can be linked to these teachers by county. One thing my teacher salary link shows that Dan

#236 staggerlee024

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 08:13 PM

my friend works in the district. full time. looked her up on your site. she makes $38K. Is that really what we are going to call 'doing damned well'?

if you don't stratify in any way, it may look like public sector workers make more than private. however, there are many more low-skilled positions in the private sector. this tips the scale. if you correct for education level, public sector workers make about 10% less. The gap widens for higher education levels. This is nationwide. I do not know Wisconsin specific.

and that still does not address the fact that the union has agreed to every economic concession put forward by the governor.

#237 beerzrkr

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 08:46 PM

Then they shouldn't have any trouble at all finding a better job with a 10% pay raise in the private sector after they get fired as Mr. Root suggests.

#238 staggerlee024

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 09:57 PM

your argument on this lacks any sort of logic.

#239 beerzrkr

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 10:44 PM

Anyone but the government handing you a check confuses you?

#240 staggerlee024

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 12:20 AM

do you have an argument here?

#241 beerzrkr

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 03:44 PM

I’ve shown teacher salaries. I’ve shown average family incomes of the folks who pay teacher salaries in the same areas as those teachers. It seems to me that they are doing great. Yet they complain that they are below what they believe their equivalent in the private sector is making. I don’t have an argument. I have a statement. Fire them so they can make the money they want. It should be easily obtainable for them since they believe everyone else is doing better than them. Mr. Root had a point that I kind of agree with.


The bottom line is, the union is to powerful in the government sector. In the private sector the business still has to make money to keep the lights on and make payroll which gives the people who need to keep the business rolling a little say during the bargaining phase. This isn’t the case in the government. When push comes to shove and cuts have to be made the teachers union and school boards aren't going to cut waste, abuse, and sometimes fraud. No, they cut the highest visibility positions that will get people angry, the teachers. In the county, state, and city it will be police and firemen.

#242 staggerlee024

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 04:08 PM

facts are facts. public sector workers make less than the private sector counter parts. does not mean they should quit. or any other cockamamy idea the anti-worker right comes up with. facts are facts. that is all.

there is an argument here for the workers making concessions on pay and benefits. they have done that. there is absolutely no argument here, other than the desire to take power away from workers, to strip employees of the right to organize and bargain collectively.

#243 TEO

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 04:16 PM

Wonder when someone will figure out we can import teacher's from other countries for less?

#244 staggerlee024

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 07:44 PM

i am sure the right would be all for that. or, better yet, just get rid of public ed. altogether. it is too expensive.



:coffee:

#245 staggerlee024

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 06:14 AM

http://news.yahoo.co...dget_the_debate

In a report released in December 2010, the federal [COLOR=#366388 ! important][COLOR=#366388 ! important]Bureau [COLOR=#366388 ! important]of [/COLOR][COLOR=#366388 ! important]Labor [/COLOR][COLOR=#366388 ! important]Statistics[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR] found that the average state/local government worker earns $40.10 an hour in salary and benefits. The same report found the average private worker earns $27.68 an hour in salary and benefits.
But the report was quick to note that this is not a direct comparison. Government workers tend to be better-educated than their private-sector counterparts, and government jobs are more likely to be professional or managerial as opposed to the many more manufacturing and sales jobs in the private work force.
In fact, studies that compare salaries and benefits for similar jobs between the public and private sectors show that government workers lag.
An April 2010 report by the Center for State & Local Government Excellence — a nonpartisan, Washington-based group with Republicans and Democrats on its board of directors — found that in 2008, state workers nationwide earned 11 percent less and local workers earned 12 percent less than private workers with comparable education levels.
The same study found that in Wisconsin between 2000 and 2008, total compensation for state and local workers was less than comparable private sector workers.
Jeff McArthur, a sergeant at Black River Correctional Center, estimated under Walker's plan he would lose about $400 a month from his $45,000-a-year salary. The 41-year-old father of three said his family would definitely feel the difference.
"The first things that are going to go are luxury things," McArthur said. "We'll cut back on our cable. We'll cut back on our cell phones. We won't take family trips, stuff like that. We are not rich. We just want to have a good middle class life. We're not looking to be rich. We're just looking to get by."

#246 beerzrkr

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Posted 27 February 2011 - 02:34 PM

Then they shouldn't have any trouble at all finding a better job with a 10% pay raise in the private sector after they get fired as Mr. Root suggests.


!


And if the dem's don't get back to work that is what will happen.

#247 Depends

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 12:36 AM

When discussing the Solidarity movement in Poland, then candidate Ronald Reagan said, "They remind us that where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost." September 1, 1980

#248 beerzrkr

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 03:05 PM

Collective bargaining isn

#249 staggerlee024

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Posted 28 February 2011 - 04:43 PM

[quote name='beerzrkr']Collective bargaining isn

#250 Bone Daddy

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 04:22 AM

So I heard on the radio tonight that wisconsin's senate and house passed the law. Now what happens? :popcorn: