An Experiment in Provocation

[alsoa]

Stealing Gaza
By BRIAN ENO

It’s a tragedy that the Israelis – a people who must understand better than almost anybody the horrors of oppression – are now acting as oppressors. As the great Jewish writer Primo Levi once remarked “Everybody has their Jews, and for the Israelis it’s the Palestinians”. By creating a middle Eastern version of the Warsaw ghetto they are recapitulating their own history as though they’ve forgotten it. And by trying to paint an equivalence between the Palestinians – with their homemade rockets and stone-throwing teenagers – and themselves – with one of the most sophisticated military machines in the world – they sacrifice all credibility.

The Israelis are a gifted and resourceful people who fully deserve the right to live in peace, but who seem intent on squandering every chance to allow that to happen. It’s difficult to avoid the conclusion that this conflict serves the political and economic purposes of Israel so well that they have every interest in maintaining it. While there is fighting they can continue to build illegal settlements. While there is fighting they continue to receive huge quantities of military aid from the United States. And while there is fighting they can avoid looking candidly at themselves and the ruthlessness into which they are descending.

Gaza is now an experiment in provocation. Stuff one and a half million people into a tiny space, stifle their access to water, electricity, food and medical treatment, destroy their livelihoods, and humiliate them regularly…and, surprise, surprise – they turn hostile. Now why would you want to make that experiment?

Because the hostility you provoke is the whole point. Now ‘under attack’ you can cast yourself as the victim, and call out the helicopter gunships and the F16 attack fighters and the heavy tanks and the guided missiles, and destroy yet more of the pathetic remains of infrastructure that the Palestinian state still has left. And then you can point to it as a hopeless case, unfit to govern itself, a terrorist state, a state with which you couldn’t possibly reach an accommodation.

And then you can carry on with business as usual, quietly stealing their homeland.

[mule64]

what a one sided piece. Where is the mention of Hama? Where is the mention of rockets being fired into Israel by Hamas? Why is Israel always the villain?

[alsoa]

what a one sided piece. Where is the mention of Hama? Where is the mention of rockets being fired into Israel by Hamas? Why is Israel always the villain?

And by trying to paint an equivalence between the Palestinians – with their homemade rockets and stone-throwing teenagers – and themselves – with one of the most sophisticated military machines in the world – they sacrifice all credibility.


It's an Op-Ed piece by the way, Brian Eno is a musician..

[mule64]

I know who Brian Eno is, I just get sick of people blaming Israel, its both side fault. Thanks for the 2nd quote attributed to me, but not made by me. LOL

[DifferentDrummer]

GO ISRAEL!!!!!!!!!!!




http://mm.aftenbladet.no/multimedia/dynamic/00263/gaza-dod_263290b.jpg



quote from the article where the picture came from -

This picture of the dead child in the ruins of her home which until Tuesday was her home is repulsive, and will provoke a lot of readers. It is a conscious provocation - and we have two reasons for it: Israel keep all western journalists away from the war in Gaza. The country's government claim 'the well being of the journalists' as the reason, but this is an obvious lie. In modern wars, the 'strong side' does everything in its power to stop the press from documenting abuse of the civilian population, because this can weaken the support of the war.

BUT THERE ARE cameras in the war zone, and there are local photographers who are willing to go past everything that might stop them to get photos of a war in a tightly populated city out to the outside world. Pictures like this one.

There is no such thing as a 'surgical strike' in one of the most heavily populated areas in the world. This little girl died along with at least 11 other members of the Daya family when their 4-story house was bombed by Israeli planes yesterday morning. This - not the camo-painted israeli soldier, or the covered Hamas warrior, is the true face of the war.

Today we show the picture 'The Others' see, so as to better understand how they feel, Sven Egil Omdal (multimedia and cultural editor) writes.

THE MOST IMPORTANT reason for us to show this face, is that the Arab world sees pictures like these from Gaza every day. Not a single still, but hours and hours of TV-images of hospital floors full of small, dead bodies

Four year olds, two year olds, seven year olds, newly borns - These pictures represent the war in Gaza for millions of muslims - and we wonder why the hatred against Israel and the west grows?

[alsoa]

Thanks for the 2nd quote attributed to me, but not made by me. LOL

Simple mistake, I fixed it.

[sarah b.]

I don't ask my auto mechanic to prescribe my meds, and I don't ask musicians to educate me on the middle east. This is not the answer, either:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477450,00.html

--------
Welcome back, DD. Please post links to articles you cite. Thanks.

[alsoa]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/opinion/08khalidi.html

[syd_25]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/opinion/08khalidi.html



I like that part about the Cease Fire:

"This accord led to a reduction in rockets fired from Gaza from hundreds in May and June to a total of less than 20 in the subsequent four months (according to Israeli government figures). The cease-fire broke down when Israeli forces launched major air and ground attacks in early November; six Hamas operatives were reported killed.
"

I thought a "Cease Fire" means no one fires at the other. So this Cease fire applied just to Israel?

I see faults on both sides.... but thats just me.

[alsoa]

I see faults on both sides.... but thats just me.

I concur. I just think its important to consider the arguments of each side. When you look at the figures, it's a bit jarring. 600 something dead Palestinians vs 10 Israelis(not to be taken as Gospel, I'm can't vouch for the accuracy of those figures). Supposing those figures are even remotely true, is that amount of force necessary? Are the Israelis really the victim?

I'm just posing the question not making a statement.

[syd_25]

Are the Israelis really the victim?

I'm just posing the question not making a statement.

I guess I'm not sure.... I kinda see them both as antagonists and victims. It doesn't sounds like (in my uneducated opinion) that either side is blamess.

[Again and Again]

is that amount of force necessary?

I suppose random rockets fired at innocent civilians would be better?

Maybe Israel should just set up in schools and playgrounds and shoot rockets across the border towards Gazan cities. That's much more proportional of a response.

[alsoa]

I suppose random rockets fired at innocent civilians would be better?

Maybe Israel should just set up in schools and playgrounds and shoot rockets across the border towards Gazan cities. That's much more proportional of a response.

Sure, and why not take out some U.N. Aid Workers while they're at at.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/08/israel.gaza/index.html

[Prometheus]

Can't we all just agree that ALL OF THIS FUCKING BULLSHIT is 100% a result of the common reflexive condition of the human mind to create a supernatural deity to explain the human condition, the universe and reality in general. The God Delusion is entirely the root of all of this unfathomable hate, death and destruction. Never lose sight of that!

[syd_25]

Can't we all just agree that ALL OF THIS FUCKING BULLSHIT is 100% a result of the common reflexive condition of the human mind to create a supernatural deity to explain the human condition, the universe and reality in general. The God Delusion is entirely the root of all of this unfathomable hate, death and destruction. Never lose sight of that!

Religion as a scapgoat?

Sorry, not buying it. There are plenty of people who believe in a "supernatural deity" that do not believe in killing in the name of said deity.

[Prometheus]

The entities involved in this dispute owe the very existence of this situation to dogmatic religious assumptions and claims. They've built this obsession up over time to the point where it defines who, where and why they are. It's not a scapegoat, it's the absolute root and origination of the entire situation in that region.

[Shake Yer Bones]

I can't agree with religion as a scapegoat, either. It's still people killing people and they should be held accountable as people.

I happen to think this specific situation is more about land than it is religion.

[sarah b.]

I don't agree with blaming people being assholes or doing negative things on religion, in general. Most folks realize that religious beliefs are irrational thoughts. People are responsible for their actions, regardless of in whom or what set of beliefs they take them.

I think religion is like a giant log. You can use it to make a canoe, or you can use it to make spears. Or you can use it to make fire. But there's no reason to hold the wood responsible for people who make spears and use them to kill, rather than to roast marshmallows. People make choices. Wood doesn't make choices, even if it is people who make the tree a log from which to fashion things by chopping it down.

[SunshineDrummer]

I think religion is like a giant log. You can use it to make a canoe, or you can use it to make spears. Or you can use it to make fire. But there's no reason to hold the wood responsible for people who make spears and use them to kill, rather than to roast marshmallows. People make choices. Wood doesn't make choices, even if it is people who make the tree a log from which to fashion things by chopping it down.

Wise words, Sarah. :heart:

And I'll take marshmallows, please. :)

[DifferentDrummer]

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

[Again and Again]

In my understanding, nowhere in the Jewish religion does it say Jews should fight for their religion.

(The religion doesn't even suggest preaching or attempting to convert anyone, to my knowledge. That's why you never see Jewish missionaries and never have Jews knocking on your door or handing out literature at airports.)

In my understanding, Israel is not fighting for religion...they are fighting because they are constantly under attack by numerous groups who want the Jews out of the land. (This is a phenomenon/hatred that goes back centuries.)

[Again and Again]

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."


Well said, I agree. Not all religions, though. There must be a few that have a clean record of never starting violence.

[PeaceFrog]

scapegoat - someone who is punished for the errors of others

just thought that needed to be defined.

[Joker]

Lieberman's anti-Arab ideology wins over Israel's teens http://wa-ne1.www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gif

By Yotam Feldman http://wa-ne1.www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gif


The Yisrael Beiteinu youths gather for a final consultation as dozens of elderly party supporters slowly make their way into the white tent where the movement's conference is being held, behind the Plaza Hotel in Upper Nazareth.

The youths, ages 16-18, many of them good friends from school, had stood for a long time before the event began at the intersection near the hotel, waving Israeli flags and shouting "Death to the Arabs" and "No loyalty, no citizenship" at passing cars.
http://wa-ne1.www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gif

In the tent, they deliberate over what to shout when Lieberman enters: Calling out "The next prime minister" may sound a bit presumptuous with regard to the leader of what's likely to be the third-largest party in the next Knesset. But during a week when Yisrael Beiteinu won the highest level of support in mock high-school polls - the sky's the limit.

Not even the investigation of several close Lieberman aides, announced by the state prosecutor that very morning, could dampen their enthusiasm. To the sounds of kitschy Russian music, the party's candidates take their places behind a long table. The young people gather right in front of the stage and lovingly greet the new heroes of the right. Even Lieberman's rather colorless deputy, MK Uzi Landau, evokes strong, passionate cheers. But these pale in comparison to the reaction when the party chairman makes his entrance.

Now the youths are beaming, holding their flags aloft and shouting so loudly it makes them hoarse: "Here comes the next prime minister!" If not in the upcoming election, then maybe in the one after that, when these young people will vote for the first time.

The conference concluded with the singing of the national anthem, which the young attendees sang aggressively in the style of Beitar Jerusalem fans. On the bus back to the center of Upper Nazareth, one of the youths offers this explanation for his excitement about the party:

"This country has needed a dictatorship for a long time already. But I'm not talking about an extreme dictatorship. We need someone who can put things in order. Lieberman is the only one who speaks the truth." Adds Edan Ivanov, an 18 year old who describes himself as being "up on current events":

"We've had enough here with the 'leftist democracy' - and I put that term in quotes, don't get me wrong. People have put the dictator label on Lieberman because of the things he says. But the truth is that in Israel there can't be a full democracy when there are Arabs here who oppose it.

"All Lieberman's really saying is that anyone who isn't prepared to sign an oath of loyalty to the state, because of his personal views, cannot receive equal rights; he can't vote for the executive authority. People here are gradually coming to understand what needs to be done concerning a person who is not loyal."

Continued
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1061910.html

[Don Nucka]

Let's all fight over some fucking rocks and sand because 3 different verions of some old-ass ,probably made-up book claim our side is right! Anyone see how fucking dumb this is yet? No? OK. Kill that guy, he wants his 1/3rd of this putrid, nonfarmable sandbox! No, kill him, he want's his piece of this arid wasteland! No you all die, this is MY shitheap!
God, put them all on a plane to West Texas. They can fight over sand and dust there. Religion is the #1 cause of death in the world.

[syd_25]

Religion is the #1 cause of death in the world.

and here I thought it might be cancer or famine... Silly me. :wink:

[DifferentDrummer]

and here I thought it might be cancer or famine... Silly me. :wink:


it's actually heart disease, which is mainly caused by meat-consumption.

[Don Nucka]

it's actually heart disease, which is mainly caused by meat-consumption.




OK, sorry. I meant to say
Religion is the #1 cause of murder/violent death and war in the world.

[Again and Again]

Jews are not there because it is their "homeland" (which it is). Jews are there because no other country on earth wanted them, so most of the countries agreed to throw them into that useless deserted barren corner of the world. No one else was there.

The arabs did not want jews (just like no one wanted them) so the arabs MADE UP this "palestine" bullshit. It was never a real country or peoples.

Jews built up a fantastic country with bustling Modern cities and top class exports and education. All on land that was useless before, and while they are constantly under attack.

my $0.02

[syd_25]

OK, sorry. I meant to say
Religion is the #1 cause of murder/violent death and war in the world.


Blaming religion is like blaming guns. It all comes down to what the person does with it.

[Joker]

Jews are not there because it is their "homeland" (which it is). Jews are there because no other country on earth wanted them, so most of the countries agreed to throw them into that useless deserted barren corner of the world. No one else was there.

The arabs did not want jews (just like no one wanted them) so the arabs MADE UP this "palestine" bullshit. It was never a real country or peoples.

Jews built up a fantastic country with bustling Modern cities and top class exports and education. All on land that was useless before, and while they are constantly under attack.

my $0.02That's like saying there were never any real Native Americans either.


Palestine


[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Definitions_of_Palestine_and_Pales tinian&action=edit&section=2)] Origin of the term

See also: Palestine – Boundaries and name (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine#Boundaries_and_name) The term Palestine is derived from Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Παλαιστινη/Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language): Palaestina, which refers to the biblical Philistines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines), a people of Aegean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_civilization) origin who settled in the southern coastal plains of Canaan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan), in the 12th century BC, their territory being named Philistia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistia).
After crushing Bar Kochba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kochba)'s revolt in 132-135, the Romans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire) applied the name to the entire region that had formerly included Iudaea Province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iudaea_Province),[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_Palestine_and_Palestinian#cite_note-0) in an attempt to suppress Jewish national feelings.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_Palestine_and_Palestinian#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_Palestine_and_Palestinian#cite_note-2) The Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language) toponym (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toponym) Filasteen (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): فلسطين‎) is also derived from the Latin name.


"The name Palestine, which the Romans had bestowed on the conquered and subjugated land of Judea, had been retained for a time by the Arab conquerors to designate an administrative subdivision of their Syrian province." The name had disappeared from the region prior to the arrival of the Crusaders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusaders). The term was rediscovered in Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe) at the time of the Renaissance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance) and used to refer to what "European Christians ... previously called the Holy Land (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Land)." "The name was not used officially, and had no precise territorial definition until it was adopted by the British to designate the area which they acquired by conquest at the end of World War I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I) and ruled under mandate from the League of Nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations)."[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_Palestine_and_Palestinian#cite_note-Lewis-3)

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Definitions_of_Palestine_and_Pales tinian&action=edit&section=3)] Palestine in history and geography

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/First_century_palestine.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:First_century_palestine.gif) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:First_century_palestine.gif)
Roman Province of Iudaea. Notice the coastal province of Philistia, which the Greeks called Palaistina and the Romans Palaestina.




In historical contexts predating the British mandate of Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_mandate_of_Palestine), Palestine was mostly a geographical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic) term, particularly used in the Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire) Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) and Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language), and also other languages taking their geographical vocabulary from them. The Romans united Iudaea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iudaea_Province) with the Galilee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galilee) to form the Roman sub-province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_province) of Syria Palaestina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria_Palaestina) (encapsulating territories of ancient Canaan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan), Kingdom of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel), Judah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judah), Moab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moab), Ammon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammon), and Philistia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistia)) and thus included much of the land on both sides of the Jordan River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_River) although with further political sub-divisions along the Jordan River valley.
See also: History of Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine).
Also in geographical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic) contexts, "Palestine" is often used, as it is a distinctly unique natural unit. Rivers, vegetation and bird migration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_migration) have ignored political boundaries, while contributing to the development of the natural character of the land.
See also: Geography of the Palestinian territories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_the_Palestinian_territories) and Geography of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Israel)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_Palestine_and_Palestinian

[Don Nucka]

Blaming religion is like blaming guns. It all comes down to what the person does with it.




OK, i'll rephrase again, although my message stays.
Religious fanaticism is the #1 cause of violent death in the world.

I have no problem with organized religion other than the fact that it's not my style, and i don't mind saying that pedophile priests should be publicly flogged before handed over to The Gimp, but the problems begin when groups of people become convinced that THEIR religion is the only way. Different strokes for different folks, and all that. I have never heard of mobs of armed Buddhists or Thelemites attacking groups of people that worship a different God/Goddess or group of deities. Religious fanaticism and exclusivity (MY religion is right, YOU will burn in hell because you believe in a slightly different interpretation) are bad, not religion per se.

[SunshineDrummer]

OK, i'll rephrase again, although my message stays.
Religious fanaticism is the #1 cause of violent death in the world.

I have no problem with organized religion other than the fact that it's not my style, and i don't mind saying that pedophile priests should be publicly flogged before handed over to The Gimp, .

I have no issue with this. In fact, I'd help drag the SOBs outside for their floggings. And I wouldn't mind tar & feathers being involved either. A pedophile is a pedophile. I don't give a shit if he wears a collar or not. He's still a subhuman pices of shit.

... but the problems begin when groups of people become convinced that THEIR religion is the only way. Religious fanaticism and exclusivity (MY religion is right, YOU will burn in hell because you believe in a slightly different interpretation) are bad, not religion per se.

You hit the nail right on the head--its the extremists in any group that fuck it up for everyone else. Most folks who believe in & practice any faith don't run around telling others that they're "wrong" or "going to burn in Hell."

What really gets my back up is when assumptions are made that all members of a faith (any faith) behave in that fashion. Not all Christians are bible thumpers running around telling all the "heathens" of the world that they're going to burn. Not all Catholic priests live to sodomize little boys. Not all Muslims are interested in flying airplanes into buildings and wiping the US and Israel off the map.

[Joker]

My God rocks

Your God sucks

[SunshineDrummer]

My God rocks

Your God sucks

No, MY God rocks. Get it right. ;)

[Joker]

No, MY God rocks. Get it right. ;)Well seeing how I'm your God I believe my original statement is accurate :huh:

[Nevrmore]

Well seeing how I'm your God I believe my original statement is accurate :huh:


That settles it. I'm an atheist now. :D

((now go get Mel and I a beer, you old bitch!)) :funny1:

[Joker]

http://phoenixwoman.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/smite.jpg

[Don Nucka]

To keep myself from ever being taken over mentally by religious fanatics i have come to the conclusion that i AM God. So is everybody.

[PeaceFrog]

To keep myself from ever being taken over mentally by religious fanatics i have come to the conclusion that i AM God. So is everybody.

How can it NOT be so? Everything is made up of the same stuff, just different configurations.