i hate the violence in the middle east

[sarah b.]

I feel so powerless. If I believed praying for peace could effect positive change there, I'd pray. I want to cry every time I think about it. Sometimes I do. This sucks. :(

[Jesse D]

Yeah, it's pretty fucking awful.... and it's only gonna get way worse.

[Mr_Pat]

Yeah, what happened over there I haven’t seen the news. But what, the Palestinians and Israel were in a 6 month cease-fire, and the Palestinians did a rockets attack on Israel and then Israel attacked back?

[mario]

The Israelis and Palestinians will always be at war until one or both are obliterated. They are two societies with perceived divine right, and each society's ultimate goal is a Theocratic world government under the law of their respective holy book, with their nation leading the world.

There will never be peace until either:

One of these nations takes over the world
Both of these nations are destroyed
Both of these nations give up their foolish notions of ruling the world and imposing their religious will upon the rest of the world.

I don't see the last one ever happening. So get used to perpetual war. Heck, it's been going on for thousands of years, long before each of their "holy books" were written, why expect change now?

[In A Silent Way]

http://inlinethumb23.webshots.com/43926/2298296970103726530S425x425Q85.jpg

[Mr_Pat]

http://inlinethumb23.webshots.com/43926/2298296970103726530S425x425Q85.jpg


Must be from the OJ trial? :lol:

[PieDoh]

It would be helpful if the media didn't give so much coverage to this conflict. OTOH, I was mildly piqued that today they (PBS) compared Gaza to Washington D.C....as "twice as big".....It's a cinch the world will not decide the outcome of the conflict there...Hammas is the villian there, and I can't find fault in the Israeli defensive on their continued assault on the tenuous peace.

[mario]

Honestly, I see no villain unless both parties are villains.

As I mentioned above, the goal of both societies is to create a global theocratic rule under their holy book, with their nation as the world capitol. Israel is no less guilty in this than Palestine.

Do a quick Google search on Messiach and you will see what I mean.

Not that Christians are any better, we all know the handiwork of the Holy Roman Empire. It all goes back to divine right. These wars will never end. They are ingrained into the core of each faith's belief. There is no stopping it. The best we can hope is to contain it in the region, and not let it spill over into the rest of the world.

Of course we are doing a great job of that. :coffee:

[teabag]

this kind of behavior is happening everywhere in one shape or form
just this conflict is being exploited by the news
did the news report all the little cowardish attacks against israel during this cease fire no

they only report this news to our public when israel defends herself why is that

[mario]

Actually the news (at least the news I listen to) reports actions from both sides. There are other news sources than Fox News and CNN.

[sarah b.]

Both of these nations give up their foolish notions of ruling the world and imposing their religious will upon the rest of the world.
Israelis don't want to rule the world. Israel is a secular state with a religious government that can't impose its religious will on its own citizens (the Jewish ones), never mind anyone else in the world. Jews don't want to rule the world, either. You've got to be kidding, Mario. I love you, but you are terribly misinformed, especially if you're believing stuff yielded based on incorrectly spelled search strings (per below).

Do a quick Google search on Messiach and you will see what I mean.
Um, that's not how Jews spell it, and what does a hoped-for-by-many (who are not me, 'cause I believe that the Judaic concept of the coming of the messiah [or moshiach, as you'd find it written on Jewish websites] or any Judaic concept of messianic redemption is related to finding one's divine spark within, and redeeming from within, and living by example to become a light unto the world wherever you are, all of which has nothing to do with living in Israel, ever) concept of redemption that has nothing to do with world domination have to do with world domination?

Just because some people believe that one day, the messiah will come, and then all Jews will live together in harmony in Israel (do you not realize that you're more likely to wake up with a vagina instead of a penis one morning?!) doesn't mean that's the way it would really happen, if it were to happen.

The way it was taught in the Jewish parochial school I attended included fantastical tales of buildings full of Jews all over the world coming loose from their moorings and landing in Israel. Yeah, man, what were they smoking? It's a spiritual concept; for some, it's an ideal; but it's something that would require special effects that even Lucasfilm would have a hard time pulling off to actually happen, and no Israeli government, no U.S. government, no any government will pull that off.

And the ultra-orthodox dudes in black pants and white shirts who believe stuff like that, they don't even usually serve in the Israeli military. They do a couple years of community service, rather than carry guns. So all the kids serving on the front lines of the IDF, they don't have any sort of spiritual agenda or vision guiding them. They're secular folks who aren't usually fans of the ultra-orthodox members of the Israeli government who just don't want to get themselves killed.

Neither Jews nor Jewish Israelis are able to agree with each other about their own religious paradigms long enough to have a collective religious will or agenda to wish to impose on each other, never mind anyone who doesn't share the many types of Judaic belief that exist in this world. As for Zionism, it's pretty focused on a little patch of mostly desert, not on world domination.

As far as a ground war goes, I don't think the Israeli govt. wants to send troops to fight on land that a two-state "solution" won't allow them to "win" back. There are no winners in war. I hope another cease fire is reached and adhered to soon. I don't see much point to keeping on putting band-aids on a sore that keeps reopening, but it beats just nuking the region.

As for the "death to all juice" pic, that shit's scary. I'm not a fan of blanket hatred. I don't hate all members of any group. Hatred just hurts me, in the long run. I don't like being so angry that I'm tempted to hate. It's detrimental to my health on so many levels.

[mario]

Sarah,

First off let me state that I love you too.

As far as my spelling of Messiach, there are several sites that have it spelled that way, but I will take your word on this, and as such, here is an excerpt from Judiasm 101:

" What Will the Moshiach Do?

Before the time of the moshiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

The moshiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

So basically what I have stated above, creating a theocratic government, based in the Torah, with Israel as the leader of the world, and the laws of the Torah being the laws of the "land" aka Earth.

Now, I do not claim in the LEAST that all Jewish people, or even all Israeli Jews believe this. As you know I have a partially Jewish heritage myself, and none in my family wishes this, some not even aware of it until I brought it up. Many like you believed the Moshiach would bring the people of Israel home, and restore peace in the region, nothing more.

I also agree that the chances of Messianic prophecy being fulfilled are slim to none. However, there are people within the Jewish community, and within the Israeli government that do believe in this Messianic prophecy and want to see it come to pass.

I have spoken to very outspoken Zionists, who have stated the only way for peace is total control of the region, rule over the other nations. Very few are willing to go so far as to say the world, but most agree that the goal should be (in line with Messianic prophecy) to take over the Middle East under the rule of the Torah.

Please know Sarah, this is not an attack on Judiasm. The Islamic faith has similar beliefs when it comes to divine right. Even the Christians have this Divine Right ingrained into their belief system, and on several occasions in history entered "holy wars" to exercise that perceived divine right.

The point of bringing any of this up is to state that there can never be peace until the belief of divine right is eliminated in ALL faiths/cultures.

I think Bob Marley put it best...

"Until the philosophy which hold one race superior
And another
Inferior
Is finally
And permanently
Discredited
And abandoned -
Everywhere is war -
Me say war."

[mario]

Ok, it's come to my attention that some may think that from my above statements that I think Israel is not justified in it's current actions. That could not be further from the truth.

If Mexico were to start shooting rockets into San Diego, you bet I would be calling for a military response.

I am rather speaking on a grander scale. Extremists in all cultures are a real problem in creating a world peace. Palestinian extremists started this conflict with Israel, and Israel is responding in the only way it can.

However, there are extremists in every culture. There are a number of outspoken generals in India who have said that a nuclear war with Pakistan should happen, since even though there would be approximately 50 million killed on each side, this would be a small number of people for India (who boasts over 1 billion people) compared to Pakistan's paultry 100 million.

It is these attitudes, these held beliefs, that are in ALL cultures that are a problem.

Sure, the extremists in Islamic culture are far more vast than in many other cultures. However, as long as that presence is in ANY culture, there is the potential for it to grow.

Have we learned nothing from history? Look at all that Hitler accomplished with his extremism? All it took was the right political/economic climate, and he was able to sway an entire people to justify extermination of other cultures.

The point I have tried to make in this entire discussion is that the real enemy here is extremist views, and the belief in divine right. As long as those views are present in ANY culture, there is the potential for destruction, war, and genocide. The elimination of this element in every culture is the only true path to peace.

[syd_25]

Not that Christians are any better, we all know the handiwork of the Holy Roman Empire.

I just gotta throw this out there... The Roman empire was quite destructive well before it became the Holy Roman Empire.... Not that changing to christianity slowed them down in the least. :lol:

[mario]

Exactly, which goes to my entire point that this is a human problem, rather than a problem with any particular society, nation, or religious group.

[Joker]

Palestinian extremists started this conflict with Israel, and Israel is responding in the only way it can.



One could argue this was started when the Palestinians were driven from their homeland and that what has followed is a resistance to that takeover and a fight to take back what is theirs.

[syd_25]

One could argue this was started when the Palestinians were driven from their homeland and that what has followed is a resistance to that takeover and a fight to take back what is theirs.


Go back far enough and just about everyone was driven out of somewhere. How far back is history are people allowed to go to back their "My Land" claim? (no side taken here, just a question.)

[mario]

Exactly Syd... heck we go back far enough, and all of humanity has to move to a five mile stretch of Africa, and give the rest of the planet back to the indigenous wildlife.

Humanity needs to learn how to coexist peacefully.

[Joker]

Go back far enough and just about everyone was driven out of somewhere. How far back is history are people allowed to go to back their "My Land" claim? (no side taken here, just a question.)

I couldn't say how far back.I'd imagine a few generations at least.

I'd have to guess some of those driven out in this case are still alive right now and not allowed to return.

Hell, Israeli settlers are STILL stealing land


Watchdog: Israeli settlement construction nearly doubles over 2007

Construction in Isolated settlement Aims at a Teritorial Connection
A. Main Findings:
Ÿ Over 1000 new buildings are being constructed in the settlements, in which approximately 2,600 housing units, according to Peace Now’s calculations (aerial photographs and field visits). Approximately 55% of the new structures are located to the east of the constructed Separation Barrier.
Ÿ According to figures from the Central Bureau of Statistics, construction in the settlements has increased by a factor of 1.8 by comparison to the same period last year. The Housing Ministry initiated 433 new housing units during the period of January – May 2008, compared to just 240 housing units during the period January – May 2007 (construction initiated by the Housing Ministry accounted for 64% of all the construction counted in the West Bank by the CBS in recent months).
Ÿ 125 new structures have been added to the outposts, including 30 permanent houses.
Ÿ The number of tenders for construction in the settlements has increased by 550%. 417 housing units, compared to just 65 in 2007.
Ÿ The number of tenders in East Jerusalem has increased by a factor of 38 (1,761 housing units compared to 46 in 2007).
B. Construction in the Settlements: Eliminating the Green Line
In recent years the trend has accelerated to eliminate the Green Line through intensive construction intended to create a territorial connection between the blocks of settlements and isolated settlements in the heart of the West Bank.





http://www.peacenow.org.il/site/en/peace.asp?pi=61&docid=3380

[mule64]

the groundwar has started, does not look good for anyone involved.

[Joker]

More innocents will die on both sides, more hate will be nurtured and nothing will change.:crying:

[cybertentbob]

despite what you say about Israel still building settlements..blah blah blah..that is not the issue.
The issue is a simple one: The Palestinians DO NOT WANT peace.
It's the bottom line of the equasion.period.
EVERY attempt by Israel and the U.S. has been spurned....
Even when given control of Gaza ,They proved themselves uncapable of running anything! And Given the "freedom" to vote they installed Hamas....Israel has a perfect right to bomb these morons back to the stone age where they seem to prefer to live...Harsh you say????
explain to me please what the palestinians have done to make peace with Israel??not one damn thing!
next time someone fires rockets at YOUR kids what would YOU do?
:joker:

[cybertentbob]

One could argue this was started when the Palestinians were driven from their homeland and that what has followed is a resistance to that takeover and a fight to take back what is theirs.
There is no palestinian "homeland" the "palestinians" were nomads who basically were part of Jordan This "homeland" idea was perpetuated by arabs who still to this day dont give a crap about finding a "solution to the palestinian problem" their solution is to destroy Israel.

[Joker]

This type of hate

There is no palestinian "homeland" the "palestinians" were nomads who basically were part of Jordan This "homeland" idea was perpetuated by arabs who still to this day dont give a crap about finding a "solution to the palestinian problem" their solution is to destroy Israel.despite what you say about Israel still building settlements..blah blah blah..that is not the issue.
The issue is a simple one: The Palestinians DO NOT WANT peace.
It's the bottom line of the equasion.period.
EVERY attempt by Israel and the U.S. has been spurned....
Even when given control of Gaza ,They proved themselves uncapable of running anything! And Given the "freedom" to vote they installed Hamas....Israel has a perfect right to bomb these morons back to the stone age where they seem to prefer to live...Harsh you say????
explain to me please what the palestinians have done to make peace with Israel??not one damn thing!
next time someone fires rockets at YOUR kids what would YOU do?

[cybertentbob]

this is not hate. where do you see hate in that post?
What hate is wanting to destroy (democracy) ie:israel. And by extension us.

How about the arab states? they have billions of dollars ..Do they do ANYTHING to help their Palistinian brothers?...NOPE they let them sit in detention camps for generations..supply them with weapons and use them as an excuse to let their dictatorships continue.
Hamas is no different from Bin Laden and his ilk.

Perhaps all these liberals defending hamas(the elected leadership)
should be for the taliban too!

[DifferentDrummer]

israel is continuously stealing more & more palestinian land (see: seam zone), they block humanitarian aid & they treat them like animals.

also, the 'rockets' that are fired from gaza are like glamorized fireworks compared to the missiles that israel fires back.


also, if you seriously think that they 'want to destroy democracy', then you are 100% ignorant of the situation over there. period.


personally, i don't support either side. but it's disgusting how americans, and especially american jews, simply see israel as 'good' and all arabs as 'evil'.

[Jesse D]

That was pretty nice of the Israeli army to bomb the U.N. elementary school....

[Joker]

also, the 'rockets' that are fired from gaza are like glamorized fireworks compared to the missiles that israel fires back.


Those "glamorized fireworks" are still rockets that can, and are intended to, kill people and must be stopped.

[cybertentbob]

israel is continuously stealing more & more palestinian land (see: seam zone), they block humanitarian aid & they treat them like animals.

also, the 'rockets' that are fired from gaza are like glamorized fireworks compared to the missiles that israel fires back.


also, if you seriously think that they 'want to destroy democracy', then you are 100% ignorant of the situation over there. period.


personally, i don't support either side. but it's disgusting how americans, and especially american jews, simply see israel as 'good' and all arabs as 'evil'.Drummer perhaps when those nice palestinians start blowing themselves up here to prove their "point"
you will understand. I understand 100% the tactics the Palestinians use are simply the tools of terror. The palestinians voted for Hamas..knowing what they are (a terrorist organization)..Perhaps you would like to live with the taliban..who are just as you say aserting their "rights"?

[Joker]

less than 45% of those Palestinians voted for the terrorist group Hamas.

Open your eyes and you just might be able to see the difference.

Many of them support Hamas's war on Israel as much as you support the US war in Iraq.

[mule64]

Drummer perhaps when those nice palestinians start blowing themselves up here to prove their "point"
you will understand. I understand 100% the tactics the Palestinians use are simply the tools of terror. The palestinians voted for Hamas..knowing what they are (a terrorist organization)..Perhaps you would like to live with the taliban..who are just as you say aserting their "rights"?

:clapping: wow Bob, nice answer. Maybe you aren't as lost as I thought:lol:

[DifferentDrummer]

you mean the taliban that the CIA created?

and i never mentioned that ANYONE had a 'right' to blow people up.

i simply don't take sides. hamas & israel both = terrorists.

[Joker]

:clapping: wow Bob, nice answer. Maybe you aren't as lost as I thought:lol::rotf:

[sarah b.]

I hear you, Mario.
My ex was nice enough to give me a ride to my doctor's office last Saturday, and I let him sit in on the appointment (he's trying to start his own medical practice, and I figured observing another, more seasoned, pro might do him some good). He asked my doctor if people who believe in religion are crazy. (my doc's a neuro-psychiatrist, I've been seeing him since I was diagnosed with epilepsy in '89.)

He replied, "Religious beliefs are irrational thoughts. One thing I've realized is I have irrational thoughts, in general. And I'm okay with that." I don't know if my doctor goes to church, or anything, but he celebrates Christmas with his family.

As far as taking over a region, I don't think it will ever happen by one group or another in my lifetime, and while I'm sure some outspoken Zionists feel the way you said they do, I still don't think that Jews or Israelis will agree on enough long enough to do that without (biblical lore's) Elijah himself riding into Jerusalem on a donkey and blowing a shofar (ram's horn) to give off a universal bat signal (so to speak) to send buildings full of magically gathered Jews to come loose from their moorings and enter the dawning of the age of Aquarius of peace in the Middle East. I love being Jewish, but that is downright fantastical stuff, there.

As far as military responses go, if Bridgeport was hitting Port Jefferson and surrounding towns (or Cape Cod firing on Boston, Hartford on New Haven, etc.) regularly with rockets, I could understand Long Island not responding happily to it. As far as fair, war's not fair, nor is it about proportionate response. That's why it's called war. That's why it sucks. That swings both ways and is no fun for anyone.

I don't think war or violence is a lasting answer toward peace for anyone. I can only hope that people stay safe and aren't killed, in the meantime. I have a stepcousin who graduated high school the same year as me, is married with four kids and lives in Israel. Her kids are having drills at school and stuff. That's not as bad as what some other people are dealing with, for sure, but it's not easy. I may add some excerpts from her blog, such as these:

1/4/09
" That is because at 39.6 kilometers from the Gaza Strip, we are within the 40 kilometer expected range of their rockets. That means my children now understand why we have a concrete and metal fortified safe room in our house. That means my 6 year old daughter knows that if she is outside and hears a warning siren and is not near a building, she should lie down flat on her stomach and cover her head for five minutes. That means that we are all on edge, listening for every stray sound, and wondering when the rockets will fall.
The Home Front Security department has declared that there should be no school for the children in YB. There have been no sirens here (thank God), but the kids have been home since Thursday, walking on eggshells. Today we took them to Raanana, at the request of my oldest (age 11) who asked if we could go somewhere "out of range".

1/6/09
This is why I love this country
This morning we actually heard a siren. [husband] had left the house with [son 1] to drop him off at gan (kindergarten) on the way to work, and they both turned right around to come inside. [daughter] was already in the mamad (i don't know what that means, I'm guessing safe room playing computer, [son 2] ran in on his own, and [son 3] was in bed without his hearing aids on, so I just grabbed him and went into the mamad myself. We sat for 5 minutes, and then went back to doing regular things. [daughter] didn't go into hystrical crying like she did in school, but she was shaking. She smiled easily, though, and was able to do deep yoga breathing with me. The boys were a little freaked out, but we didn't hear any explosions. Afterwards, [son 2] said he was actually less scared since we actually did something, and I felt the same way. I was totally calm in the room. If we heard explosions, I'm sure we would have been more shaken, but all in all, we were okay. The rocket landed in Gedera, about an 8 minute drive from here. I drove on the main road around Gedera later this afternoon on my way to Rechovot, and did not see where the rocket had fallen.

But this is why I love my country: At some point on the way to or from Rechovot (I don't exactly remember), I had the radio on. They were giving out the names and phone numbers of poeple in various parts of Israel who would like to host religious families from Ashkelon and the south for Shabbat. (the sabbath*) My great-grandfather used to say that a family is like a hand - if one finger hurts, the whole hand feels the pain. That's what we are here in Israel - one big family.
The kids:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_gITd0uNFdA0/SVfTCB6OHyI/AAAAAAAADMI/AVJsIaHASXI/s800/IMGP2058.JPG

*and this is why the messianic age with Elijah and flying buildings won't happen (never mind that it is physically unlikely due to gravity and well-constructed buildings), because the religious families aren't inviting the secular families over to have a safe place for the Sabbath, too. Until people start thinking on a more universal peace level, whether that universe is all Muslims or all Jews, Druze, Christians, et al, or whether it includes all people of all groups, there won't be peace on a wide scale for everyone anywhere.

[DifferentDrummer]

blowing a shofar

http://www.jewcy.com/files/Rosh.gif

[cybertentbob]

:clapping: wow Bob, nice answer. Maybe you aren't as lost as I thought:lol:you are one strange dude..lol
thank goodness we just knock heads for fun!:clapping:

[Deadshow Dan]

Video that Israel Defense Force says is mortar fire coming from the UN school

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Pages/MediaPlayer.aspx?MediaUrl=http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ClipMediaID=1401718!!!!ak=null&LANGUAGE_NAME=En (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Pages/MediaPlayer.aspx?MediaUrl=http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ClipMediaID=1401718%21%21%21%21ak=null&LANGUAGE_NAME=En)

[Deadshow Dan]

Yeah, what happened over there I haven’t seen the news. But what, the Palestinians and Israel were in a 6 month cease-fire, and the Palestinians did a rockets attack on Israel and then Israel attacked back?
During that cease fire, there were rocket attacks on Israel pretty much every day. When the cease fire expired the rocket attacks escalated.

[Deadshow Dan]

also, the 'rockets' that are fired from gaza are like glamorized fireworks compared to the missiles that israel fires back.

They are not glamorized fireworks, they are rockets that have killed and demolished homes, kindergartens, etc.

It is quite true that Israeli firepower is more sophisticated and much more powerful. The Israeli missiles are far more likely to hit their target while the Hamas rockets are just aimed at civilian population, hoping it will hit something.

[Deadshow Dan]

mario,

You are completely misinformed in this regard. This is a complete oversimplification of both sides. It's EXACTLY like saying Americans will always be at war until they take over everything or are obliterated and that America's ultimate goal is a theocratic goal under Chrisitan control with America leading the world.

There are certainly elements of both sides that believe they have a divine right , but they are minorities on both sides.

The Israelis and Palestinians will always be at war until one or both are obliterated. They are two societies with perceived divine right, and each society's ultimate goal is a Theocratic world government under the law of their respective holy book, with their nation leading the world.

There will never be peace until either:

One of these nations takes over the world
Both of these nations are destroyed
Both of these nations give up their foolish notions of ruling the world and imposing their religious will upon the rest of the world.

I don't see the last one ever happening. So get used to perpetual war. Heck, it's been going on for thousands of years, long before each of their "holy books" were written, why expect change now?

[Deadshow Dan]

Many of them support Hamas's war on Israel as much as you support the US war in Iraq.
This is correct.

It's suicide to show opposition to Hamas in the Gaza strip.

[mule64]

you are one strange dude..lol
thank goodness we just knock heads for fun!:clapping:

:clapping:

[Arglebargle]

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/12/israel_and_gaza.html

Truly horrible.

[sarah b.]

Awful shit, man.
-----------------
My cousin and family had a drill. Mamad means safe room. The family sang together, and it was really moving for her and them. They're doing okay, for the most part. The girl seems to be the most rattled, thus far. Contemplating making a separate thread for blog excerpts.

[Uncle Coulro]

it's been going on for thousands of years, long before each of their "holy books" were written, why expect change now?
Everything else you wrote is, at least, debatable, with the exception of this. There was peace between Muslims and Jews, in the region, until the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire - roughly 120 years ago. The power vacuum resulting from that was seductive to the Great Powers of the world, especially Britain. It was their machinations, especially, the artificial creation of "nations" in the region, which led to the regional violence of the last century. It's never been about religion. It's always been about land, natural resources, and logistical control.

[sarah b.]

This thread has gone pretty quiet, so I'm going to just continue w/excerpts from my (step)cousin's blog, here. all typos are left in. names are now initials, IDed on first mention. I left off a paragraph on the end with info on where to send money to help send care packages to Israeli troops. If anyone wants info on that, feel free to PM me for info or do a web search.

Monday, January 12, 2009
An Actual Siren

It's taken me a few days, but I'm now ready to write about it. On the kids' first day back at school (Sunday) R [her husband] dropped them off on his way to work. They (except for P [the youngest boy]) usually ride their bikes, but L (daughter) was a bit anxious. Plus, they were running late because they weren't used to getting up and out so early. The boys went to a school in Jerusalem where the 11th graders there ran programs for them. At 10:00, L calls me - she has a stomach ache, can I come get her. So, I walk over to school.

When I get there, I happen to see the school counselor who had talked with her about her fears, and she suggested it might be nerves. That made a lot of sense to me, given that there had already been a drill in school that morning. As I walked to L's classroom, there was another drill. The Home Front Command had placed about 15 or 20 soldiers in school whose sole purpose was to get the kids in the saferooms fast. They were milling around the common areas to help individual students on the way from one class to the other or to the office.

I joined the students in the saferoom, and was able to convince L to stay. They were getting let out early (starting at 12:50, they let the kids out gradually so they weren't outside at the same time), and it would be less scary to stay in school, because she would be occupied. L made me promise to be there early to pick her up so she wouldn't have to wait. No problem. At 12:30 I left the house to walk to school.

I called R on the way to see how his day is going, as I often do when I'm walking around YB [the town in which they live]. As we're on the phone, I hear a siren. A real one. The area I was in was not the new area, where all the houses have saferooms. It was the old area, where they don't. I ran to the nearest house and banged on the door anyway, figuring I'd rather be in a group now for support.

There was not answer, so I lay down on their front porch and covered my head with my hands, as we had been instructed to do. When the siren was over, I hear two distant "boom"s. I had just read that morning that all rockets "boom" twice - once upon impact and once upon explosion. R stayed with me on the phone the entire time, and I began reciting chapter 121 of Psalms, as I mentioned in the previous post. After a few minutes, I heard a car go by, so I got up.

On my way to school I saw people coming out of buildings to close car doors they had left open and pick up bags they had dropped running to a shelter. At school, I saw the principal, who was smiling - they had gotten everyone in saferooms in plenty of time. The rocket, I heard, had landed in BT, near KM, about a 10 minute drive away. L was shaken, but fine - no tears, and a lot of targeted questions.

In Sderot and Ashkelon, they do this several times a day, and the "booms" are much closer.

This morning, when I went to put P's lunch in his backpack, I saw a note. His school was asking for donations of snacks and instant soups to send to the soldiers in Gaza. I immediately put a bag of pretzels and a soup in his bag (of course he wanted to eat the pretzels, but I promised him some later). When we got to school, P proudly presented the food to his teacher, who was impressed with our alacrity. I told her that I hope it will be over soon, so I wanted to make sure to send stuff before it was over.

[cybertentbob]

I know everyone gets angry with me for posting op eds but I think it's important to understand that the People who constantly critisize Israel's defending itself (Americans) Always seem to deny the obvious..That is Hamas and Fatah and the rest are NOT nice people interested in peace and security and a decent life for their people...They are the same ilk of terrorists who hate the United States and if not attacking Israel would be attacking us.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Op-Ed Contributor
Why Israel Can’t Make Peace With Hamas


IN the summer of 2006, at a moment when Hezbollah rockets were falling virtually without pause on northern Israel, Nizar Rayyan, husband of four, father of 12, scholar of Islam and unblushing executioner, confessed to me one of his frustrations.

We were meeting in a concrete mosque in the Jabalya refugee camp in northern Gaza. Mr. Rayyan, who was a member of the Hamas ruling elite, and an important recruiter of suicide bombers until Israel killed him two weeks ago (along with several of his wives and children), arrived late to our meeting from parts unknown.

He was watchful for assassins even then, and when I asked him to describe his typical day, he suggested that I might be a spy for Fatah. Not the Mossad, mind you, not the C.I.A., but Fatah.

What a phantasmagorically strange conflict the Arab-Israeli war had become! Here was a Saudi-educated, anti-Shiite (but nevertheless Iranian-backed) Hamas theologian accusing a one-time Israeli Army prison official-turned-reporter of spying for Yasir Arafat’s Fatah, an organization that had once been the foremost innovator of anti-Israeli terrorism but was now, in Mr. Rayyan’s view, indefensibly, unforgivably moderate.

In the Palestinian civil war, Fatah, which today controls much of the West Bank and is engaged in intermittent negotiations with Israel, had become Mr. Rayyan’s direst enemy, a party of apostates and quislings. “First we must deal with the Muslims who speak of a peace process and then we will deal with you,” he declared.

But we spoke that day mainly about the hadith, the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, that specifically concerned Jews and their diverse and apparently limitless character failings. This sort of conversation, while illuminating, can become wearying over time, at least for the Jewish participant, and so I was happy to learn that Mr. Rayyan had his own sore points.

“Hezbollah is doing very well against Israel, don’t you think?” I asked. His face darkened, suggesting that he understood the implication of my question. At the time, Hamas, too, was firing rockets into Israel, though irregularly and without much effect.

“We support our brothers in the resistance,” he said. But then he added, “I think each situation is different.”

How so?

“They have advantages that we in Gaza don’t have,” he said. “They have excellent weapons. Hezbollah moves freely in Lebanon. We are trapped in the Israeli cage. So I don’t like to hear the sentence, ‘Hezbollah is the leader of the resistance.’ It’s a very annoying sentence. They are heroes to us. But we are the ones fighting in Palestine.”

“And they’re Shia,” I said. Mr. Rayyan, who was educated by Wahhabi clerics in Saudi Arabia, was known in Gaza as a firm defender of Sunni theology and privilege, and sometimes lectured at the Islamic University of Gaza on the danger of Shiite “infiltration.”

“Yes! There are many different secret agendas,” he said. “We have to be aware of this.”

Hamas men across Gaza were of two minds on the subject of Hezbollah: One night, I met the members of a Hamas rocket team in the town of Beit Hanoun, on Gaza’s northern border with Israel. The group’s leader, who went by the name of Abu Obeidah, said that he, too, was frustrated by Hezbollah’s success against Israel; he even asked if Hamas’s rocket attacks that summer were featured on television in America, and seemed to deflate physically when I told him no.

“Everyone, all the media, says that Hezbollah is wonderful,” he complained. “We stand with our brothers of Hezbollah, of course, but, really, look at the advantages they have. They get all the rockets they will ever need from Iran.”

Hamas is not a monolith, and opinions inside the group differ about many things, including engagement with the Shiites of Hezbollah and Iran. The former Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi told me shortly before he was assassinated by Israel in 2004 that it would be “uncharitable” to find fault with Iran.

“What do the Arab states do for us?” he asked. “Iran is steadfast against the Jews.”

Today, there is no doubt that Rantisi’s view holds sway inside the organization, and many in Hamas wish for even closer ties with Tehran, particularly over the past month as they have absorbed a battering from Israel. Even those who believe that Iran is secretly trying to bring Sunni Palestinians to Shiism acknowledge anti-Israel Shiites as ideals of resistance.
Skip to next paragraph
The Meaning of Gaza



As the Gaza war moves to a cease-fire, a crucial question will inevitably arise, as it has before: Should Israel (and by extension, the United States) try to engage Hamas in a substantive and sustained manner?

It is a fair question, one worth debating, but it is unmoored from certain political and theological realities. One irresistible reality grows from Hamas’s complicated, competitive relationship with Hezbollah. For Hamas, Hezbollah is not only a source of weapons and instruction, it is a mentor and role model.

Hamas’s desire to best Hezbollah’s achievements is natural, of course, but, more to the point, it is radicalizing. One of the reasons, among many, that Hamas felt compelled to break its cease-fire with Israel last month was to prove its potency to Muslims impressed with Hezbollah.

Another reality worth considering concerns theology. Hamas and Hezbollah emerged from very different streams of Islam: Hamas is the Palestinian branch of the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood; Hezbollah is an outright Iranian proxy that takes its inspiration from the radical Shiite politics of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. But the groups share a common belief that Jews are a cosmological evil, enemies of Islam since Muhammad sought refuge in Medina.

Periodically, advocates of negotiation suggest that the hostility toward Jews expressed by Hamas is somehow mutable. But in years of listening, I haven’t heard much to suggest that its anti-Semitism is insincere. Like Hezbollah, Hamas believes that God is opposed to a Jewish state in Palestine. Both groups are rhetorically pitiless, though, again, Hamas sometimes appears to follow the lead of Hezbollah.

I once asked Abdel Aziz Rantisi where he learned what he called “the truth” of the Holocaust — that it didn’t happen — and he referred me to books published by Hezbollah. Hamas and Hezbollah also share the view that the solution for Palestine lies in Europe. A spokesman for Hezbollah, Hassan Izzedine, once told me that the Jews who survive the Muslim “liberation” of Palestine “can go back to Germany, or wherever they came from.” He went on to argue that the Jews are a “curse to anyone who lives near them.”

Nizar Rayyan expressed much the same sentiment the night we spoke in 2006. We had been discussing a passage of the Koran that suggests that God turns a group of impious Jews into apes and pigs. The Hezbollah leader, Hassan Nasrallah, among others, has deployed this passage in his speeches. Once, at a rally in Beirut, he said: “We shout in the face of the killers of prophets and the descendants of the apes and pigs: We hope we will not see you next year. The shout remains, ‘Death to Israel!’”

Mr. Rayyan said that, technically, Mr. Nasrallah was mistaken. “Allah changed disobedient Jews into apes and pigs, it is true, but he specifically said these apes and pigs did not have the ability to reproduce,” Mr. Rayyan said. “So it is not literally true that Jews today are descended from pigs and apes, but it is true that some of the ancestors of Jews were transformed into pigs and apes, and it is true that Allah continually makes the Jews pay for their crimes in many different ways. They are a cursed people.”

I asked him the question I always ask of Hamas leaders: Could you agree to anything more than a tactical cease-fire with Israel? I felt slightly ridiculous asking: A man who believes that God every now and again transforms Jews into pigs and apes might not be the most obvious candidate for peace talks at Camp David. Mr. Rayyan answered the question as I thought he would, saying that a long-term cease-fire would be unnecessary, because it will not take long for the forces of Islam to eradicate Israel.

There is a fixed idea among some Israeli leaders that Hamas can be bombed into moderation. This is a false and dangerous notion. It is true that Hamas can be deterred militarily for a time, but tanks cannot defeat deeply felt belief.

The reverse is also true: Hamas cannot be cajoled into moderation. Neither position credits Hamas with sincerity, or seriousness.

The only small chance for peace today is the same chance that existed before the Gaza invasion: The moderate Arab states, Europe, the United States and, mainly, Israel, must help Hamas’s enemy, Fatah, prepare the West Bank for real freedom, and then hope that the people of Gaza, vast numbers of whom are unsympathetic to Hamas, see the West Bank as an alternative to the squalid vision of Hassan Nasrallah and Nizar Rayyan.




Jeffrey Goldberg, a national correspondent for The Atlantic, is the author of “Prisoners: A Story of Friendship and Terror.”