342 replies to this topic

[seany]

You misunderstand my position on health insurance. The issue in Massachusetts was that individuals were being forced to purchase the product from a private corporation. Same issue with the federal plan. No public option.

Still do not think i should be required to purchase car insurance if i don't own a car.

I also have a good friend that is a member of the teacher's union in Wisconsin. Been a Music teacher out there for about 4 years now. She is out protesting every day.

Nobody is required to purchase car insurance if they don't own a car. Where did you get that? You can't drive an uninsured car, though. And if you live with someone and regularly drive their car, then you need to be added to their policy (at some expense, I'm sure).

The health insurance issue is never going to get better unless the "pool" is full. VT just completed a study indicating that the state could save millions if they moved to a single payer model and there is a very good chance they will push to implement that ahead of the Obama plan's 2014 deadline. They'd put it out to bid and if a private insurer could meet the coverage requirements they could get the contract (for x years), else the state would manage it. But the savings of having everyone enrolled and everything going through a single insurer would be substantial - enough to get everyone in the state insured. Anyone with the means would be required to pay something though. No more just going to the emergency room and having the hospital chase after you to pay.

[Deadshow Dan]

The attack on the middle class continues.

This attack that has completely redistributed the wealth in this country.... and we know it's been redistributed up.... was re-born during President Reagan's years. Cut taxes on the rich, bust unions, attack labor laws, deregulate, etc. etc.

It's been going on for 30 years now and the result of these policies is a massive shift in power, in quality of life.

What's remarkable to me is the extent that people want to drag people down along with them, all the while accepting the greed of some of the rich. 'Things are bad for me, so why should you make good money?' to those making $60,000 plus good benefits (oddly while defending tax cuts for the wealthy... basically cash from the government)

Completely misdirected anger

[seany]

No doubt there is a lot of misplaced anger out there, but at the same time people are seeing their towns and states going bankrupt and have to rightly question where the money goes. My friend has worked for social services in WI for 17 years and there's rarely a day that goes by that she's not pulling her hair out and ready to storm the castle because of the massive bureaucracy of the system that gets in the way of her doing her job. Either that, or the gross incompetence of her colleagues. Sadly, financial circumstances are forcing her and her husband to move to AZ this spring, so she'll never realize the pension she has worked for. Still, she's fighting the good fight against the Walker proposal.

[bigtoddy]

Stagger, you ever had a real job with a real company that actually derives its budget from actually producing anything? Get back to me after you've spent a minute in the real world, you might have a different view.

[staggerlee024]

please enlighten me on this 'real world' you speak of, bigtoddy...

[bigtoddy]

You've got to experience it to understand it. Make something. Add value. Create wealth. It tends to change your perspective a little.

[staggerlee024]

The thought process that allows one chump worker to believe that he/she is somehow more valuable or 'better' than another chump worker is exactly part of the problem.

[Joker]

So it seems like the Gov. is doing what he was elected to do (solve the fiscal mess)

Meanwhile all those union workers have been out of work protesting (probably using sick time) rather than going to work, forcing schools all over the state to be shut down for 3+ days, disrupting their students educations and forcing God knows how many other parents into missing work in order to stay home and take care of their children.

Then we have the Democratic politicians who chose to flee their state and their constituents rather than show up to do the job they were elected to, as well as being paid to do.

Seems to me the vast majority of citizen's in that state should be directing their anger at those not doing their jobs thereby costing the state, and ultimately every tax paying citizen, even more money

[Shake Yer Bones]

I've been a represented employee for nigh on 15 years now, but it's only because I have no choice. I have to be a part of it because of my job title. Thank God I don't have to pay dues, because this union is absolutely worthless. We've actually moved backwards since I started in 1996.

Unions had their day and did great things for the workers in this country. Today, there's a lot of corruption coming outta of the unions and they do more harm than good. I can understand the need for them, but I can also see how much damage they do, specifically in driving up costs. Why am I going to pay union wages for a plumber or electrician when I can find someone else to do the same job for $10 or $15 less per hour?

[bigtoddy]

The thought process that allows one chump worker to believe that he/she is somehow more valuable or 'better' than another chump worker is exactly part of the problem.

I'm sorry you are a chump worker. I, however, am not. I guess that's the difference. If I was a chump worker, I'd want to hide and be protected by those better than me too.

[elder]

You're wrong if you think any Democratic governor would do this.

I agree with you 100%.

With the amount of money that the Unions contribute to the Democratic parties in EVERY state, theres no way Dems would ever go anti-union. No way.

They're the "working man's party" after all

[halfstar]

2 points:
First, there are laws protecting basic rights as workers. Government has stepped in to be the referee, where they did not in the past. You think you need a union to protect the 40 hour work week? Probably not as its law at this point in the game.

/thread

Unions use fear to drive membership. I see it is working. The more people in the union, the more power and money the union staff makes. Unions these days exist to serve the board and not the worker.

/thread

[Shake Yer Bones]

The thought process that allows one chump worker to believe that he/she is somehow more valuable or 'better' than another chump worker is exactly part of the problem.

I disagree. Some workers are better and more valuable than other workers. Business owners, for the most part, want the best workers they can find to optimize production. It's like a sports team ... you want the best athletes/workers you can find. The bad ones are released.

[cdrhead]

sell me a t-shirt and stop bitchin

[vic]

I personally think unions would be unnecessary if the government did it's job in protecting worker's rights. Unfortunately they usually don't, making unions still necessary.

And the only government employees "bringing government down" is the elected politicians who make the rules. Most government employees I know are just regular hard workers trying to do their job. Heck, I'm a (state) government employee and I'm hard at work right now

I think it's a straw man to say union= shitty workers. Yes, there may be a problem with shitty workers. Ok, but why does that mean unions are unnecessary? If they are protecting workers at all costs, then maybe. So don't protect workers at all costs. But most unions I've been a part of do things like negotiate overall salaries, make sure we have benefits, provide a place to go for workers who might be unfairly treated, etc . I've been fired from a unionized job when I was a shitty worker, and the union didn't intervene in any way, so where does all this stuff about unions protecting shitty workers come from?

The other argument is "everyone else has a crappy job, why should union jobs get better wages and benefits?" I think the answer to that is that we need more unionization, not less. Yeah in a 'free market' you can find people who will work for lower and lower wages. But what does that mean for our society as a whole? It means fewer and fewer jobs that pay at the level in which the workers can support their family, and lots of people working for minimum wage- which is not enough to live on. Yeah "get a better job" ok, but someone needs to do all the crappy jobs in society- it's not like we can have a society in which EVERYONE has the better paying jobs requiring a college degree, or else our buildings wouldn't be clean, we wouldn't be able to order our crappy mcdonalds breakfast, we wouldn't have people to wipe our asses in the hospital, etc. So yeah, some people can get better jobs, but our society as a whole needs people to do the crap work in order for society to run. So why not appreciate those people by paying them a wage that they can actually afford to live on? If the government would step in and say "yeah, let's do that" we wouldn't have a problem. But they're not doing that. Hence the need for unions.

/thread

[Joker]

sell me a t-shirt and stop bitchin

Made in China'd

[reba]

I agree with you 100%.

With the amount of money that the Unions contribute to the Democratic parties in EVERY state, theres no way Dems would ever go anti-union. No way.

They're the "working man's party" after all

Police & firefighters unions are exempt from the Wisconsin bill.
They supported the Rep. Gov. in his bid for the capitol.

Corrections officers union didn't so they are not exempt.

[halfstar]

The easier someone is to replace, the less value they have. Anyone can empty trash cans. therefore, the supply of worker is larger and the value is less. If the janitor made as much as the CEO, the company would be out of business in a day and the whole company would be unemployed. You can't artificially raise someone's wage simply because they are human. The market doesn't work that way.

[Deadshow Dan]

So it seems like the Gov. is doing what he was elected to do (solve the fiscal mess)

That sure is what he wants you to believe, but according to other sources, this fiscal crisis is one of his own doing. Here's one newspaper's editorial that addresses this:
http://host.madison....7c8b2aaaf6.html
[B]Walker gins up

[vic]

The easier someone is to replace, the less value they have. Anyone can empty trash cans. therefore, the supply of worker is larger and the value is less. If the janitor made as much as the CEO, the company would be out of business in a day and the whole company would be unemployed. You can't artificially raise someone's wage simply because they are human. The market doesn't work that way.

the market has NO interest in the benefit of society, only profit margins...this is why market based economy is just bad news and why we have sweatshop workers making starve-to-death wages in 3rd world countries, because government didn't have our backs when all the jobs were allowed to be outsourced...theses "laws in place to protect workers" don't stop companies from making mass layoffs and the market encourages them because it's more cost efficient to pay slave wages elsewhere

the market is not human and the market is not a religion...motherfuck the market

[Deadshow Dan]

From the link above:

"the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau recently released a memo detailing how the state will end the 2009-2011 budget biennium with a budget surplus.
In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million."
http://legis.wiscons...Vos&Darling.pdf

[Deadshow Dan]

I agree with you 100%.

With the amount of money that the Unions contribute to the Democratic parties in EVERY state, theres no way Dems would ever go anti-union. No way.

They're the "working man's party" after all

The money and support of unions are definitely party of it.

And you can see some of the motivation for the attack on the unions is just having to do with that.

[bigtoddy]

Police & firefighters unions are exempt from the Wisconsin bill.
They supported the Rep. Gov. in his bid for the capitol.

Corrections officers union didn't so they are not exempt.

Don't let the facts get in your way, that's not exactly how it worked. Most police and FF unions did not support Walker.
They are exempt because he has no plans to replace them in the case of temper tantrums, er, strikes.

(I don't necessarily agree with these exemptions, but its not political payback. If anything its fear of reprisal from police union thuggery. I guess he calculated the other workers were puss's)

[halfstar]

the market has NO interest in the benefit of society, only profit margins...this is why market based economy is just bad news and why we have sweatshop workers making starve-to-death wages in 3rd world countries, because government didn't have our backs when all the jobs were allowed to be outsourced...theses "laws in place to protect workers" don't stop companies from making mass layoffs and the market encourages them because it's more cost efficient to pay slave wages elsewhere

the market is not human and the market is not a religion...motherfuck the market

If there weren't a market how would your union employees make a fair wage?

You should just move to France.

[Shake Yer Bones]

That sure is what he wants you to believe, but according to other sources, this fiscal crisis is one of his own doing. Here's one newspaper's editorial that addresses this ....

That does appear to be the case. Even a check with less-biased sources than the one you present Dan ( ), many are saying Wisconsin is on course to actually finish this year with a budget surplus. So it makes you wonder what exactly the motive is for the governor.

And as much as I do believe unions do more harm than good these days, I can't agree with a move to strip collective bargaining. The workers in this country should, at the very least, be able to negotiate in good faith. If that's what these workers are protesting, then good on them. But if they're protesting having to pay more into their pensions and health care system, the screw 'em.

[reba]

Don't let the facts get in your way, that's not exactly how it worked. Most police and FF unions did not support Walker.
They are exempt because he has no plans to replace them in the case of temper tantrums, er, strikes.

(I don't necessarily agree with these exemptions, but its not political payback. If anything its fear of reprisal from police union thuggery. I guess he calculated the other workers were puss's)

You got a link to your facts? I'll find where I got mine. I just read a few articles. I have to look through them to find which one it was that outlined it.
Thanks for thinking IDK the facts, or didn't bother trying to find them. Your right....I just say whatever comes to mind....

[Goose]

[quote name='Deadshow Dan']The bottom line is evident to anyone who cares to pay attention not to the spin but to the budget figures: Walker is manufacturing a fiscal

[halfstar]

http://t0.gstatic.co...A7PKrwCCr6Q&t=1

[staggerlee024]

I'm sorry you are a chump worker. I, however, am not. I guess that's the difference. If I was a chump worker, I'd want to hide and be protected by those better than me too.

[vic]

If there weren't a market how would your union employees make a fair wage?

You should just move to France.

too much reliance on this market is a major problem for society...the market does not create resources, nature does. people are starving not because there isn't food, but because the market dictates who gets to eat. people are denied healthcare not because of shortages in medicine, but because healthcare is for profit, which benefits humans how? the market says it's more valuable to keep someone alive and sick and needing costly treatment than it is to cure a person. shitty products are made because the market says it's more profitable to make products that break or become obsolete than it is to make a durable product that someone only needs to but once. the market has no interest in human life. the market is not a living thing. the market is not a god. the market is not neccessary. the market is killing us.

[Tim the Beek]

the happy medium here seems like union reform.

While I'm pretty fiscally conservative, and if you wanted to stick a political label on me, it would read, "libertarian," it seems to me that legislating away the right of people to band together for their common interest is an assault on freedom.

Something should be done to reform labor, but this ain't it.

[vic]

This is what is happening where I live too, and all over the country. They Cry broke and say they HAVE TO screw the little guy when it's clear that they're not broke. Corporations are starting to do it too, making huge profits while slashing benefits and pay to bring workers more "in line with the Status Quo". They'll be coming after your pay soon too, if they haven't already. It's not just a Union issue it's a labor issue.

correct

[Joker]

That sure is what he wants you to believe, but according to other sources, this fiscal crisis is one of his own doing. Here's one newspaper's editorial that addresses this:
http://host.madison....7c8b2aaaf6.html

Do you even TRY to find unbiased sources? Hell this paper clearly identifies itself as "your progressive voice"

[halfstar]

too much reliance on this market is a major problem for society...the market does not create resources, nature does. people are starving not because there isn't food, but because the market dictates who gets to eat. people are denied healthcare not because of shortages in medicine, but because healthcare is for profit, which benefits humans how? the market says it's more valuable to keep someone alive and sick and needing costly treatment than it is to cure a person. shitty products are made because the market says it's more profitable to make products that break or become obsolete than it is to make a durable product that someone only needs to but once. the market has no interest in human life. the market is not a living thing. the market is not a god. the market is not neccessary. the market is killing us.

So we should all quit work, strip naked and live off the land, man?



You are officially off your rocker.

[vic]

So we should all quit work, strip naked and live off the land, man?



You are officially off your rocker.

never ever even hinted at that...but basic human needs should not be dictated by some rich cockdouche's profit margins...what's so hard to understand about that?

[vic]

http://www.bloomberg...in-to-ohio.html

[halfstar]

never ever even hinted at that...but basic human needs should not be dictated by some rich cockdouche's profit margins...what's so hard to understand about that?

What basic human rights are "rich cockdouche's profit margins" prohibiting?

[Deadshow Dan]

[quote name='Shake Yer Bones']That does appear to be the case. Even a check with less-biased sources than the one you present Dan ( ), [/quote]

[quote name='Deadshow Dan']From the link above:

"the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau recently released a memo detailing how the state will end the 2009-2011 budget biennium with a budget surplus.
In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state

[Shake Yer Bones]

I think you mean sources with a bias you prefer

Anyway, as far as I can tell this report is from a group considered non-partisan one.

Nah, I checked the newspaper of record for Madison, Wisc., not the weekly alternative publication. That said, the numbers between the 2 sources jive and I agree that the governor appears to be making something out of a "deficit" that doesn't even exist.

[Joker]

Here's something from the previous Dem. Gov himself before he left office


Report on Wisconsin’s budget deficit contains hidden costs
$2.2 billion deficit balloons to $3.3 billion without assumed spending cuts

Nov. 19, 2010 |(101) COMMENTS

Madison — Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle's administration on Friday told Republican Governor-elect Scott Walker that he would have to cope with a $2.2 billion deficit in the state's upcoming two-year budget, but this brighter-than-expected forecast contained more than $1 billion in hidden pain.

To arrive at the favorable estimate, the Doyle administration's estimate assumed that Walker and lawmakers would make spending cuts that have yet to actually happen - two more years of state employee furloughs, no pay raises, a virtual hiring freeze and belt tightening in state health programs. Without that $1.1 billion in savings, the state's projected shortfall rises to $3.3 billion - a significant increase over previous estimates that put the gap at between $2.7 billion and $3.1 billion.

The shortfall and the efforts to close it could affect everything from schools and health care to local governments and taxpayers.

The "revenue projections released Friday underscore what Governor-elect Walker has said for months - the state of Wisconsin is facing very serious budget challenges," Walker transition director John Hiller said in a statement. "Further, we believe that the true budget shortfall is much higher than indicated by the projections released today."

State Administration Secretary Dan Schooff defended the decision to use the rosier deficit figure by saying there was broad agreement on some future spending cuts such as not filling state positions - a position that Walker campaigned on.

"We don't see any scenario where you don't continue" those cuts, Schooff said. "I think the true number's $2.2 billion."

Partisan disputes over the size of the shortfall are common in the lead-up to budget deliberations, especially at times such as this one, when voters in the Nov. 2 election chose to shift control of both the governor's office and Legislature from Democrats to Republicans. In this case a smaller number helps Democrats by minimizing the problem they leave behind and a larger number helps Republicans by bracing the public for tough choices and magnifying their accomplishment when the shortfall is actually closed.

The bottom line: The numbers in the report show challenges ahead - this year's budget surplus is estimated at a razor-thin $10 million out of an annual budget in the state's main account of $13.54 billion. That surplus is only enough to run state government for about 6 1/2 hours and could be wiped out by possible rising costs for health programs, prisons and public defenders.

Cont...
http://www.jsonline..../109275069.html

[vic]

What basic human rights are "rich cockdouche's profit margins" prohibiting?

healthcare, for starters

[Deadshow Dan]

Nah, I checked the newspaper of record for Madison, Wisc.

I'm curious, is that a Gannet one?

[Joker]

WI Gov.-elect Scott Walker to inherit projected $3.3 billion budget deficit
November 24th, 2010 10:13 am CT



Wisconsin Gov.-elect Scott Walker was the recipient of the unwelcome news that he will be inheriting a projected budget deficit as high as $3.3 billion over the next two years. Last week, the Wisconsin Department of Administration (DOA) published a report announcing there would be a $1.5 billion gap between state revenue and state spending through June 30, 2013. It appears that the news is much grimmer than that, however.

Nearly $1.8 billion in extra costs

As published on JSOnline, John Hiller, Walker transition director, said,

[Arglebargle]

Understanding the Attacks on Public Employees


by: Dave Johnson | Campaign for America's Future | Op-Ed

You can barely open a newspaper or turn on a radio without hearing about states and local governments bankrupted by high-paid public employees, their pensions and their unions. How much of what you are hearing is really true, and how much is just one more Wall Street-funded campaign to turn people against each other and our government?

What do we see if we look around at the state of the economy? Stocks are soaring, corporate profits are way up, Wall Street gets trillions in bailouts and pays millions upon millions in bonuses. But regular people are having a hard time making ends meet and unemployment is still through the roof. Instead of programs to create jobs, stop foreclosures and rebuild our crumbling infrastructure the government passes more tax cuts for the rich. A few Wall Street and big-corporate types are getting very rich (richer) at the expense of the rest of us. If you are sitting pretty on Wall Street, you probably don't want people thinking about these contrasts too much.

[halfstar]

healthcare, for starters

And how?

[vic]

[quote name='Arglebargle']Understanding the Attacks on Public Employees


by: Dave Johnson | Campaign for America's Future | Op-Ed

You can barely open a newspaper or turn on a radio without hearing about states and local governments bankrupted by high-paid public employees, their pensions and their unions. How much of what you are hearing is really true, and how much is just one more Wall Street-funded campaign to turn people against each other and our government?

What do we see if we look around at the state of the economy? Stocks are soaring, corporate profits are way up, Wall Street gets trillions in bailouts and pays millions upon millions in bonuses. But regular people are having a hard time making ends meet and unemployment is still through the roof. Instead of programs to create jobs, stop foreclosures and rebuild our crumbling infrastructure the government passes more tax cuts for the rich. A few Wall Street and big-corporate types are getting very rich (richer) at the expense of the rest of us. If you are sitting pretty on Wall Street, you probably don't want people thinking about these contrasts too much.

[Shake Yer Bones]

I'm curious, is that a Gannet one?

No, it's owned by Capital Newspapers.

[Deadshow Dan]

No, it's owned by Capital Newspapers.

well that takes away my joke. I was gonna KANG that it's not your choice of bias

[cdrhead]

This is what is happening where I live too, and all over the country. They Cry broke and say they HAVE TO screw the little guy when it's clear that they're not broke. Corporations are starting to do it too, making huge profits while slashing benefits and pay to bring workers more "in line with the Status Quo". They'll be coming after your pay soon too, if they haven't already. It's not just a Union issue it's a labor issue.

Well put

[TakeAStepBack]

too much reliance on this market is a major problem for society...the market does not create resources, nature does. people are starving not because there isn't food, but because the market dictates who gets to eat. people are denied healthcare not because of shortages in medicine, but because healthcare is for profit, which benefits humans how? the market says it's more valuable to keep someone alive and sick and needing costly treatment than it is to cure a person. shitty products are made because the market says it's more profitable to make products that break or become obsolete than it is to make a durable product that someone only needs to but once. the market has no interest in human life. the market is not a living thing. the market is not a god. the market is not neccessary. the market is killing us.

So we should all quit work, strip naked and live off the land, man?



You are officially off your rocker.

never ever even hinted at that...but basic human needs should not be dictated by some rich cockdouche's profit margins...what's so hard to understand about that?

Always have to take it to the extreme to squash the point. i agree with vic 100% here. The probelm is since birth people have been indoctrinated into the social structure that tells them to go out adn claim as much as they can, for themselves. Fuck anyone else. They need to get their own.
It is the sellf centered social structure we live in. It will also be the death of us...consume, consume, consume....