Dr. Lostreality
12-30-2008, 01:36 PM
This is probably not the forum for this, but it IS wedding related....
for those who don't know my story here it is in short: Raised orthodox jewish, getting married to a lapsed catholic in May (we have been together for 2 years), we are both firm atheists and against organized religion (like, if our kids happened to become religious we would be cool with that, but we would never deliberately want to try and take them to anything).
My parents, still orthodox, have completely refused to meet my fiance. Like, not even once. They have sent me many many long heartfelt letters about how I am destroying the family by marrying someone not jewish, they will have to move out of their community, etc. Basically, they are ashamed of what I am doing, and want to try and make it go away, or try to cover it up in some way
As you might imagine I haven't been on the best of terms with them lately, and in May, when visiting them without my fiance who had recently moved in with me, I decided that I could not longer visit them if they refuse to meet Brett. In July we got engaged and I called my parents to tell them- my dad tried to convince me that I didn't really need to get married, and my mom said nothing and then when I was like "Um...so what do you think?" She said "I have nothing to say, you know how I feel." Since then I've talked to my mom about 3 times on the phone. The last time, about 2 months ago, she said if I wanted to talk to her I can never mention anything about my fiance or our life together. I decided I'd rather not talk to her.
My parents have also told me that they can't come to my wedding because it would show they were 'condoning my decisions' Or some bullshit. So me it would show that they actually, you know, love me, despite our different decisions in life. But they don't see it that way.
My dad emailed me last week to say happy channukah and to pass on some family news. I wrote him back and told him that my fiance and I are thinking about having a baby sometime soon, and I decided to make one last effort (what can I say, I was buzzed on something or other and in a family mood). I wrote that I know that he is upset by the decisions I Have made in life, but that I don't NOT want a relationship with him; I want a relationship where we can both be honest with each other and where I don't have to lie whenever I talk to him. That I wanted a real relationship, and that no relationship was preferable to the fake impersonal relationship we have now. And that I was willing to try and have a relationship with him if I Could be more open.
This is what he responded:
Hi Arielle,
We received your last e-mail and I read it carefully. It made me think. I always try to figure out what would be a "win-win" solution to various problems. What would make both parties ultimately happy? So, while I was davening in shul this morning (sometimes I get my best ideas while davening) I thought of the following possible solution for our mutual dilemma.
A win-win situation here would be one where you & Brett would be accepted and included in our family. Where there would no longer have to be a strain in our relationship. Where any future children you seem to be planing would be welcome and included. For us, a win would be one where you married someone within our faith. While it would be ideal for you to marry a frum man and be observant yourself, we know that that you are not at that point in life now. Yet, we are sure you understand that we take Judaism very seriously and follow God's word literally.
So here is my suggestion. Although I haven't had the pleasure of being introduced to Brett yet, from what you have told me, the two of you are very fond of each other and want to marry and start a family. I am sure he loves you very much and would not want to put you in a position where you have to choose between him and the whole rest of your family. So since he loves you and since you tell me that you are both agnostic and being labeled one religion or another does not mean all that much anyway, why doesn't he convert to Judaism?
Sure, I understand that a conversion for him would not be 100% sincere at this time. But, it would allow for the two of you to be included in our extended orthodox families, it would be beneficial for the religious identity of any future children and, who knows, maybe he will actually come to enjoy and appreciate our traditions and customs over time. It would also be beneficial for your siblings since it would set a good example for Dovid and help Etan's chances of securing a future shidduch as well.
I would like you two to think about this for a while. If you guys would like further direction and counseling in this area I would suggest that you contact my Rabbi and friend, Rabbi XX, who is the Chabad Rabbi in XX. (About 30 years old, used to counsel college students and is very personable.) He does not know that I am suggesting this to you, but I have talked with him in the past about your situation and I am certain he would be amenable to helping out in any way he could. I believe this would involve some education/training on Brett's part to know what he is getting into, a private religious ceremony and dip in the mikvah pool and, when the time comes, a religious wedding ceremony (Chuppah) in addition to whatever else you both have planned, marriage-wise.
Rabbi XX can be reached at *Email and phone number removed*
I think this could be the win-win situation we all could live with. It's not a perfect solution but a workable option.
Best wishes,
Love,
Abba
Ok so I contacted him saying I wanted a more honest and open relationship with him, and he responded by saying he wants me to carry out some elaborate hoax where my fiance goes through a jewish conversion (and the guy he referred us to is orthodox, so this would be an intense one year process) so that he can save face in front of his friends and family?
There is so many things wrong with this email I don't even know where to start. For one, we're not agnostics, we're atheists, and joining any organized religion WOULD be a big deal. I don't want my kids to be raised in this religion. For another, who is my dad to say who is accepted into my extended orthodox family? I'm already friends with a lot of them on facebook, and probably have more contact with them then he does. For a third, I hate his condescending tone, like "I haven't had the pleasure of being introduced to him"...um yeah, I offered to set up a meeting of them like 20 times at least, and my dad refused every time. Fourth, this is the last and final way my dad is trying to control me- by saying he would accept us into their family if only my fiance goes through a conversion. But so what, Brett converts, and suddenly everything is magically fine? Um, maybe in my dad's eyes, but not to me! Fifth, this is total hypocracy..jewish law says you can't convert for a spouse or to make other people happy, but my dad apparently doesn't care about that, all he cares about is what other people think, and how he can try to get his hooks into us to slowly turn me (and my future children) back into a religious person.
I am so filled with rage now, and at this point the only thing I can think to respond is that the answer to the conversion question is NO, and if my dad thinks that I am so desperate for my family to love me that I would completely compromise everything I believe (and don't believe) in, then he is grossly mistaken, and that the real situation here is that if HE ever wants any relationship with me and my kids, then the only acceptable compromise to me is that he will welcome me and Brett into their home, and we will promise not to flagrantly ignore their religious rules while we are in their house. And if not, we will go our separate ways, and our kids will only ever know one set of grandparents.
for those who don't know my story here it is in short: Raised orthodox jewish, getting married to a lapsed catholic in May (we have been together for 2 years), we are both firm atheists and against organized religion (like, if our kids happened to become religious we would be cool with that, but we would never deliberately want to try and take them to anything).
My parents, still orthodox, have completely refused to meet my fiance. Like, not even once. They have sent me many many long heartfelt letters about how I am destroying the family by marrying someone not jewish, they will have to move out of their community, etc. Basically, they are ashamed of what I am doing, and want to try and make it go away, or try to cover it up in some way
As you might imagine I haven't been on the best of terms with them lately, and in May, when visiting them without my fiance who had recently moved in with me, I decided that I could not longer visit them if they refuse to meet Brett. In July we got engaged and I called my parents to tell them- my dad tried to convince me that I didn't really need to get married, and my mom said nothing and then when I was like "Um...so what do you think?" She said "I have nothing to say, you know how I feel." Since then I've talked to my mom about 3 times on the phone. The last time, about 2 months ago, she said if I wanted to talk to her I can never mention anything about my fiance or our life together. I decided I'd rather not talk to her.
My parents have also told me that they can't come to my wedding because it would show they were 'condoning my decisions' Or some bullshit. So me it would show that they actually, you know, love me, despite our different decisions in life. But they don't see it that way.
My dad emailed me last week to say happy channukah and to pass on some family news. I wrote him back and told him that my fiance and I are thinking about having a baby sometime soon, and I decided to make one last effort (what can I say, I was buzzed on something or other and in a family mood). I wrote that I know that he is upset by the decisions I Have made in life, but that I don't NOT want a relationship with him; I want a relationship where we can both be honest with each other and where I don't have to lie whenever I talk to him. That I wanted a real relationship, and that no relationship was preferable to the fake impersonal relationship we have now. And that I was willing to try and have a relationship with him if I Could be more open.
This is what he responded:
Hi Arielle,
We received your last e-mail and I read it carefully. It made me think. I always try to figure out what would be a "win-win" solution to various problems. What would make both parties ultimately happy? So, while I was davening in shul this morning (sometimes I get my best ideas while davening) I thought of the following possible solution for our mutual dilemma.
A win-win situation here would be one where you & Brett would be accepted and included in our family. Where there would no longer have to be a strain in our relationship. Where any future children you seem to be planing would be welcome and included. For us, a win would be one where you married someone within our faith. While it would be ideal for you to marry a frum man and be observant yourself, we know that that you are not at that point in life now. Yet, we are sure you understand that we take Judaism very seriously and follow God's word literally.
So here is my suggestion. Although I haven't had the pleasure of being introduced to Brett yet, from what you have told me, the two of you are very fond of each other and want to marry and start a family. I am sure he loves you very much and would not want to put you in a position where you have to choose between him and the whole rest of your family. So since he loves you and since you tell me that you are both agnostic and being labeled one religion or another does not mean all that much anyway, why doesn't he convert to Judaism?
Sure, I understand that a conversion for him would not be 100% sincere at this time. But, it would allow for the two of you to be included in our extended orthodox families, it would be beneficial for the religious identity of any future children and, who knows, maybe he will actually come to enjoy and appreciate our traditions and customs over time. It would also be beneficial for your siblings since it would set a good example for Dovid and help Etan's chances of securing a future shidduch as well.
I would like you two to think about this for a while. If you guys would like further direction and counseling in this area I would suggest that you contact my Rabbi and friend, Rabbi XX, who is the Chabad Rabbi in XX. (About 30 years old, used to counsel college students and is very personable.) He does not know that I am suggesting this to you, but I have talked with him in the past about your situation and I am certain he would be amenable to helping out in any way he could. I believe this would involve some education/training on Brett's part to know what he is getting into, a private religious ceremony and dip in the mikvah pool and, when the time comes, a religious wedding ceremony (Chuppah) in addition to whatever else you both have planned, marriage-wise.
Rabbi XX can be reached at *Email and phone number removed*
I think this could be the win-win situation we all could live with. It's not a perfect solution but a workable option.
Best wishes,
Love,
Abba
Ok so I contacted him saying I wanted a more honest and open relationship with him, and he responded by saying he wants me to carry out some elaborate hoax where my fiance goes through a jewish conversion (and the guy he referred us to is orthodox, so this would be an intense one year process) so that he can save face in front of his friends and family?
There is so many things wrong with this email I don't even know where to start. For one, we're not agnostics, we're atheists, and joining any organized religion WOULD be a big deal. I don't want my kids to be raised in this religion. For another, who is my dad to say who is accepted into my extended orthodox family? I'm already friends with a lot of them on facebook, and probably have more contact with them then he does. For a third, I hate his condescending tone, like "I haven't had the pleasure of being introduced to him"...um yeah, I offered to set up a meeting of them like 20 times at least, and my dad refused every time. Fourth, this is the last and final way my dad is trying to control me- by saying he would accept us into their family if only my fiance goes through a conversion. But so what, Brett converts, and suddenly everything is magically fine? Um, maybe in my dad's eyes, but not to me! Fifth, this is total hypocracy..jewish law says you can't convert for a spouse or to make other people happy, but my dad apparently doesn't care about that, all he cares about is what other people think, and how he can try to get his hooks into us to slowly turn me (and my future children) back into a religious person.
I am so filled with rage now, and at this point the only thing I can think to respond is that the answer to the conversion question is NO, and if my dad thinks that I am so desperate for my family to love me that I would completely compromise everything I believe (and don't believe) in, then he is grossly mistaken, and that the real situation here is that if HE ever wants any relationship with me and my kids, then the only acceptable compromise to me is that he will welcome me and Brett into their home, and we will promise not to flagrantly ignore their religious rules while we are in their house. And if not, we will go our separate ways, and our kids will only ever know one set of grandparents.